What If There Was No Formula?

[Tasha]

It's maybe not intentionally meant to, but it does. Many times FF ladies are bashed by what appears to be the majority-BF ladies. This is not just the case on BnB. It is also the case IRL for lots of people.

Debates are definitely interesting and fun. But BF v FF is very emotional for people. Not usually for people who FF by choice but for people who could not BF and still carry lots of shame and guilt, some of the things being said here can cut very deeply. This is true for Baby Club and other areas of the forum as well. If someone said (and this is purely hypothetical) that a woman was strange for BF her 5 year old, what would the reaction be? That person would probably be hounded out of here. So it's perfectly good for opinions to be expressed freely but they can and often are hurtful

And also reading FF v Bf debates sometimes makes me feel badly about myself since I was FF for my first year and I'm not stupid or fat or whatever but I feel like there's an assumption that I would be purely because I was a FF baby. that is not right either

See I think it is about your (not your as in you but yours as in who ever reads this) situation, cos I didnt see her originally start this as a BF v FF debate but rather a debate about what life would be like. The very first post certainly seems that way to me.

I chose to FF my first two, wanted to BF my third but she died, BF my furth for six weeks but then it didnt work for us and yes it hurt but I was/am proud of what I did manage, wanted to BF my fifth but again she died, and am hoping to BF any future babies if I am lucky enough.

I was also FF but I truly do not view BF v FF debates as assumptions about me. So I think it is an individual thing.

 

[vintage67]

The internet, more times than not, is no place for someone who had to use formula or have a c-section. While it depends on where you live how you may be treated in real life for such "failings" as a woman, seeing all this on the internet can make a person very paranoid and afraid to leave the house. Since the internet is so often a bully's outlet for all they don't have the nerve to say in public, spending time online can make you eye with suspicion those around you and wonder when they are going to suddenly gang up and circle you chanting "bad mother."

Where I live, I am adjacent to a lovely neighborhood (where I used to live and can no longer afford), which had a beautiful fall festival yesterday. I did not take my baby because I would have been using a stroller. I saw online where the the Babywearing group that meets in that area planned to be out in "full force" giving their cards to women that had thier "poor babies" strapped in "torture devices." So, we stayed home with our stroller, bottle and c-section scar. There are very sound medical reasons that led me to all of those things but none of that would have mattered. And believe me, it was as much for their protection as mine that I stayed home and avoided a "card."

A facebook friend had her baby last night via c-section and she already been having nasty comments. She has MRSA from a dog bite and has decided to use formula for birth. I have already warned her for what backlash she is going to get and offered to be there for support though deciding to formula feed due to the MRSA is a sound medical decision that she and her family and doctor carefully made.

 

[Foogirl]

Though it also made me laugh I can't help but think this person has failed or struggled to bf and this casual downplaying of bf is some form of coping mechanism. The WHO strongly recommends exclusive bf for the first 6 months and then up to 2 years. If formula had as you say "same nutritional benefits", then why does the WHO fail to mention it along bf? The ingredients found in breastmilk are over 3 times that of formula with some yet undiscovered.

Nope. Totallly wrong. I breastfed my daughter for 18 months. That included a start in NNICU where I not only struggled to establish a good supply because I expressed milk for the first 4 weeks to tube feed it to my daughter, but then struggled very hard to have her learn to feed once she reached 34 weeks gestation. I then had a very hard time keeping her weight up and through all that resolutely refused to have her given formula. Even when it turned out she was dairy intolerant, I totally changed my diet so I could keep feeding.

I am very pro breastfeeding, and will breastfeed again and encourage any new mum to give it a go and not give up too easily. But on the other hand, I put far too much pressure on myself in those early days and nearly slid into a depression when it looked like I wasn't going to be able to do it. For me there was more to it than simply having to use formula (which I didn't want my child to have) but a large part of it was my belief that breastmilk was going to be the difference between her having a good start or a bad one, when the reality was, as long as she was fed, it made very little difference. I think there are some great benefits to breastfeeding, beyond the value of the milk, but again, not to the point where a mother should be made to feel somehow inferior for choosing not to do it, and it bothers me that many FFing mothers have to explain themselves. This happened to me time and time again, FF mums would see me feeding and launch into a long explanation of why they didn't do it - totally unsolicited - and always with an "it wasn't my fault" defence behind it. I couldn't care less why others didn't do it.

I hold very little store in the WHO recommendations because they are not based on the simple case of breastmilk v formula in terms of nutrition. They have to be balanced to allow for cultural and poverty issues across the globe and as I said, when someone shows me the proper scientific research that shows breastmilk is "3 times that of formula" then I'll consider it, but that balanced research does not exist. We do not have a nation of undernourished formula fed babies, which shows that formula is an adequate alternative and is providing enough nutrition for babies. Sure, lets say for the sake of argument BM has 3 times more vitamin C. But formula has the amount necessary to maintain an healthy diet, so BM having more is irrelevant.

 

[Foogirl]

I cant add anything to the debate right now but the bolded bit made me laugh

I'd love to take the credit for it, but I can't. It was said to me by someone else and I pinched it. I love it too!

 

[summer rain]

It's maybe not intentionally meant to, but it does. Many times FF ladies are bashed by what appears to be the majority-BF ladies. This is not just the case on BnB. It is also the case IRL for lots of people.

Debates are definitely interesting and fun. But BF v FF is very emotional for people. Not usually for people who FF by choice but for people who could not BF and still carry lots of shame and guilt, some of the things being said here can cut very deeply. This is true for Baby Club and other areas of the forum as well. If someone said (and this is purely hypothetical) that a woman was strange for BF her 5 year old, what would the reaction be? That person would probably be hounded out of here. So it's perfectly good for opinions to be expressed freely but they can and often are hurtful

And also reading FF v Bf debates sometimes makes me feel badly about myself since I was FF for my first year and I'm not stupid or fat or whatever but I feel like there's an assumption that I would be purely because I was a FF baby. that is not right either

See I think it is about your (not your as in you but yours as in who ever reads this) situation, cos I didnt see her originally start this as a BF v FF debate but rather a debate about what life would be like. The very first post certainly seems that way to me.

I chose to FF my first two, wanted to BF my third but she died, BF my furth for six weeks but then it didnt work for us and yes it hurt but I was/am proud of what I did manage, wanted to BF my fifth but again she died, and am hoping to BF any future babies if I am lucky enough.

I was also FF but I truly do not view BF v FF debates as assumptions about me. So I think it is an individual thing.

I agree. Firstly this is an old thread from June or July which had slipped way down the list in news and debates, secondly I believe TheNewMrs intended no malice by asking what was quite an open ended question with no right or wrong answers. I believe as someone who switched to formula initially and then decided to relactate and worked incredibly hard for this and always successful she has seen things from both sides and has just as much right as anyone else to ask questions about a hypothetical situation. I don't see any judgement or malice in the original post at all, nor do I in any of the replies. A lot of the women who have presented alternatives that could be used instead of formula are not wishing formula gone because they currently use formula or have done so recently and have no issue with it. Being pro-BF doesn't make one anti-formula either I know I have had people claim that I have called formula poison (and not any old poison but rat poison) several times on this forum and I at no point said that and I resent that suggestion. I do believe the giant multi national corporation formula companies behave unethically and if they somehow could be removed from the equation it would be better for formula feeding mothers as well, that doesn't make me anti-formula just anti mega corporations (regardless what they make) xx

 

[summer rain]

Though it also made me laugh I can't help but think this person has failed or struggled to bf and this casual downplaying of bf is some form of coping mechanism. The WHO strongly recommends exclusive bf for the first 6 months and then up to 2 years. If formula had as you say "same nutritional benefits", then why does the WHO fail to mention it along bf? The ingredients found in breastmilk are over 3 times that of formula with some yet undiscovered.

Nope. Totallly wrong. I breastfed my daughter for 18 months. That included a start in NNICU where I not only struggled to establish a good supply because I expressed milk for the first 4 weeks to tube feed it to my daughter, but then struggled very hard to have her learn to feed once she reached 34 weeks gestation. I then had a very hard time keeping her weight up and through all that resolutely refused to have her given formula. Even when it turned out she was dairy intolerant, I totally changed my diet so I could keep feeding.

I am very pro breastfeeding, and will breastfeed again and encourage any new mum to give it a go and not give up too easily. But on the other hand, I put far too much pressure on myself in those early days and nearly slid into a depression when it looked like I wasn't going to be able to do it. For me there was more to it than simply having to use formula (which I didn't want my child to have) but a large part of it was my belief that breastmilk was going to be the difference between her having a good start or a bad one, when the reality was, as long as she was fed, it made very little difference. I think there are some great benefits to breastfeeding, beyond the value of the milk, but again, not to the point where a mother should be made to feel somehow inferior for choosing not to do it, and it bothers me that many FFing mothers have to explain themselves. This happened to me time and time again, FF mums would see me feeding and launch into a long explanation of why they didn't do it - totally unsolicited - and always with an "it wasn't my fault" defence behind it. I couldn't care less why others didn't do it.

I hold very little store in the WHO recommendations because they are not based on the simple case of breastmilk v formula in terms of nutrition. They have to be balanced to allow for cultural and poverty issues across the globe and as I said, when someone shows me the proper scientific research that shows breastmilk is "3 times that of formula" then I'll consider it, but that balanced research does not exist. We do not have a nation of undernourished formula fed babies, which shows that formula is an adequate alternative and is providing enough nutrition for babies. Sure, lets say for the sake of argument BM has 3 times more vitamin C. But formula has the amount necessary to maintain an healthy diet, so BM having more is irrelevant.

Lina meant that breastmilk has 3x as many unique ingredients as formula not that it has 3x as much of each ingredient. What she has said is true and has been proven by analysis of breastmilk. Some of the qualities of these ingredients hasn't yet been fully researched but who knows they could be highly beneficial? Until recently some of the indigestible sugars in breastmilk were thought to have no use but they were found via recent research to have prebiotic and immune qualities. If breastmilk was nutritionally nothing special then the formula companies wouldn't be clambering all over themselves trying to emulate ingredients and the fat blend in breastmilk as well as even claiming to have isolated a probiotic from breastmilk in the case of Hipp. That's not to say formula isn't nutritionally adequate because it is xx

 

[Dragonfly]

Length of this thread I am sure its been mentioned wet nurses, not only for the rich many woman would have wet nursed if they could. No one would let a baby die if they could wet nurse it. I do believe they did use other milks then to I have seen several very old baby feeding devices from 1800s , or a woman could donate milk. I think we would be a healthier society to.

 

[JASMAK]

But on the other hand, since I had an EMCS (truly an emergency, BTW) I guess we shouldn't be here anyway.

Huh?! What does this have to do with formula??? Or breastfeeding?

this was another tangent some of the posts went off to.......since we couldn't birth vaginally and also ended up not BF we would gave been victims of natural selection

BTW I would never have been able to afford donor milk. And my mom or sister would never "relactate". Also I would not be comfortable using a random person's milk.

Formula is not the devil. For those wishing there was no formula, you'd be wishing a lot of babies dead. One day you could need formula. It could happen to anyone.

I guess I just didnt see the corelation of sections because I had three, 2 emergency, both lifethreatening, and breastfed. Not ALL mom who have section use formula. I think people take what they want from breastmilk studies. The most important to me, were reduces obesity (hubby is a bit overweight - see avatar), reduces allergies, supposedly (I have a life threatening one to shellfish, and so does my son, to kiwi fruit), FREE (nuff said), and I gained alot during pregnancy and wanted it to help me lose the weight (helped some). If I couldn't have, I would have used formula....with no regrets. But, I really hate how there is this back-up with formula feeders against breastfeeders, that we are all judgemental and think you are poor parents. I think the support for breastfeeders is poor, not the parents, or the food!

 

[Dragonfly]

We made a match there for HM4HM NI on facebook there, I am admin. It didnt cost them anything. And I had a c section and breastfed. Just saying.

 

[Tasha]

The only child I BF I had an emergency section with. Other four were vaginal births.

Daragonfly, I dont understand this part of your post can you explain it, sorry if I am being thick; We made a match there for HM4HM NI on facebook there, I am admin. It didnt cost them anything

 

[Dragonfly]

The only child I BF I had an emergency section with. Other four were vaginal births.

Daragonfly, I dont understand this part of your post can you explain it, sorry if I am being thick; We made a match there for HM4HM NI on facebook there, I am admin. It didnt cost them anything

Milk sharing.
https://www.hm4hb.net/
theres one in probably every country, 2 in Ireland on facebook. We made a match as one mum was looking milk and several donated it to her. We spread the message a mum is looking for milk or has a donation.

 

[Ozzieshunni]

Human Milk 4 Human Babies. It's a free Facebook group for women in need of breastmilk.

 

[Tasha]

Thank you for explaining, my friend just started donating to someone because of fb. I really hope that if I am lucky enough to have another baby to bring home, that I can donate to people, as I was able to express a lot right away the MW was even shocked.

 

[Foogirl]

Lina meant that breastmilk has 3x as many unique ingredients as formula not that it has 3x as much of each ingredient. What she has said is true and has been proven by analysis of breastmilk. Some of the qualities of these ingredients hasn't yet been fully researched but who knows they could be highly beneficial? Until recently some of the indigestible sugars in breastmilk were thought to have no use but they were found via recent research to have prebiotic and immune qualities. If breastmilk was nutritionally nothing special then the formula companies wouldn't be clambering all over themselves trying to emulate ingredients and the fat blend in breastmilk as well as even claiming to have isolated a probiotic from breastmilk in the case of Hipp. That's not to say formula isn't nutritionally adequate because it is xx

My point being, when they discover BM *might* have something good in it, the formula companies "clamber over themselves" to include it. That's a good thing. But again, there's that word "proven" and in fact nothing it "proven" - at least not to a level I would consider it to be "fact" just a whole bunch of theories. And those "3X" things that are apparently so fantastic we have no idea what they are, might actually be worthless. Certainly, there aren't thousands and thousands of FF babies or children who are suffering because they aren't being given these magical, secret ingredients, so secret they have no discernible use.

My biggest problem with the stuff bandied about with BM is, on the one hand we are told it is all fantastic and contains this many bits and that many pieces so it must be fabulous, but on the other hand we are told it is totally unique and is perfectly tailored to your baby and not only that varies depending on the temperature, the time of day and even the exact age of a baby. So it is impossible to state that all breastmilk contains x number of nutrients. And even with it being so fantastically magical as it is, hospitals across the country are still insisting babies who are discharged from NNICU or SCBU with BFing mums are sent home with multivitamins and iron to give to their LOs - something not necessary with formula because these are already fortified. When I challenged this and was insistent I'd be eating a balanced diet so anything she needs she's get from me, I was told it wasn't enough and policy was policy. You'd have thought if BM was proven to be so fabulous always, then this policy would not be in place.

Your last line is exactly where I was coming from though, formula is nutritionally adequate, and whatever else babies get from breastmilk is not something so important it cannot be excluded from a baby's diet. If it were, we'd find huge variants in the health and well being, both in the short and the long term of FF babies and that just isn't happening.

 

[KittyVentura]

Seriously?
How would women cope? What would doctors suggest? How would you deal with low supply??

Interesting thought.

Ultimately most women who believe they couldn't breastfeed, would realise they could and we would all just get on with it. We wouldn't know differently and so society would never have adjusted to the lives we have now where babies are expected to sleep a set way and women are supposed to be keeping a social life, clean house, go back to work etc. Expectations and demands on new mothers would be less, permitting mothers to focus on establishing breastfeeding without any other pressures. Breastfeeding wouldn't be seen as "hard" I initially as there would be no formula having been around appearing to be the "easy" option.

For those that truly, genuinely couldn't breastfeed, if they couldn't find a wet nurse or someone to donate milk... Sadly their babies would starve and eventually die.

I think some people face challenges and hurdles and that combined with a lack of education (on the part of those giving bad, but well meant advice) leads MANY women to wrongly believe they cannot produce milk or are not producing enough. At my local baby group there were 3 (of 12) who said they weren't producing enough milk and baby wasn't satisfied because baby didn't sleep and seemed to want boob non stop in the first week... Now most here will know actually cluster feeding is extremely common and helps build a good supply... But those women truly believed they couldn't produce enough. So I'm confident most of the women who think they cannot produce actually could with the right support and advice.

I think if there was no formula, in this day and age donor milk would be vast and readily available. I'd imagine you might even be able to buy it. After all, with all the advances in science and medicine, Drs wouldn't let babies die (in developed countries) of starvation due to failure to produce breastmilk. And honestly, I think that would be so much better than formula.

That said, formula IS available and I am glad. I know I would have breastfeed both for longer if formula wasn't available, but when I became very sick in the early days with Fin... And when Mops arrived and I already had a young child, I'm glad I had the option to switch over and use formula for them. I'm confident that I made the right choices for my family as a whole at the times. Xx

 

[joshiesmum]

Its not just formula though theres loads of what ifs... eg in poverty sticken countries there is no formula, c sections, vaccines etc and babies unfortunatly die :'-( we should be so grateful for what we have in our countries xxx

 

[KiwiMOM]

the long and short of it is: if there was no formula, more people would breastfeed. People who choose not too from day one now would either breast feed or not have children in that world. More mothers breastfeeding would lead to more people able to support mothers in early days when they run into challenges. Guess what? *formula is made of cows milk* yep. It has been pumped full of iron so that it doesn't cause the iron deficiency everyone is so dead set against giving dairy before 1 year about but is predominantly cows milk. If there weren't the "big bad" formula companies out there to offer their product there could still be breast milk alternatives and I'm going to use buzz words here: artificial feeding.

This is a recipe I pulled out of "The Care of Young Babies" (1946)
A suitable formula for a 6-7lb baby would be:
Half cream dried milk 2-2 1/2 measures
Dextrimaltose in sugar 1/2 teaspoon
Boiled water 3-3 1/2 oz.

And children survived on this!

 

[KiwiMOM]

the long and short of it is: if there was no formula, more people would breastfeed. People who choose not too from day one now would either breast feed or not have children in that world. More mothers breastfeeding would lead to more people able to support mothers in early days when they run into challenges. Guess what? *formula is made of cows milk* yep. It has been pumped full of iron so that it doesn't cause the iron deficiency everyone is so dead set against giving dairy before 1 year about but is predominantly cows milk. If there weren't the "big bad" formula companies out there to offer their product there could still be breast milk alternatives and I'm going to use buzz words here: artificial feeding.

This is a recipe I pulled out of "The Care of Young Babies" (1946)
A suitable formula for a 6-7lb baby would be:
Half cream dried milk 2-2 1/2 measures
Dextrimaltose in sugar 1/2 teaspoon
Boiled water 3-3 1/2 oz.

And children survived on this!

Sorry, my point there were still alternatives for people who couldn't breastfeed other than donor milk or wet nursing. The book goes on to say that this recipe should only be used if the baby has lost a severe and persistent amount of weight the book then goes on to say that you should get your baby into a routine of having their last feed at 10pm and not feed the baby until the baby "wakes at 6:30-7:30" freeing the evening for dancing or a trip to the cinema" its actually a hilarious read!

 

[alaskagrown]

Human Milk 4 Human Babies. It's a free Facebook group for women in need of breastmilk.

Great site! That's where I found a baby to sponsor

 

[summer rain]

the long and short of it is: if there was no formula, more people would breastfeed. People who choose not too from day one now would either breast feed or not have children in that world. More mothers breastfeeding would lead to more people able to support mothers in early days when they run into challenges. Guess what? *formula is made of cows milk* yep. It has been pumped full of iron so that it doesn't cause the iron deficiency everyone is so dead set against giving dairy before 1 year about but is predominantly cows milk. If there weren't the "big bad" formula companies out there to offer their product there could still be breast milk alternatives and I'm going to use buzz words here: artificial feeding.

This is a recipe I pulled out of "The Care of Young Babies" (1946)
A suitable formula for a 6-7lb baby would be:
Half cream dried milk 2-2 1/2 measures
Dextrimaltose in sugar 1/2 teaspoon
Boiled water 3-3 1/2 oz.

And children survived on this!

Sorry, my point there were still alternatives for people who couldn't breastfeed other than donor milk or wet nursing. The book goes on to say that this recipe should only be used if the baby has lost a severe and persistent amount of weight the book then goes on to say that you should get your baby into a routine of having their last feed at 10pm and not feed the baby until the baby "wakes at 6:30-7:30" freeing the evening for dancing or a trip to the cinema" its actually a hilarious read!

Until the late 1970s in the UK although other modified formulas were available by then, the most widely used formulas in the UK were actually just powdered cows milk with vitamin D added and nothing else-this included cow and gate and the UK government made and sold their own version. While these unmodified formulas did have serious problems in some regards many children did grow well on them and were perfectly fine. If your parent was FF in the UK before around 1980 it's likely they were raised on one of these formulas. In some rural areas of Canada home made formulas based on evaporated milk are still common they did a lot of developmental tests on babies raised on these homemade formulas and 'superior' commercial formulas. It was found that aside from some minor aspects of visual development both sets of children developed normally and net milestones at around the same ages. Xx