The Really Useful TCM Thread

[CaliDreaming]

Cali - I had the needles in my fingers as well this week.

I just went in for my second session before I Ov tomorrow.

The acu at the community one does a different technique to my other acu - she gets me to press on different parts of my abdomen and find the knotted or sore bits then she pinches certain areas on my feet and legs and asks me if the pain lessens in my tummy - when it does she puts the needles into those corresponding areas on my legs and feet. It took a bit of getting use to understand it and get my brain to tune into my body but I think I got the hang of what she was doing and the session felt really powerful. She didn't use pulse at all which was interesting.

It's really interesting to hear about different methods acus use. My new acu hasn't looked at my tongue or taken my pulse yet, but seems to get her info from the muscle testing.

I'm really curious about what the finger points are for.

Session 10 (wow! That means I've spent LOADS on acu!)

I had a pleasant and quite relaxing acu session today (following last week where I stressed that the moxa was burning me!) and acu lady was pretty positive.

She checked my tongue and said it was looking much healthier. When I probed her about how it looked healthier she told me the colour was generally better and the redness at the front (linked to emotions) had gone. Also something to do with a coating that had previously been there had gone.
She felt my pulses and seemed to spend a while over one of them. She then did the needle bit. She put 2 in my back this time, which is a first! When I asked what they were for she said they were in relation to my kidneys and that sometimes something in the pulse is just right for using these points (which is why she'd spent a while on the pulses).

So, 2 in my back (1 either side), 2 in my right ear (upper and lower), 1 in the top of my scalp and 1 in the forehead as has become usual. I then had 2 on my inner right wrist and 1 on the left, 3 in my abdomen (I think it was 3 - could've been 4; I can never sit up to look as the strain in the muscles to do that makes the needles hurt!) then a few in various points down my legs and on my feet. I think I counted 20 needles when they were removed.

When she felt my pulses again she seemed pleased and said they'd improved. She also burnt moxa on my abdomen again, although she hadn't felt my abdomen first which she sometimes does.

None of the needles were too painful this time, although a few hurt 'on entry' - I really don't like that bit and find the tummy ones the worst! I was able to lay back and relax for the whole time and have felt quite positive about things. That's not to say I think 'this is it' this month, but I generally just feel ok about things.

4dpo today and due to see her again next week when I'll be 11dpo.

I wonder what the back needles were for. I know I always get excited when they use a point they haven't used before!

She said the back needles were for my kidneys as the kidneys are responsible for fertility (hence 'kidney yang' etc.) When she asked me to sit up and said she would use some points in my back, I was like 'Interesting'. Then she said I could lay back down and I think I probably looked at her as if she was mad! Lay down on the needles? What! Any way, she reassured me that the needles are 'bendy' and that it would be fine, and sure enough I didn't feel anything. I told her I'd had visions of them stabbing me and going into my body!
I was quite excited for her to be using new points as well!

That is good to know that the needles can't go all the way through and stab you. I would have been reluctant to lay down on them too!

 

[FireBaby]

wow that lying on the needles thing is really interesting!! I am so glad they can't go through you....
Some woman who I use to work with had her lung collapse after she had acupuncture done by a GP who stuck a whole lot of needles in her lung area. Oooops.

I have this ridiculous fear that I get everytime I am lying down on the acu bed with needles in me - that what if there was an earthquake and things fell on top of me and the needles got pushed in and then I would have to get up and pull the needles out of me and take cover. Ridiculous I know!!

 

[CaliDreaming]

wow that lying on the needles thing is really interesting!! I am so glad they can't go through you....
Some women who I use to work with had her lung collapse after she had acupuncture done by a GP who stuck a whole lot of needles in her lung area. Oooops.

I have this ridiculous fear that I get everytime I am lying down on the acu bed with needles in me - that what if there was an earthquake and things fell on top of me and the needles got pushed in and then I would have to get up and pull the needles out of me and take cover. Ridiculous I know!!

OMG on the woman who had her lung collapsed!

I can't stop LOLing about your fear of the needles getting pushed in you in an earthquake. See, I'd be so worried about getting crushed I wouldn't be thinking about the needles at all.

 

[CaliDreaming]

I had a pretty routine visit today. She started off with the muscle testing and everything was perfect except my thyroid, but she said it was improving. Then she went on to the acu. She used the usual points except instead of the needles along my panty line, she placed the needles closer to my belly button. I wonder what the reasoning behind the placement is. The needles in my belly were hooked to the electricity.

She also placed a needle in my left ring finger and two in my right thumb. I found out what one in my right thumb is for because it hurt like HELL this time for some reason. When I told her it hurt, she said that it was a point for the uterus. To my surprise, she did NOT take the needle out but instead just massaged my hand a little. My old acu would always reposition the needle if it felt the slightest bit uncomfortable, but I guess Dr. Liu is a believer in making her patients take their medicine. The point kind of throbbed for two or three minutes, and then the pain went away completely.

Dr. Liu also put a needle in my breast bone which she described as a "happy" point.

I lay on the table for a while and when she returned, she asked if the pain in my thumb had gone away and I told her it had. She then explained that the pain was due to tension and it was good that the pain had gone away.

We went over my eating, which has not been good lately, and she stressed that I needed to be sure to eat protein with every meal and to cut down on my carbs. I see her again tomorrow one last time before I O.

 

[FireBaby]

Cali have you read that Randine Lewis book? I looked at the acu points in it that she recommends and the one below your belly button is called the 'conception' point. My acu used this point last time before I Ov this cycle.

She also did that breast bone point but on the right side - I didn't ask her what it was for maybe it was a happy point too

 

[CaliDreaming]

Cali have you read that Randine Lewis book? I looked at the acu points in it that she recommends and the one below your belly button is called the 'conception' point. My acu used this point last time before I Ov this cycle.

She also did that breast bone point but on the right side - I didn't ask her what it was for maybe it was a happy point too

Yes I have Randine Lewis' book. My old acu only used points that were in that book, but my new one uses points I have a hard one finding on the internet.

My acu used the conception point and two on either side of my belly button. My old acu used to use it a lot too. I hope it starts living up to it's name pretty soon.

 

[FireBaby]

Hey Cali in that book did you see that point called something like 'calling the not yet conceived baby' I dont have the book in front of me right now so I'm not getting it exactly right but that was the gist of the name......? It was a point on the left shoulder blade. I thought it sounded really cute! Like baby dust!!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Yeah I remember that one. It was such a beautiful description! I always wish my acu would use that one.

I had yet another acu appointment today before I O and then I will just go once a week before I go to the poorhouse. She used the same needles as yesterday, except she put two more needles in my abdomen in addition to the ones in my belly button. These two were near my pantyline. She also put the needles in my thumb and they did not hurt this time. She said that it usually hurts when your channels get blocked up--so good to know that my energy is flowing freely.

I had a nice relaxing time on the table. I didn't fall asleep but I felt like I was floating on a little cloud. I was so sad when my time was up.

Tomorrow I have my appt with the FS! I am so nervous I almost want to cancel it.

 

[FireBaby]

Good luck tomorrow with the FS! Don't be nervous! Its exciting you are getting closer and closer to your next BFP with every doctor/discovery you make about your body.

I am going to the community acu again this afternoon - I'm feeling so lethargic and I also know we didn't BD at the right time this month - so I am out - and kinda bummed out - so I need something to pick me up.

I am going to ask her about that 'calling the soul of the unconceived child' point and I'll report back on it.

 

[FireBaby]

So quick update on my session yesterday -

I took in the Randine Lewis book and showed her that point - 'calling to the soul of the unconceived child' and she said that she had planned an acupuncture pattern for me today that would use similar points to this one but that the ones she would use would be located on my arms.

She also put needles in my ears and legs and always the one in between my eyebrows. For the first time I wasn't able to fall asleep while I was on the table, my mind seemed to be churning and the needles in my ears seemed to be throbbing and keeping me awake/not relaxed.

I've noticed that after Ov I tend to get kind of lethargic. I've been having that for a few days...I told the acu about this - not sure if she did any needles for it though.

She also gave me some luteal phase herbs - they are prepackaged ones called Yuan Support Formula. I just looked up the herbs on the ingredient list and they seem to be fine. My temps have been a little bit low this phase so I'm not sure if its related to the tiredness I am feeling.....

 

[CaliDreaming]

Firebaby, sounds like you had a great acu appt! Did she tell you what that point actually does? It's good to know that other points do the same thing though. I just wish they had a cooler name!

My old acu used to use the point between the eyebrows and I really miss it. Dr. Liu uses a whole bunch of points on my scalp that don't feel all that great going in.

That's so good that you can fall asleep. I get relaxed but not enough to fall asleep. I always wish I could turn over on my side because I can't fall asleep on my back unless I'm dead dog tired.

 

[Sizzles]

I can't sleep on my back either; tend to sleep on my front, which even though I now know the needles are 'bendy', I'd rather not be lying on ALL of them! I very rarely feel that relaxed on the table - certainly not to the point of falling asleep; how lovely to have a little cat nap in the day!

Cali - lots of luck for your appointment today. Hope it goes well. Look forward to hearing all about it...

I have acu this morning, so will be back later on to report back!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, the FS appointment went well! Even though I didn't have a scan or anything, I felt a lot better about my chances. I had my blood drawn to check hormone levels and I go back in a month to have those checked. I am to have an HSG test in two weeks after AF shows.

She told me a whole bunch of things I already figured out on my own, but it still felt really good to hear it from a doctor. She said that she thought it was unlikely that my tubes are blocked since I had dd not too long ago and no pain or infections since and that it was unlikely that dh has a problem with sperm since he was able to get both me and his ex wife pregnant with no problems. So that leaves hormones and age related stuff.

The appointment really helped me focus on my TTC gameplan. After this appointment, I don't believe I will do an IUI or IVF. It's just way too much money for us to divert away from dd. Since it's unlikely we have a major tubal or sperm problem, I am confident that acu can get me to conceive. What I want out of my time with the FS is just to know that it is still possilble, even if it takes time.

Also, last night was our 3rd anniversary. We went out to dinner and had to take dd with us because we don't have a sitter. I felt O pains last night and they were stronger than ever. I'm really happy because I felt it really strongly on the left side this time. I usually don't feel anything on the left side so this is a good sign that my ovulation is becoming stronger. I'm not sure if it was the acu or the supplements, but I think something is changing in my body.

Can't wait to hear how your appt went this morning!

 

[Sizzles]

Great to hear your FS appointment went so well Cali. Sounds like you're making a plan and that's a really positive thing.

My appointment was ok. Not the positive experience of last week, but ok none the less.

Session 11

So she started out by asking how I was and I told her I was fine, but spotting (I'm 11dpo and it started at 6dpo). She looked back over her notes then asked whether any of the medical professionals had suggested cause for concern, which I told her they hadn't (actually, we'd had this conversation before, but never mind) and that I really felt it couldn't be normal, but didn't understand how at least 4 medical professionals felt it was ok. I went on to say that I was worried that if I spot from so early on, no potential fertilised egg would even have chance to implant if my uterine wall was shedding. She took on board my concerns, but said that it might not hinder a pregnancy, but I feel that we're both clutching at straws a little to make that assumption.

She looked at my tongue and said it's a little red at the front (emotional stuff) but not as bad as it has been, and it doesn't look too bad. She also felt my pulses but didn't comment on them, so no 'slippery' pulse for me.

I had 18 needles today: 1 in my scalp, 1 in my forehead, 2 in my right ear (one upper cartilege (sp?); the other just inside), 1 in my right wrist, 2 in my left, 3 in my tummy, then pairs of them down my legs at inner knee, fleshy part above and inside of knee, inner shins/ankles and big toes.

She then said to me she was going to use moxa on my big toes, so I joked 'did I have cold toes to go with my cold uterus?!' she said she just wanted to get some heat in there and from there it would travel up the channels. She also used moxa on my pantyline points. You'll be pleased to hear none of it burnt me today!

I was quite relaxed today; warm enough and not in particular discomfort from any of the needles.

She told me she was working on invigorating the blood and balancing hormones and would work on keeping the blood in, rather than 'leaking'! To be honest I think she seemed pretty bummed by the spotting - there was a definite negative vibe about the whole thing. She actually asked if i was ok and squeezed my arm when I was on the table - a sort of pitying look in her eyes. It kind of made me feel broken!

At the end of the session I asked her about swimming: I'd quite like to start going once a week as I do no proper exercise (though I'm fairly active, so it's not all bad!) but worry that with my cold uterus, it might not be ideal. She said it should be fine so long as I warmed straight up afterwards and she felt that the positives would out-weigh the negatives. I figure my heat-pad thing is still warm over an hour after it's been microwaved, so I could take it 'fully loaded', leave it in the car, then put it on my as I drive home.

I also told her I'd be cutting back on my sessions as I can't sustain weekly appointments at £40 each. She seemed very understanding (I refer you back to the fact that I think she feels a little at a loss to know what to do next for me!) She told me the best times of the month to come would be pre-ov and once I'm spotting (grrr!). So for the next 3 appointments I'm going every 10 days (as it works well with school holidays coming up), then it'll be fortnightly thereafter. I kind of feel that I've spent nearly £500 for seemingly nothing; it's not even like I feel particularly relaxed when I'm there or afterwards, or particuarlly energised. It's more like I just pay £40 to have random holes put in me and spots put on me for no apparent reason.

Sorry for the downer. Hopefully you understand: you guys know what it's like to keep hitting that brick wall! I'm sure I'll be fine again soon: in a weeks time if not before as I'll be on to the next cycle and through af by then.
Have a good weekend everyone!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, you sound just like how I feeling about my acu. I know what you mean about that pitying kind of look and demeanor. I thought my acu felt sorry for me and that my problem was so big that it could not be fixed. Now I think she just did not have the knowledge or experience to deal with my problem and didn't want to tell me that she didn't know. She just kept doing the same thing over and over even when nothing was changing because that is all she knew to do. At some points I think she just started guessing because she didn't know what was happening.

Is your acu actually a doctor, or just an acupuncturist, because I'm learning that there is a difference. My old acu was just a licensed acupuncturist, but Dr. Liu is an actual O.Md (Doctor of Oriental Medicine). I think that there are some problems that are really straightforward and don't require a medical degree, but then there are others that are more nuanced.

If Dr. Liu is right that my problem lies with my thyroid and adrenals, then that is a problem that is very fixable, but requires someone with specialized training because it is so tricky, so it might be that my old acu was over her head.

Have you thought about looking for another acu??

 

[Sizzles]

To be honest I don't think I'll bother looking for another acu. I had one last summer (admittedly only for 5 or 6 weeks) and gave her up as a) OH hadn't done SA then and I figured it was a waste of money if we discovered the problem was with him, and b) I wasn't entirely convinced she knew what she was doing and she'd only qualified as an acu about 2 or 3 years earlier. I have to say that both, to some extent, have been chosen for practical reasons, although this current one does have experience of fertility whereas the other I don't think did.

Mine isn't a doctor, but she used to be a Western nurse, so she does have Western experience to work alongside her TCM. To find a doctor of Chinese medicine, or someone more experienced in fertility specialisms, I'd have to travel much further, and to be honest I don't think I'm prepared to spend time and money on travel when I'll still be paying out at least what I'm paying now. I'm kind of just riding the waves until IVF in the new year I guess. That's part of the reason I'm still going, because if I have IVF I shall probably have TCM treatment alongside it as it's reputed to be beneficial. At the moment though, I'm on the verge of jacking it in anyway. I'll give it another cycle I think and see how I feel.

 

[FireBaby]

Sizzles - I hear you on the cost of Acu - I calculated that I've spent over $1000 on treatments from the fertility acu. I stopped going to her and started going to the community one recently and more regularly, however I have noticed that my body seems to 'miss' the herbs that the fertility acu was prescribing. Although I think that the acu part of the treatment from the community place is definitely comparable if not better.

I'm in my luteal phase now 6dpo and haven't taken her herbs since I ovulated and my temps seem to be struggling to stay up past 98.0. This bums me out because I don't feel like going back and spending money on the other acu again, but if my temps can't sustain then I don't know what else to do.... because my insurance is too crappy for me to consider going to an RE or fertility specialist, plus I'd really like to give natural fixes a go first....

CaliDreaming - she said that point was to do with "grief" I will bug her more the next time I go and ask her. I just love this idea that babies exist in some kind of 'spirit' form before they are conceived and we can call them and be like 'hey you, you looking for a mama? Well whatdya say you wanna consider me?'

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles that makes total sense since you're going to be doing IVF. Even though your acus couldn't stop your spotting, I'm sure their efforts will make your IVF a success.

 

[CaliDreaming]

I had my weekly acu appointment today and muscle/nutrition testing. Uterus and ovaries are still very strong. Thyroid is still weak, Adrenals had been strong last week, but they were a little weak this week. I am not sure what would have caused that setback, but it would explain the changes in my tongue and other changes I had been noticing. The back of my tongue lost all of its coating, which is a sign of something going on with the kidneys/adrenals. Also, I've felt some mild palpitations/heart beating lately, like I just drunk some coffee. My guess is that something is changing with respect to my thyroid, and that it's also affecting my adrenals. It's interesting that although Dr. Liu doesn't check my tongue, her muscle nutrition testing syncs up with what I know about TCM tongue analysis.

The acupuncture itself was routine. I was not very relaxed this week, which may have something to do with my adrenals. I had very few needles this time and none of them hurt. I had the three on each shin with electrodes, one needle each on the top of the foot between big toe and second toe, one each on the edge of the ear, one in the left ring finger, two in the right thumb, one needle on my right hand in between my thumb and index finger, and finally, the needles I hate on my scalp.

I told Dr. Liu about my visit with the FS, and she said she would be interested in my blood tests for TSH and thyroid antibodies. She said that she treats a lot of women for thyroid problems, and that she has suffered from it herself. We talked a little about it and she asked me if I drank coffee. I said I used to but gave it up cold turkey to TTC. I asked her if I would have to give it up completely if I were hyperthyroid and she said maybe not if I could get it stable. That made me very happy because I miss my coffee SO much.

After she had gotten out the needles she massaged my arms and lower legs. The way she does the lower legs really hurts and I'm not sure what it is for. That was it and I see her next week!

 

[Sizzles]

How many needles do you usually have in your scalp Cali? My acu always puts one right in the top of my head and I barely even feel it; as I've said before, the most painful ones for me are in my abdomen.
Also, is the info in the RL book about tongue 'health' or if not, where can I get all the info? I've only gone on what my acu has told me, and to be honest I can only really remember the bit about the redness at the front indicating emotional stress.

Well I finally started my period last night after 11 days of spotting. I've actually arranged to talk to a doctor about it because with that, my period and post-period spotting, I'm bleeding or spotting for 16/17 days in a month, which is crazy! I imagine they'll say there's not a lot they can do since I already have a FS referral, but I think I'm going to push to get my thyroid checked again (last checked in the new year when it was stable, but you neverknow) and maybe my progesterone levels should be checked again, even though they've come back fine in the past.
The whole spotting thing has really got me down this month. When I looked back at FF it's been this bad before (though this is it at it's worst) but I seem to have noticed it more this month. May be it's because of the hsg and putting all my hope in that post-hsg increased fertility. Whatever it is, I'm just glad to be on to the next cycle and planning the bd for predicted ov! And this month there will definitely be planning involved; perhaps it's a little irrational, but I just feel like I'm running out of time.

This weekend we have friends coming and I'll have to entertain a 3 year old, whilst talking to his 7 month pg mum about pregnancy and babies. I'm not looking forward to it...