Would you trust the h1n1 shot after this...

[lisaf]

I have not heard that those who are catching whooping cough in my area were already vaccinated. Haven't heard a PEEP to that effect... where do you get your data from? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is rarely stated when a vaccinated individual contracts the same illness they are vaccinated for. It is usually just blamed on the unvaccinated individuals.

Ok... so you have made an assumption with no data to back you up other than a suspicion that they don't bother to look into this?
THAT is where I have trouble with your logic an arguments. THAT is when you sound like one of the fringe scaremongers.... I'm not saying you ARE one, just that you sound like one when you make comments like those.

 

[blutea]

Do you really think it's a good idea to not vaccinate at all blutea? Do you think alcohol gel and washing our hands would keep them away or do you have another suggestion?

It's comments like this that show why you need to go back and read this thread.

Whatever!

 

[blutea]

I have not heard that those who are catching whooping cough in my area were already vaccinated. Haven't heard a PEEP to that effect... where do you get your data from? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is rarely stated when a vaccinated individual contracts the same illness they are vaccinated for. It is usually just blamed on the unvaccinated individuals.

Ok... so you have made an assumption with no data to back you up other than a suspicion that they don't bother to look into this?
THAT is where I have trouble with your logic an arguments. THAT is when you sound like one of the fringe scaremongers.... I'm not saying you ARE one, just that you sound like one when you make comments like those.

This exact thing happen in February regarding the whooping cough issue before they realized the bateria had mutated.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

Do you really think it's a good idea to not vaccinate at all blutea? Do you think alcohol gel and washing our hands would keep them away or do you have another suggestion?

It's comments like this that show why you need to go back and read this thread.

Whatever!

why have you all of a sudden became extremely rude in your posts?

 

[blutea]

I have not heard that those who are catching whooping cough in my area were already vaccinated. Haven't heard a PEEP to that effect... where do you get your data from? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is rarely stated when a vaccinated individual contracts the same illness they are vaccinated for. It is usually just blamed on the unvaccinated individuals.

Ok... so you have made an assumption with no data to back you up other than a suspicion that they don't bother to look into this?
THAT is where I have trouble with your logic an arguments. THAT is when you sound like one of the fringe scaremongers.... I'm not saying you ARE one, just that you sound like one when you make comments like those.

This exact thing happen in February regarding the whooping cough issue before they realized the bateria had mutated.

Here's just one article to get you started-

Whooping Cough Bacteria Has Mutated, Vaccines No Longer Effective
Posted by Amber Robinson at 11:11 AM on February 11, 2010

Dramatic increases in the incidence of whooping cough in Australia had been put down to an increase in non-vaxers. But new research indicates that it might not be non vaccinating parents who caused the spike, but the vaccination itself.

Significant changes in the two most common strains of the bordetella pertussis bacteria (which causes whooping cough) have been detected, and researchers have named a change in the type of vaccination as a cause for the bacteria mutation.

Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough (also known as pertussis) up to 1997, but this then phased out and replaced with a more targeted version which was thought to have fewer side effects.

While the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis, the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

Researchers think that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to the genetic changes in the bacteria.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

Here's just one article to get you started-

Whooping Cough Bacteria Has Mutated, Vaccines No Longer Effective
Posted by Amber Robinson at 11:11 AM on February 11, 2010

Dramatic increases in the incidence of whooping cough in Australia had been put down to an increase in non-vaxers. But new research indicates that it might not be non vaccinating parents who caused the spike, but the vaccination itself.

Significant changes in the two most common strains of the bordetella pertussis bacteria (which causes whooping cough) have been detected, and researchers have named a change in the type of vaccination as a cause for the bacteria mutation.

Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough (also known as pertussis) up to 1997, but this then phased out and replaced with a more targeted version which was thought to have fewer side effects.

While the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis, the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

Researchers think that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to the genetic changes in the bacteria.

this was taken from a magazine, not a credible source.

 

[blutea]

Here's just one article to get you started-

Whooping Cough Bacteria Has Mutated, Vaccines No Longer Effective
Posted by Amber Robinson at 11:11 AM on February 11, 2010

Dramatic increases in the incidence of whooping cough in Australia had been put down to an increase in non-vaxers. But new research indicates that it might not be non vaccinating parents who caused the spike, but the vaccination itself.

Significant changes in the two most common strains of the bordetella pertussis bacteria (which causes whooping cough) have been detected, and researchers have named a change in the type of vaccination as a cause for the bacteria mutation.

Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough (also known as pertussis) up to 1997, but this then phased out and replaced with a more targeted version which was thought to have fewer side effects.

While the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis, the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

Researchers think that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to the genetic changes in the bacteria.

this was taken from a magazine, not a credible source.

Like I said, it was just one article to get you started. Keep researching it.

 

[Blah11]

'non-vaxers' says it all..

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

Here's just one article to get you started-

Whooping Cough Bacteria Has Mutated, Vaccines No Longer Effective
Posted by Amber Robinson at 11:11 AM on February 11, 2010

Dramatic increases in the incidence of whooping cough in Australia had been put down to an increase in non-vaxers. But new research indicates that it might not be non vaccinating parents who caused the spike, but the vaccination itself.

Significant changes in the two most common strains of the bordetella pertussis bacteria (which causes whooping cough) have been detected, and researchers have named a change in the type of vaccination as a cause for the bacteria mutation.

Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough (also known as pertussis) up to 1997, but this then phased out and replaced with a more targeted version which was thought to have fewer side effects.

While the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis, the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

Researchers think that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to the genetic changes in the bacteria.

this was taken from a magazine, not a credible source.

Like I said, it was just one article to get you started. Keep researching it.

this is referring to a change in the type of vaccine used to a less effective one, implying how greatly effective the original was. it also notes how fatal whooping cough is to babies.

probably not the best article to illustrate your point.

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20697671

just one example of the great success of the vaccination programme in singapore.

 

[lisaf]

Here's just one article to get you started-

Whooping Cough Bacteria Has Mutated, Vaccines No Longer Effective
Posted by Amber Robinson at 11:11 AM on February 11, 2010

Dramatic increases in the incidence of whooping cough in Australia had been put down to an increase in non-vaxers. But new research indicates that it might not be non vaccinating parents who caused the spike, but the vaccination itself.

Significant changes in the two most common strains of the bordetella pertussis bacteria (which causes whooping cough) have been detected, and researchers have named a change in the type of vaccination as a cause for the bacteria mutation.

Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough (also known as pertussis) up to 1997, but this then phased out and replaced with a more targeted version which was thought to have fewer side effects.

While the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis, the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

Researchers think that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to the genetic changes in the bacteria.

this was taken from a magazine, not a credible source.

Like I said, it was just one article to get you started. Keep researching it.

The article linked to a CDC document that says the following:
The reemergence of pertussis has been attributed to
various factors, including increased awareness, improved
diagnostics, decreased vaccination coverage, suboptimal
vaccines, waning vaccine-induced immunity, and pathogen
adaptation. The relative contribution of these factors may
differ between countries and is the subject of ongoing debate.

Here is the CDC article in full... it got too scientific for me to understand, lol
https://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/15/8/pdfs/1206.pdf

It did go on to study the variation in the strain of the disease and came to this conclusion:
The effect of pathogen adaptation on disease impact
may depend on factors such as vaccine coverage and the
quality of the vaccine used, which may differ between
countries. A relatively weak vaccine used in the Netherlands
may have exacerbated the effect of the emergence of
ptxP3 strains on disease impact

and:
Pertussis among recently
vaccinated children is rare, indicating that pathogen adaptation
does not play a role unless immunity has waned.

My conclusion upon reading this? Vaccinating young children is still extremely important as it will protect them from the disease at a point where they are most vulnerable. There was no indication from what I read that young children who had been vaccinated were catching this new strain.
Waning protection is because people do not receive their booster shots (I got my booster shot 3 years ago in combo with my Tetanus booster). So continuing to get booster shots even when the disease is no longer so dangerous to you as you reach adulthood may still carry benefits to the general population of helping to prevent the spread and creation of a pathogen adaptation.

 

[KandyKinz]

Pertussis among recently
vaccinated children is rare, indicating that pathogen adaptation
does not play a role unless immunity has waned.

I don't know if I completely believe that statement.... Quite honestly, I'm really not all that in tune with current data regarding pertussis in particularly.... But awhile back my son developed pertussis just one year after receiving all four of the pertussis vaccinations which were given at their recommended times.

 

[lisaf]

Pertussis among recently
vaccinated children is rare, indicating that pathogen adaptation
does not play a role unless immunity has waned.

I don't know if I completely believe that statement.... Quite honestly, I'm really not all that in tune with current data regarding pertussis in particularly.... But awhile back my son developed pertussis just one year after receiving all four of the pertussis vaccinations which were given at their recommended times.

Thanks for that bit... I was just quoting from the study I found.
It does say rare, not impossible... that darned scientific loophole of never being 100% sure.

 

[KandyKinz]

yeah the doctor did say that it was rather unusual.... but when it happens to you you don't foget it!

 

[KandyKinz]

and pertussis is very very scary!

As a parent I learned that long waits in emerge are actually very reassuring... Nothing sucks more then when you bypass triage! And when I brought my son in with pertussis barely breathing (just two hours before he was COMPLETELY fine) we bypassed triage.

 

[lisaf]

very true about the long wait analogy... Glad he was ok!
I remember once being in the ER waiting and they came out and told us it was going to be at least an hour or two before they saw anyone because they had an infant emergency come in and their entire available staff was working on the case!!! The hospital was not well-equipped for infant emergencies so they were scrambling to handle the case.

 

[aob1013]

I have not heard that those who are catching whooping cough in my area were already vaccinated. Haven't heard a PEEP to that effect... where do you get your data from? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is rarely stated when a vaccinated individual contracts the same illness they are vaccinated for. It is usually just blamed on the unvaccinated individuals.

My fiance had whooping cough as a newborn, before his immunisations.

 

[PeanutBean]

Hello! Sorry not to have been on, I've been super busy with work and super ill with the whole being pregnant thing and this thread always makes me feel cross and drained!

I see it's still going in circles though. Thanks for the kind words after my last post. Blutea what did you want me to clarify? That I was/wasn't being rude? I've no apology to make about my post other than posting on a phone makes review a bit difficult. Blutea as you challenged me specifically I don't see why you find it condescending when you've said you don't have a good understanding of the scientific process. The reality is that most people don't, hence my whole field of career existing. What surprises me then is with how much authority you've stated a variety of things and how dismissive and selective you are about the scientific evidence that's been put before you.

I'm going to say it one last time - I fully support you in your decision not to vaccinate given the experiences you have had. There is no attack coming from me with regards your decision. My argument is with the logic and resources you have been sharing with us and how they are being applied to the population at large which I believe to be incorrect and to go against the published scientific data on this subject. For someone saying you have no wish to tell people what to do you seem to be trying very hard to make people think all vaccination is a bad thing. I didn't say anything about what you can and can't post, besides flaming anything goes really. All I asked was that you stop abusing the science you imperfectly understand. It doesn't help your side of the debate and just provokes people to point out the flaws in the argument.

Anyway I'm really not wanting to engage in personal stuff on here. My statement about science was generally made and applies to anyone saying unfounded things or purposely misrepresenting the published research. It wasn't a personal attack. I appreciate you liked part of the post Blutea. Lol.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

Pb I'm on my phone too and it takes ages to type doesn't it
Xx

 

[PeanutBean]

The worst is the predictive text and minor typos become some utterly unrelated word! Just noticed a couple of things making no sense at the beginning!