Underhand tactics - formula companies

[aob1013]

Personally, i don't think artificial feeding should be easily promoted to pregnant women, or be easily available. I believe deterring people from artificial feeding from the moment they are pregnant, whether that be no advertising etc would encourage alot more Mum's to just give it a go. Artificial feeding is too easily available these days, and these companies know that.

They make no money from breastfeeding

my point isnt that the term 'artificial' is technically accurate, its the tone in which this post was made.. using the word artificial SO many times in a short sentence, and saying that FF shouldnt be easily available.... what do u suggest happened to my daughter, who at 2 days old was having photo therapy for severe jaundice, and i was pumping constantly but not yet producing enough fluid to help her? what do you suggest happened when after months upon months of exclusive pumping, my milk finally ran out and I couldnt keep up with her? What about mums who have been sexually abused, and literally cannot cope with the thought of breast feeding? what about mums who have had their breasts removed? what about mums whos life depends on them taking medication which means that they cannot breast feed? you need to think about these women before making such off hand sweeping statements, the world is full of women not breastfeeding for these reasons, nothing to do with just 'deciding' they fancy the idea of FF more.. where do you suggest these ladies get their milk from? hould we take a 3 day camel ride while beating ourselves with wire brushes?
ive noticed this in a number of your posts tbh, you make these dramatic statements, which are actually only based on your own little experience, and have no consideration of the bigger picture at all. the world is a HUGE place, filled with lots of different people and circumstances, almost no 2 people have the same experience, ever, so really, its not all as easy as oh i BF because its clearly best.

as for the statement that its just 'too easily available these days' are you for real? when i stopped pumping, my daughter NEEDED formula to stay alive, are you suggesting that i shouldnt have been able to go to tesco to buy her milk? when you get to weaning stage are you going to start suggesting that jars & packets of baby food be banned from supermarkets, as we all know that home made organic is best for our babies!????

u think no formula advertising would increase the amount of BF mums? is there actually a SINGLE mum reading this who has never heard the 'breast is best' statement?

I didn't have time to go into detail when i wrote that post so i will try and elaborate on it here - as i think you have the wrong end of the stick.

Firstly, this is the internet, no emotional tone or body language is used so the way you may read something may be entirely different to the way i mean it.
I also wanted to point out that i know what it is like to have a premature baby, pumpig constantly, and having a child constantly under a billibed, being physically seperated etc .. i know how hard it actually is to breastfeed when your child is in those conditions.
When i said i don't think artificial milk should be so easily available, i mean't that for first time Mum's that are stil unsure of what to do, or are uneducated in how to feed their child, breast milk should be promoted as much as possible .. do you know what i mean? Of course for women that have great difficulties or medically cannot breastfeed artificial milk should be easily available to them, along with emotional support. In SCBU i met may women that had their babies more prematurely than i had Leni, 25 weekers, 28 weekers the majority just couldn't breastfeed - so believe me i do have alot of respect for these women, they had no choice - and in THAT instance artificial milk should be available to them along with lots of support, which the neonatal nurses are fab at doing, by the way.

So just to clarify, i think that a Mum with every chance of breastfeeding successfully, breastfeeding should be promoted, and information on artificial feeding less so .. and for Mum's of premature babies, Mum's medically restricted, Mum's that for whatever reason cannot breastfeed should be given all the medical and emotional support they need, with all the information, leaflets and guidance that they need, because women that artificially feed need the support just as much as breastfeeders.

Of course what i say is based on my 'little experiences' just like what you say is based on your 'little experiences' .. that is how we make our own beliefs and opinions in life. I don't take back what i said, as i mean't well, i just think i didn't word it properly, and i apologise for that as i'm terrible with words at times.

At the end of the day, there are of course exceptions to the rule that 'breast is best' as we are real people in the real world, and some people just cannot breastfeed, but the majority can, so overall that is why the health professionals and government promote breastfeeding so much, it's not a bad thing, they aren't trying to piss anyone off, it's just what is best for the baby. BUT, artificial milk these days is brilliant, and kept Leni alive for the first hours of his life .. so i am not a formula hater at all, i'm grateful - it's just that breastmilk would of course be the first choice before formula which is why i wrote the statement that i did, i wrote it that in the ideal world, everyone would breastfeed .. do you know what i mean?!

I'm not explaining this well, sorry

x

 

[Jolinar]

You know, I think we can all agree on one thing. We're each doing what's best for our babies, whatever that might entail.

 

[trumpetbum]

Could the gastroenteritis bill also be reduced by providing proper information about how to make up feeds safely? Gastroenteritis/bacterial infections from non sterile milk powders rates can be drastically reduced by making up formula one at a time with water over 70 degrees. Because of the lack of proper information about how to safely make up feeds many people don't know this, continue to make up feeds with cooled water and then sometimes go onto store them and this massively increases the risk of infections from formula - by about 100,000 times I believe. Proper information about formula would greatly reduce the costs to the NHS.

I'm sure they could on a smaller but still very significant way. I think this is outlined in a previous post of mine in which UNICEF stated that only 13% of feeds (at the time of publication) were made up properly. Since that publication new guidelines have been brought in by the NHS regarding the preparation of formula which appear to be getting out there as there have been numerous posts on this board discussing whether following the new guidelines is necessary ( a whole other debate I think ), especially from mothers for whom the new guidelines are a change from the ones given with previous children.

The 50 million estimation is based, however on the evidence that breastmilk provides a unique environment in the gut which cannot be recreated even with meticulously prepared formula which would still leave the gut suspectible to gastro intestinal infection.

The ideal, I think would be a combination of increased breastfeeding rates and clearly accessible information on safe formula use.

 

[AppleBlossom]

You know, I think we can all agree on one thing. We're each doing what's best for our babies, whatever that might entail.

That's not good enough for some people though going to leave this thread now as I'm getting a bit bored of all the internet quotes and the fact this is going round in circles...

 

[clara123]

I don't think some of you are giving new mums enough respect or credit- you're implying that they are so easily led and influenced by this ad, etc.

I'm pretty sure that most mums will do what is best for their babies- be that breast feeding or formula feeding.

I formula fed both my children and was not influenced at all by any ads. I of course have been told by the world and his dog that breast is best, but I justcouldnt breastfeed. And I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about that. My kids are my world and I'd do anything for them. I'm a good mum regardless of whether I breast feed.

Some people need to get off their high horse and stop judging people on how they feed their babies.

 

[trumpetbum]

Have SMA done something against the law with this ad
If they have not then I dont really see the problem

I think the objection in the OP is that they have concocted ways of getting around the law and in doing so undermined the aims of the legislation in the first place. Of course that then leads to debate over whether the law should exist in the first place, wether it goes far enough, what undermining the law means to the health of the country as a whole and whatever else pops into peoples heads when it comes to these discussions

 

[bubbles123]

In Scandinavia (Denmark, Sweden and Finland) follow-on milk promotion is not allowed We would need to adopt a Swedish level of support (constant, free access to lactation consultants and much, much more support besides) to even begin to restrict formula sales. But this would cost money, which people don't like to spend. But unfortunately the UK always tries to take the easy (cheap) way out. It's like people drink too much - lets tax the alcohol companies! Yes, that'll stop them without giving any thought to why people drink. People don't BF! Lets get the formula companies! That'll help. Sigh.

In Scandinavia (Denmark, Sweden and Finland) follow-on milk promotion is not permitted in a combination of legislative and voluntary measures, as is my understanding.
I wouldn't argue that sales should be restricted but if we are looking at these countries as examples of what works, then restricting promotion does seem to help. The word cheap has come up several time, but money has to be found somewhere to implement this level of support. Perhaps Sweden and countries like her enjoy the extra resources which can be saved in healthcare where breastfeeding numbers are increased.

Scandinavia have some of the highest rates of tax in the world - that's why they have such high standards of general healthcare. They also pay additional fees to see doctors and be admitted to hospital so their state health care has much more money than ours, meaning they can afford to pay for extra breast feeding support. I do agree however that there may be a place for restricted advertising but another way to look at it is that follow on milk, pregnancy clubs etc etc are a product of the advertising ban. In America where you can advertise there is no such thing as follow on milk as far as I know. Maybe the answer is to allow heavily restricted first milk advertising, then you allow formula companies to have brand recognition so they don't need to develop new milks or look for underhand ways to get their brands known. Just an idea

 

[trumpetbum]

To be honest, I don't understand why everyones so bothered about formula milk. If you want to breastfeed. Great. If you want to formula feed, great! Why are we all so concerned about breast being best. It's nothing to do with you how other people feed their baby.

Be it formula milk or breastmilk. We're all aware of the benefits of breastmilk. Well done the NHS. We can all make our own decisions. Why is everyone so concerned with the fact that breastfeeding figures are falling etc?! Just curious?!

I can only answer for myself, but the issue of interest to me because public health is of interest to me. Poor breastfeeding figures relates to poorer health in general which relates to allocation of funding and resources. Again, of personal interest to me.
If all babies were breastfed for the first 3 months (and I'm not implying that ALL babies can be breastfed or implying anything negative about anyone who chose not to) it is estimated that the NHS would save over 50 million a year on gastroenteritis treatment alone. So anyone in the UK with any opinion on NHS resources, funding, quality of care and treatment provision probably SHOULD be interested in this issue overall.
On an individual basis, it is sod all to do with me how people choose to feed their babies and I support those around me who choose either and recieve the same in return from most of them. I support personal choice 100%.
On a wider level the issues of informed choice and health promotion and it's challenges are the business of all current and training health professionals, but also of interest to all who have any interest in the health service, and as everyone in the UK will be an NHS user at some point in their life it is likely to be of interest to many imho.

That may be true but I didnt stop bfeeding cos an ad told me too which seems to be the point of this thread.

Neither did I. I don't think this IS the point of the debate, but if that's not clear from the entirety of the discussion I don't know how to change that impression.

You cannot take away freedom of choice cos then we would live in a nanny state

I can't see anywhere that I, or anyone else has suggested removing choice from individuals. In fact I know I have stated repeatedly that I am 100% for personal choice.

My Mw was very good when I decided to ff, told me how to make up bottles and what not

Good. That is how it should be, good advice on safe feeding by a health professional.

cos the advice SMA give you about making up bottles is wrong

[/quote]

Well, that reaffirms a point that has been made regarding the difference between formula promotion and the promtion of safe formula feeding several times in this thread, imo.

 

[bubbles123]

Could the gastroenteritis bill also be reduced by providing proper information about how to make up feeds safely? Gastroenteritis/bacterial infections from non sterile milk powders rates can be drastically reduced by making up formula one at a time with water over 70 degrees. Because of the lack of proper information about how to safely make up feeds many people don't know this, continue to make up feeds with cooled water and then sometimes go onto store them and this massively increases the risk of infections from formula - by about 100,000 times I believe. Proper information about formula would greatly reduce the costs to the NHS.

I'm sure they could on a smaller but still very significant way. I think this is outlined in a previous post of mine in which UNICEF stated that only 13% of feeds (at the time of publication) were made up properly. Since that publication new guidelines have been brought in by the NHS regarding the preparation of formula which appear to be getting out there as there have been numerous posts on this board discussing whether following the new guidelines is necessary ( a whole other debate I think ), especially from mothers for whom the new guidelines are a change from the ones given with previous children.

The 50 million estimation is based, however on the evidence that breastmilk provides a unique environment in the gut which cannot be recreated even with meticulously prepared formula which would still leave the gut suspectible to gastro intestinal infection.

The ideal, I think would be a combination of increased breastfeeding rates and clearly accessible information on safe formula use.

I agree with you last point I do think that the message of the importance of following the new guidelines for formula preparation is not getting out as quickly as it should. I think people have got the idea that you should not store feeds not that you should make them with hot water. I see people at my groups adding powder to cold water all the time. I'm never sure whether I should say something or not. I don't because I don't want to upset anyone but I probably should.

 

[IvyBaby]

It is not just money that is needed to increase the BF rates in the society, it is education too and wrong info from formula companies can contribute to bad education about baby feeding matters. The general attitude in this country is that formula is as good as breast milk and FF is easier, hence the poor BF rates. And how many people look down at BF mothers as if they are doing something disgusting or wrong! No wonder many choose to FF.

 

[Blah11]

They're there to make money. Thinking they do it 'to help mothers' is VERY wishful thinking, lol.

 

[Rach27]

Haa haa - classic! Was at the bottom of this thread!

 

[trumpetbum]

In Scandinavia (Denmark, Sweden and Finland) follow-on milk promotion is not allowed We would need to adopt a Swedish level of support (constant, free access to lactation consultants and much, much more support besides) to even begin to restrict formula sales. But this would cost money, which people don't like to spend. But unfortunately the UK always tries to take the easy (cheap) way out. It's like people drink too much - lets tax the alcohol companies! Yes, that'll stop them without giving any thought to why people drink. People don't BF! Lets get the formula companies! That'll help. Sigh.

In Scandinavia (Denmark, Sweden and Finland) follow-on milk promotion is not permitted in a combination of legislative and voluntary measures, as is my understanding.
I wouldn't argue that sales should be restricted but if we are looking at these countries as examples of what works, then restricting promotion does seem to help. The word cheap has come up several time, but money has to be found somewhere to implement this level of support. Perhaps Sweden and countries like her enjoy the extra resources which can be saved in healthcare where breastfeeding numbers are increased.

Scandinavia have some of the highest rates of tax in the world - that's why they have such high standards of general healthcare. They also pay additional fees to see doctors and be admitted to hospital so their state health care has much more money than ours, meaning they can afford to pay for extra breast feeding support. I do agree however that there may be a place for restricted advertising but another way to look at it is that follow on milk, pregnancy clubs etc etc are a product of the advertising ban. In America where you can advertise there is no such thing as follow on milk as far as I know. Maybe the answer is to allow heavily restricted first milk advertising, then you allow formula companies to have brand recognition so they don't need to develop new milks or look for underhand ways to get their brands known. Just an idea

I agree that there are lots of ways in which Sweden and other countries supplement their healthcare system. I think we'd be niave to believe that optimum breastfeeding rates would be the answer to all our problems. The argument which is currently being made by UNICEF etc is that these things are a product of a ban which only covers the first 6 months and so has allowed these loopholes such as the rebranding, the clubs, the creation of follow up milk etc and so the ban hasn't gone far enough.
I don't know that I would personally use the USA as an example of where to go on this as breastfeeding rates are significantly lower.

 

[Blah11]

Also, I agree with the banning of formula advertising. Formula is a 2nd best to breastmilk is it not? So I think pregnant women should betaught all about breastfeeding and if/when they cant BF, THEN info should be given about making up bottles and all that.

 

[bubbles123]

Ok, Rach 27, I am genuinely curious as to what you would like formula companies to do. What would you like to happen? No advertising at all, no baby clubs etc? No formula on shelves in the supermarket? I'm not being horrid, I'm just being curious. How would you like the situation to be resolved?

 

[Blah11]

Sorry, another thing.. The support IS there if you need it. People need to be more proactive and if they need help they need to ask. People expect everything to be handed to them on a plate and for the HCPs to be psychic or something?

 

[IvyBaby]

Ok, Rach 27, I am genuinely curious as to what you would like formula companies to do. What would you like to happen? No advertising at all, no baby clubs etc? No formula on shelves in the supermarket? I'm not being horrid, I'm just being curious. How would you like the situation to be resolved?

Did she not repeat several times already that she is not against formula and advertising? Did you read her posts at all?

 

[bubbles123]

Not everyone is as strong or confident as you Blah - I wish I was! Many people are in no position to go out or fight for support just after they've had a baby. Support needs to come to you, that's why HV, midwives etc some to you after the birth and you're not expected to get up and go to a clinic.

 

[Missy86]

To be honest, I don't understand why everyones so bothered about formula milk. If you want to breastfeed. Great. If you want to formula feed, great! Why are we all so concerned about breast being best. It's nothing to do with you how other people feed their baby.

Be it formula milk or breastmilk. We're all aware of the benefits of breastmilk. Well done the NHS. We can all make our own decisions. Why is everyone so concerned with the fact that breastfeeding figures are falling etc?! Just curious?!

I can only answer for myself, but the issue of interest to me because public health is of interest to me. Poor breastfeeding figures relates to poorer health in general which relates to allocation of funding and resources. Again, of personal interest to me.
If all babies were breastfed for the first 3 months (and I'm not implying that ALL babies can be breastfed or implying anything negative about anyone who chose not to) it is estimated that the NHS would save over 50 million a year on gastroenteritis treatment alone. So anyone in the UK with any opinion on NHS resources, funding, quality of care and treatment provision probably SHOULD be interested in this issue overall.
On an individual basis, it is sod all to do with me how people choose to feed their babies and I support those around me who choose either and recieve the same in return from most of them. I support personal choice 100%.
On a wider level the issues of informed choice and health promotion and it's challenges are the business of all current and training health professionals, but also of interest to all who have any interest in the health service, and as everyone in the UK will be an NHS user at some point in their life it is likely to be of interest to many imho.

That may be true but I didnt stop bfeeding cos an ad told me too which seems to be the point of this thread.

Neither did I. I don't think this IS the point of the debate, but if that's not clear from the entirety of the discussion I don't know how to change that impression.

You cannot take away freedom of choice cos then we would live in a nanny state

I can't see anywhere that I, or anyone else has suggested removing choice from individuals. In fact I know I have stated repeatedly that I am 100% for personal choice.

My Mw was very good when I decided to ff, told me how to make up bottles and what not

Good. That is how it should be, good advice on safe feeding by a health professional.

cos the advice SMA give you about making up bottles is wrong

Well, that reaffirms a point that has been made regarding the difference between formula promotion and the promtion of safe formula feeding several times in this thread, imo.[/QUOTE]

That was my point if a mother decides to ff she should not be scared of going to her mw and the mw should be giving her practical advice about making up bottles

 

[trumpetbum]

Could the gastroenteritis bill also be reduced by providing proper information about how to make up feeds safely? Gastroenteritis/bacterial infections from non sterile milk powders rates can be drastically reduced by making up formula one at a time with water over 70 degrees. Because of the lack of proper information about how to safely make up feeds many people don't know this, continue to make up feeds with cooled water and then sometimes go onto store them and this massively increases the risk of infections from formula - by about 100,000 times I believe. Proper information about formula would greatly reduce the costs to the NHS.

I'm sure they could on a smaller but still very significant way. I think this is outlined in a previous post of mine in which UNICEF stated that only 13% of feeds (at the time of publication) were made up properly. Since that publication new guidelines have been brought in by the NHS regarding the preparation of formula which appear to be getting out there as there have been numerous posts on this board discussing whether following the new guidelines is necessary ( a whole other debate I think ), especially from mothers for whom the new guidelines are a change from the ones given with previous children.

The 50 million estimation is based, however on the evidence that breastmilk provides a unique environment in the gut which cannot be recreated even with meticulously prepared formula which would still leave the gut suspectible to gastro intestinal infection.

The ideal, I think would be a combination of increased breastfeeding rates and clearly accessible information on safe formula use.

I agree with you last point I do think that the message of the importance of following the new guidelines for formula preparation is not getting out as quickly as it should. I think people have got the idea that you should not store feeds not that you should make them with hot water. I see people at my groups adding powder to cold water all the time. I'm never sure whether I should say something or not. I don't because I don't want to upset anyone but I probably should.

It is difficult to tell other than from those around me who have had new babies and from this type of forum how much of the information is getting out via the NHS. I know I recently worked with a HV who gave me the new leaflets as she said ' it's all changed now with babies.' (It's 8 years since my last). I thought the leaflet was going to tell me that babies were born now with extra bits or something
On one hand, because of the sharing of information on this forum it can appear that everyone has the information as it appears. Otoh IRL it probably varies from area to are and on the quality of the service provided and on how much parents interact with the health service.
I know in my own group of friends/family people tend to fall into two camps, the small group who follow advice and guidelines to the letter and the second larger group who rubbish the advice as OTT, ever changing, and then go with what they did with the last child/what their mum did. but that's just my own personal experience. Telling someone that they're doing it 'wrong' might get you an earful, so I know what you mean
I also know that there are posters in this forum and this thread who go with what worked for them before, far be it for me to say that they shouldn't but it does show that the guidelines sometimes get across but aren't necessarily followed.