The Really Useful TCM Thread

[CaliDreaming]

How many needles do you usually have in your scalp Cali? My acu always puts one right in the top of my head and I barely even feel it; as I've said before, the most painful ones for me are in my abdomen.
Also, is the info in the RL book about tongue 'health' or if not, where can I get all the info? I've only gone on what my acu has told me, and to be honest I can only really remember the bit about the redness at the front indicating emotional stress.

Well I finally started my period last night after 11 days of spotting. I've actually arranged to talk to a doctor about it because with that, my period and post-period spotting, I'm bleeding or spotting for 16/17 days in a month, which is crazy! I imagine they'll say there's not a lot they can do since I already have a FS referral, but I think I'm going to push to get my thyroid checked again (last checked in the new year when it was stable, but you neverknow) and maybe my progesterone levels should be checked again, even though they've come back fine in the past.
The whole spotting thing has really got me down this month. When I looked back at FF it's been this bad before (though this is it at it's worst) but I seem to have noticed it more this month. May be it's because of the hsg and putting all my hope in that post-hsg increased fertility. Whatever it is, I'm just glad to be on to the next cycle and planning the bd for predicted ov! And this month there will definitely be planning involved; perhaps it's a little irrational, but I just feel like I'm running out of time.

This weekend we have friends coming and I'll have to entertain a 3 year old, whilst talking to his 7 month pg mum about pregnancy and babies. I'm not looking forward to it...

Sizzles, she usually puts at least 6 to 8 needles in my scalp. It only hurts right when she pops it in and it's a mostly uncomfortable feeling. It feels like she is stabbing me with the needle and it is going through to my skull. She says those needles are important to improve the function of my hypothalamus which controls all three glands--adrenal, pituitary and thyroid.

I don't think RL writes much about the tongue. I got my information on the tongue by googling.

I hope they can find out what is causing the spotting. I think it would be a good idea to get your thyroid checked because it seems that diagnosis of thyroid issues can be tricky and your levels can change. Isn't spotting a symptom of hypothyroidism?

My deepest sympathies for you having to entertain a heavily pregnant woman and her toddler. That is the most dreaded scenario for us TTC women. Hopefully the anticipation of it will be worse than the actual visit.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Yay! I have an appointment scheduled for Sunday! Its been forever. My cycles are pretty much 45 days apart thanks to my nutrition plan. I just need my acu to help with stress. =)

 

[CaliDreaming]

Hi TurboTurtle! Glad to see you're doing so well and it's great that your cycles have become regular. That is so awesome. Hope your appointment goes well on Sunday.

 

[Sizzles]

Well I spoke to the doctor about the spotting. She listened and said she understood my frustration (although didn't actually at any point say it wasn't normal; she said 'well, everyone's different'). However, she didn't feel that there was anything else worthy of investigating, as she said my cervix had been checked and my progesterone levels had been fine on the 2 occasions they were checked; she said there was nothing to be gained in repeating this blood test. Because I'm already in the system and awaiting ivf she felt it was best just to wait and undergo the ivf. The only thing she mentioned was having a colposcopy, which she really wasn't recommending for the aforementioned reasons, but I guess she was clutching at straws. However, I've looked it up and from what I've read (ok, only on Wikipedia!) I don't think it's a relevant investigation for me, ie. spotting wasn't mentioned.

Hmm. Well I went ahead and made an appointment to have my thyroid re-checked, as I can do that without a doctors permission. The more I think about it, the more I feel I'm suffering increased symptoms again. It may be nothing, but best to rule it out. I'm also considering ringing the fertlity nurse next week to see what she says about the spotting. At least I feel a little more proactive, whilst still hanging around waiting for that elusive bfp.

Acu on Tuesday.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Sizzles, one of the other girls I talk with on bnb also has spotting - even with good progesterone. Her RE prescribed Estrogen for days 8-14 (I think). I'm not sure if you both have the same type of issues, but its worth an investigation if you are bothered by the spotting.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Well I spoke to the doctor about the spotting. She listened and said she understood my frustration (although didn't actually at any point say it wasn't normal; she said 'well, everyone's different'). However, she didn't feel that there was anything else worthy of investigating, as she said my cervix had been checked and my progesterone levels had been fine on the 2 occasions they were checked; she said there was nothing to be gained in repeating this blood test. Because I'm already in the system and awaiting ivf she felt it was best just to wait and undergo the ivf. The only thing she mentioned was having a colposcopy, which she really wasn't recommending for the aforementioned reasons, but I guess she was clutching at straws. However, I've looked it up and from what I've read (ok, only on Wikipedia!) I don't think it's a relevant investigation for me, ie. spotting wasn't mentioned.

Hmm. Well I went ahead and made an appointment to have my thyroid re-checked, as I can do that without a doctors permission. The more I think about it, the more I feel I'm suffering increased symptoms again. It may be nothing, but best to rule it out. I'm also considering ringing the fertlity nurse next week to see what she says about the spotting. At least I feel a little more proactive, whilst still hanging around waiting for that elusive bfp.

Acu on Tuesday.

Yeah I don't see how a colposcopy could possible be relevant! What on earth???? Your thyroid does seems to be the most likely culprit. From what I've been reading it seems like once you've been diagnosed with a thyroid problem you have to be watchful for the rest of your life since things can change.

 

[PoppyPainting]

Well I spoke to the doctor about the spotting. She listened and said she understood my frustration (although didn't actually at any point say it wasn't normal; she said 'well, everyone's different'). However, she didn't feel that there was anything else worthy of investigating, as she said my cervix had been checked and my progesterone levels had been fine on the 2 occasions they were checked; she said there was nothing to be gained in repeating this blood test. Because I'm already in the system and awaiting ivf she felt it was best just to wait and undergo the ivf. The only thing she mentioned was having a colposcopy, which she really wasn't recommending for the aforementioned reasons, but I guess she was clutching at straws. However, I've looked it up and from what I've read (ok, only on Wikipedia!) I don't think it's a relevant investigation for me, ie. spotting wasn't mentioned.

Hmm. Well I went ahead and made an appointment to have my thyroid re-checked, as I can do that without a doctors permission. The more I think about it, the more I feel I'm suffering increased symptoms again. It may be nothing, but best to rule it out. I'm also considering ringing the fertlity nurse next week to see what she says about the spotting. At least I feel a little more proactive, whilst still hanging around waiting for that elusive bfp.

Acu on Tuesday.

Sorry to butt in Sizzles, I used to post on this thread ages ago when I was ttc. I suffered with spotting for years and some months adding up time spotting and then actually 'on' would bleed for nearly a fortnight out of a 26 day cycle.

All tests came back normal, and docs seemed to think it wasn't worth worrying about - clearly they hadn't tried the agony of longterm ttc plus always bleeding.... Hang in there, I found accupuncture plus herbs really helped and with my accu's help the spotting was reduced to one day or none. (unfortunately I can't remember the name of the herbal tablets I had. However I caught when I hadn't been able to afford accu for several months, sometimes miracles happen.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Hi PoppyPaining, congrats on your pregnancy!!

Well today was an acu day for me, and boy was it a weird one! I told Dr. Liu that I had been feeling tired for the past three days and that in past weeks I'd have off days here and there. At first she said it could be something like the weather, but of course she did the muscle/nutrition testing and found that my thyroid still hadn't responded to the supplements. She asked how I was sleeping, and I told her I have no problem falling asleep or staying asleep but that it really doesn't feel like a deep sleep. It's like I'm unconscious, but my body is still going. Like last night, dh said I was talking in my sleep.

So then we went on to the needles and it was all the usual ones with one new one. This time I got a needle near the knuckle of my ring finger in both hands and I didn't get any needles in my ring finger or middle finger this time.
I stayed on the table for 30 minutes and then she came and got them out.

And this is when it got weird. She came in quickly and said somethng about putting needles in my ears and of course I said O.K. What she did next felt like she was piercing my upper ears and it really hurt, but I thought it was some extension of the acu. Then she puts a whole bunch of cotton balls in my ears and tells me to relax for a few minutes and then I can go.

I got up and went to the front desk. I asked her assistant what had happened, and she explained something about getting blood out of the ears because a lot of the points for the whole body are in the ears and it was necessary to help with the healing of the whole body. She took out the cotton balls and my ears were bleeding where Dr. Liu had stuck me in my ears.

She said Dr. Liu gave me two new supplements to help heal my body. One of them was an herbal remedy that will help me sleep better at night. I looked at the ingredients and noticed it had iodine in it, which I understand is a controversial supplement for people with hyperthyroid.

Honestly, I'm still a little freaked out by all this. I'm wondering if I shouldn't just hold off on the nutrition part of the treatment and wait until I get the results back from the FS.

 

[Sizzles]

Cali, that acu session really does sound weird; I'd have been freaked out and probably wouldn't have gone back! But maybe that's just where I am at the moment.

Session 12 (Tuesday)
I was running late as it was after work, whereas I usually have sessions on one of my days off. This is part of my 'reducing' acu sessions; every week has gone to every 10 days, to move to fortnightly in a couple of sessions time. So I called to say I'd be late and was 15 mins late in the end, which I was really cross about. Having said that, she's been as late for me in the past, so it's swings and roundabouts.

She asked how I was and I explained where I was in my cycle, how my last period had been and how long I'd spotted for. I told her how down I'd been about the spotting and discussed the conversation with the doctor. She sympathised, but then she's been sympathetic to the spotting all along, agreeing that it's not right. I told her I was disappointed not to have seen an improvement, having been attending acu for 3 months and she said she was too, although some women attend for 6 months to a year before having results. I didn't comment, but I did think 'that won't be me' - if it's really not having an effect, I shan't continue.' My friend asked about it this week, saying 'do you just lay there?' and 'do you fall asleep?' and as I said to her, I don't even find the whole thing that relaxing - either during, or afterwards.

She looked at my tongue and didn't comment. Took pulses and didn't comment. Then she began treatment.

Needles:
1 in scalp
1 between rib cage, mid chest
5 along pantyline
1 in left wrist
2 in right wrist (1 on outside edge and 1 on inner wrist)
1 above each knee
1 below each knee
1 half way down each lower leg
1 on each foot between my big toe and the next (on the fleshy bit)

So 18 needles in all. Now the next part I think happened partially as a result of me arriving late and partially because she feels sorry for me/really wanted to have a big push on maximising the effects of the session. She put the needles in (incidentally, they weren't too painful this time, but as usual it was the tummy ones causing more discomfort: I could feel 'movement' internally, presumably the energies flowing) then she went off and returned, saying she was going to start a session with another patient in a different room, so I could rest for longer and wouldn't need to be rushed. She said she'd come back and apply moxa. So she went off and I guess I had the needles alone for 25 minutes?? She came back and put moxa on the tummy needles, which only seemed to be warm for about 5 minutes, but I lay there long after the moxa had burnt, so I think I actually had needles for towards 45 minutes this time.

I was there for 1 hour altogether, whereas my sessions are usually 45 minutes. Having said that, I didn't feel any different for having a longer session.

Oh, another weird thing! After she'd put the needles in, she sat writing notes for a while before going to the other patient. After I'd been laying 'relaxing' for about 5 minutes she came right out and asked 'Have you been tested for endometriosis?' to which I replied with all the investigations I'd had, saying I didn't know which would be most likely to show the endo and that practitioners had asked various Qs to determine whether it was endo and felt that it wasn't. I'd told her I was considering phoning the fertility nurse (one of her 2 phone-in sessions is today, so I'll look into that) and she said I definitely should and to talk about the spotting, but also in relation to potentila endo and see what she says. It's got me a bit worried, but I'd have thought someone would have found something - either physiological or through answers to their Qs, which would have made someone investigate further if they thought I had endo.

My blood test for my thyroid is this afternoon and I'm going to ask if they can check my blood count. My acu lady wants me to take a natural iron tonic, but I can't remember the name, and I'd rather wait until I have my blood results before embarking on yet another thing.

It's half term for me now, so even more of a rest than my p/t hours! Plus I should ov early next week (Tuesday I think), but I completely forgot to use my cbfm this month, so I'm going on ewcm and ov pain. In a way, I'm kind of pleased I forgot about it; we can just go with the flow a bit more.

 

[Sizzles]

I've spoken to the fertility nurse and she agreed that the levels of spotting I'm experiencing sound 'odd'. She said the bleeding could be caused by a polyp, but then went on to say that because I had the hsg on cd3 they'd have spotted it, so it's unlikely. She asked whether my smears were up to date, but then said that because the spotting wasn't post-intercourse, it wasn't likely to be linked to that. When I told her I was getting the thyroid checked she said the spotting could be caused by that, but equally, I was spotting last time it was checked and it came back normal, so I don't know about that. Any way, she finally said that she would speak to the consultant and get back to me when she'd raised it with him. She still maintained that it was unlikely to be endo since I don't have severe symptoms, but that a laparoscopy would be needed in order to rule it out - but that they probably won't do that. So now I wait and see what she comes back with, though it sounds like it won't be until at least next week.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, that must have been really frightening when the acu asked if you had endometriosis. I know it's possible to have it and not have symptoms of it, but to confirm it would mean a lap and that's major surgery. I'm glad that your docs are not pushing you to do that because the benefits of it are questionable.

I think you are on the right track to push for further testing of your thyroid. What tests did they run for your thyroid?? I know from my own circumstance that even if a doctor says your results were "normal" that is usually far from the end of the story.

 

[Sizzles]

Well I know I have an underactive thyroid and I'm medicating for it, but sometimes it can go 'unstable' for no apparent reason, which is what my thinking is at the moment. I'll make sure I get the actual results so I can consult with my other doctor: Doctor Google! The endo thing does bother me. These are the symptoms listed online:


painful or heavy periods
pain in the lower abdomen (tummy), pelvis or lower back
pain during sexual intercourse
bleeding between periods
fertility problems

I often have painful, if not heavy, periods.
I have bleeding between periods, in the form of all the damn spotting!
Oh, and I appear to have fertility problems!

How can that not be worth considering? I don't want surgery, but I do want answers and I do want a baby. Surely that's not too much to ask!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Oh wow, it does seem like you have many of the symptoms of endo. I wonder why your doc dismissed it so quickly?

 

[Sizzles]

It's not like it's just one doctor either; there were 2 GPs, 2 fertility nurses and a consultant. one of the nurses is the one I've spoken to today, who still thinks it's unlikely.
I went on to read online that many women with endo don't even have symptoms! Well that doesn't follow what she said either!

I've had the blood tests and I asked them to check my blood count too, so next week I should get the results. I'm kind of hoping my thyroid is squiffy because otherwise I think there must be something wrong with me to feel like this all the time!

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Those are the same symptoms of PCOS. Have they ruled that out as well? Sometimes PCOS and Endo can mimic each other. It could be something simple. Try not to get too frustrated.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Also, thyroid meds have to be adjusted frequently. Don't take them with iron or calcium or even within 4 hours of taking them. I'm betting you just need to regulate your thyroid stuff.

 

[FireBaby]

Cali - I'm kind of annoyed with my acu at the moment too. She's so expensive and she spends so little time explaining what the herbs are etc.
When I went yesterday she looked at my charts and said they were not good (too choppy -like a sawtooth) and said that it was because I wasn't taking her herbs that month. She also asked if I had blocked tubes which has sent me on a crazy freakout. I mean a month ago she said my charts were perfect and now she's asking me if my tubes are blocked. The problem is she doesn't know and I think when an acupuncturist tries to make a diagnosis without getting real tests done they are grasping at straws. They just don't know. What happens if they aren't intuitive about something that day? My intuition can be off sometimes, I mean hell I think I'm preggy for 2 weeks out of every month
Anyway enough ranting. I'm also annoyed because I have a hemorrhoid and she told me it was because I have too much 'heat' in my body. The last time I went there was too much 'dampness'. Feeling fed up with the whole thing today!
Not gonna take my prenatal for a few days until this 'roid clears up. boo hoo
Apologies for just jumping on and ranting!!

 

[Sizzles]

Those are the same symptoms of PCOS. Have they ruled that out as well? Sometimes PCOS and Endo can mimic each other. It could be something simple. Try not to get too frustrated.

Also, thyroid meds have to be adjusted frequently. Don't take them with iron or calcium or even within 4 hours of taking them. I'm betting you just need to regulate your thyroid stuff.

You worried me there for a moment! But I've looked up pcos (must've looked it up ages ago as well) and the only symptom I seem to have is infertility! I do get regular periods, it's just that I also get all the spotting alongside it. Also I've had an internal exam and transvaginal scan, ultrasound scan and hsg - wouldn't one or more have shown pcos? Plus, blood tests show that I do ov (and I feel it every month) which pcos sufferers don't seem to as much. Any way, I hear ya, but I don't think it's pcos. It's most likely to be the thyroid. In recent weeks I've been taking my thyroid meds at a different time to the prenatal vitamins, but prior to that I'd been taking them together in the morning, so maybe the iron has been preventing the absorbtion of the thyroid drugs - although I'd have thought it would have regulated again by now as it's been at least a month that I've been taking them separately. Ah well, I'll just have to see what the blood tests come back as.

Firebaby - the situation with your acu sounds really annoying. Your 'blocked tubes' question is a bit like when mine asked if endo had been ruled out; kind of knocks you sideways for a moment! I do sometimes feel as if she's making it up as she goes along. That's not to say I think it's a sham in any way, I really do think she's trying her best to fix me, but the one cycle my spotting was way reduced, she was very positive and attributing it to the acu, but then the next 2 months have been as bad as ever!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, I really hope it is your thyroid instead of endo. I think it's more likely to be your thyroid since it seems any sort of change can affect that. I know this must be an emotional roller coaster to go from worrying about endo to PCOS to your thyroid!



Firebaby, that is exactly what I hated about my old acu. She wouldn't explain anything and it got to the point where it was clear she didn't know what was going on. I wouldn't have held it against her as much if she had just said that she didn't know what was going on and recommended that I seek another opinion, but instead she just seemed to be experimenting. She also used to tell me at random times that I had too much heat and at others that I had too much dampness. It drove me crazy because she would tell me every single time to cut down on my dairy consumptom, because that leads to dampness. However, I would tell her over and over again that I hardly ever eat any dairy.

Anyway, sometimes it's just a matter of finding someone you're comfortable with. Dr. Liu turned out to be everything I wanted in an acu. I think she is a perfect complement to the FS I'm seeing.

As for me, my problems with fatigue have just gotten worse. Yesterday I was really tired and my muscles were aching. I took my temp lastnight and I had a low grade fever. I looked so out of it, dh wanted me to go to the ER but I didn't think fatigue was an ER worthy symptom. I'm pretty sure this is not due to a bfp because yesterday morning my temp fell to a little below coverline and I am feeling cramps like AF is on her way. The muscle aches and fever are gone, but I still feel extremely fatigued. I've decided to cut out all of the supplements recommended by Dr. Liu for now because I'm a little worried that if I have a thyroid condition, they may be making things worse. Or I may be overdosing on a particular vitamin or something. I have one more week until my test results come back to see if I in fact have a thyroid problem and that day cannot come soon enough. In the meanwhile, I am miserable and PMSy.

 

[FireBaby]

Cali - so sorry to hear you are feeling so crappy sounds like its a good idea to cut out the herbs for the moment. Herbs can be really strong - so when they prescribe them without a complete picture of your diagnosis it could throw you out. I know you probably mentioned it in a post before but did your thyroid tests come out normal?

Sizzles I hope you can get to the bottom of what is going on it sounds like you do not have PCOS.

Even though I'm annoyed with my acu I have to admit that since I started taking her herbs again my pre Ov temps have gone down to normal again for the past 2 days (they were spiking kind of high and I was getting night sweats) I'm willing to give her herbs another month and see if my temps even out again like they did during the month I was on her herbs. And then I guess I'll just have to suck it up and take them until I get a BFP, even if it does seem a bit like I am on some kind of herbal drug!