Agnostic/Atheist parents - religious family members talking to LO about god?

[AnneD]

also flip this, would any Catholics, Christians or any other religion come to an atheist meeting and swear they didn't believe in God to get something to satisfy someone else? It it goes against someones believe why is it ok to ask an atheist to do this.

This, a thousand times. Why would atheists and agnostics have to let a religious person do something that is against their beliefs? Why? Why can't said religious person respect the atheist's point of view and leave them be and bring up their child as they see fit?

 

[AnneD]

but I'm not comfortable baptising Micah into a religion before he's old enough to make a choice himself. And I don't want him being told religious beliefs as fact before he's old enough to question things.

Anyone?

I think people who say OP should let her MIL have Micah christened have missed what OP said in her post.

OP, out of interest and if you haven't left the thread, how does MIL feel about you not being married then, if she's such a passionate Catholic?

 

[Rachel_C]

I don't think talking to children about beliefs will cause confusion as long as the parents are quite clear about it being belief rather than fact, whatever anybody else says. We always say, "I believe that... Daddy believes... some other people believe... what do you think?" but I have no problem with other people saying simply, "X is true" because the kids have a good foundation from us at home. They know that different people think different things and if somebody suddenly decides to call me a heathen and try to tell the girls they must cover their hair, they'll know that's belief rather than fact because we've always been clear that people have different ideas. If they were confused, I'm sure they'd ask us about it rather than staying confused because conversations like that are a normal thing for us and not scary.

If somebody was regularly stating their beliefs as truth to the kids, I would make sure to reinforce that they're beliefs regularly just to make sure LO understands e.g. ask LO what they talked about with grandma, if he/she brings up one of grandma's beliefs just say, "Oh yes, Grandma does believe that. It's a bit different to what I think, isn't it? What do you think?". Just make sure LO knows he/she is allowed to have a different view, no big fuss with anybody. You can talk about it as if it's a really interesting thing, which is it, but not scary.

 

[emyandpotato]

OK, so suppose it's not disrespectful or hypocritical to have your child baptised even though you are not religious and have no intention to bring said child up in the doctrine etc. (I disagree with the premise, but never mind right now.) You let MIL have your child christened, for her peace of mind and because it's important to her, but where does it stop? If MIL is a regular church goer and a believer and that's important to her, do you let her take your child to church and tell him about god as if it were a fact just because it's important to her and for her peace of mind? Is it then OK for her to tell the child that those who weren't christened will go to hell, and that going to church is the right thing to do and those who don't...?

Seriously now, if your MIL was going loopy because she thought your child would develop PCOS because you are putting her into disposable nappies, would you even consider switching to cloth? Or if it really meant so much for her peace of mind that your child start on baby rice at 3 months because she thought you were starving him and hindering his brain development? Where does it stop?

And just suppose it were really important for you to not have your child indoctrinated and to let him choose for himself if he wanted to be christened when he is old enough? Isn't it incredibly disrespectful for MIL to do something you are uncomfortable with?

Look, I'm not religious, I think a lot of the beliefs in organised religion are insane and offensive and wrong, but it doesn't stop millions of people believing in them. OP said her MIL was Catholic and worried about the baptism thing. She sounded like she cared a great deal about her MIL so me and some other people suggested that she went ahead with a baptism, perhaps without OP and her OH being involved if she was comfortable with that, to ease the mind of her MIL.

It isn't the same as the baby rice thing or the nappy thing because it doesn't effect the OP or her LO in the long run, and barely affects her in the short term. Her MIL on the other hand is going to be going crazy with the idea that should anything happen her beloved grandson isn't going to heaven. That's arguably the worst possible fear for a Catholic person.

Every single person on the thread is in agreement that taking her LO to church regularly to appease her MIL isn't right, nor is allowing her MIL to force beliefs on to her LO. No one is saying that. We were talking about the possibility, if OP wanted to (no one said she had to), of letting her MIL take her LO for an hour and get him baptised. And it would be very easy to be like 'okay MIL, stops here, baptism is the compromise now we're not bringing him up Catholic so drop it'. MIL doesn't worry about eternal damnation for the time being, and LO's fate is in his own hands when he's old enough to decide. As to your last point about it being disrespectful if OP was uncomfortable- sure it would, but OP didn't say she was so we were just talking about it as a suggestion. No one said OP had to.

As to it being offensive; it isn't. It's a fundamental Catholic belief that babies need washing of original sin. It's not like a standard Christening- which by the way billions of people do without ever bothering to practise Christianity and no one bothers about that, just like so many people get married in church. If Catholics are offended by it then they're hypcrites. And it's to appease the grandmother anyway, nothing to do with the parents, and the MIL is Catholic.

As for atheists not making religious believers do anything that goes against their beliefs; no, you're probably right. But that's because most atheists don't have beliefs that necessitate anything similar to baptism in order to save a child's soul, so it's hardly a fair comparison.

I get what you're saying about it being a slippery slope and if MIL believes now that Micah is gonna go to purgatory then she may well believe that when he's old enough to decide for himself to reject Catholicism (if he does) he'll be condemned to hell, but with the latter belief at least she has the comfort of the fact that it was within his control and not something that he suffers innocently.

 

[Dragonfly]

Here they would mind. Since you have to lie and all. And if you even want to marry in a church you have to go to masses, some do it just to get married and dont believe. All that dosnt sit with me. I dont want my kids christened and I wouldn't satisfy my mum by doing it because it would be something else after that. I got the whole "Satan will take your children and you will have no where to bury them" line too. She actually said that. She either respects how I bring my kids up and stops being narcissistic for just once. She choose to take nothing to do after. Which was for the best. It dosnt sit right with me to stand there saying all that stuff I dont believe in or even want my children to believe in. It wouldn't be ok for me to stand in any other religious places and lie either. I am not judging any one else for doing it, I know many that have done it as they think they need it to get in to schools here but thats changed now. Or they fall under the pressure of families. I dont actually know any Catholics that go to mass. Apart from my granddad the only one on my family. Its more reputation here, you dont do it people actually talk. And I am not for a moment ashamed to say I am atheist. But for some reason get shamed for it. I give respect to any one elses decisions but get none back for mine. So no I wont go against my non belief to please someone elses belief. Their problem is their problem, not mine or my childs.

also flip this, would any Catholics, Christians or any other religion come to an atheist meeting and swear they didn't believe in God to get something to satisfy someone else? It it goes against someones believe why is it ok to ask an atheist to do this.

Their problem is their problem ?? that's not really how we do things in my family
Someone's problem is everyone's problem

Not how my family work, all very detached and take nothing to do with each other. Never visit. never speak. Dont actually have a say either. Thats just how mine works not how i think every one elses should be.

also flip this, would any Catholics, Christians or any other religion come to an atheist meeting and swear they didn't believe in God to get something to satisfy someone else? It it goes against someones believe why is it ok to ask an atheist to do this.

This, a thousand times. Why would atheists and agnostics have to let a religious person do something that is against their beliefs? Why? Why can't said religious person respect the atheist's point of view and leave them be and bring up their child as they see fit?

One person agrees with me at least. All this respect for others beliefs and atheists just have to go along with it.

 

[emyandpotato]

One person agrees with me at least. All this respect for others beliefs and atheists just have to go along with it.

I think everyone would agree that respect for the beliefs of others should go both ways. But tolerance breeds tolerance and all anyone is talking about here is a debatably small compromise in order to ease the mind of a loved one.

 

[AnneD]

But look, OP clearly stated that she isn't comfortable having Micah baptised into a religion until he is old enough to make a choice for himself. Why should she do something she isn't comfortable with just so her MIL doesn't worry herself silly? This is insane to me.

 

[Natasha2605]

also flip this, would any Catholics, Christians or any other religion come to an atheist meeting and swear they didn't believe in God to get something to satisfy someone else? It it goes against someones believe why is it ok to ask an atheist to do this.

This, a thousand times. Why would atheists and agnostics have to let a religious person do something that is against their beliefs? Why? Why can't said religious person respect the atheist's point of view and leave them be and bring up their child as they see fit?

Absolutely agree with this! I find it shocking that some would baptise (or equivalent) for anything other than genuine religious reasons and beliefs.

 

[AnneD]

Dragonfly, I am with you 100%.

I think I will have to unfollow this thread soon.

 

[emyandpotato]

But look, OP clearly stated that she isn't comfortable having Micah baptised into a religion until he is old enough to make a choice for himself. Why should she do something she isn't comfortable with just so her MIL doesn't worry herself silly? This is insane to me.

I read that more as like initiating him in to a religion, like Christening him, as opposed to the act of cleansing his soul (and yes I know that sounds insane ). To me there is a difference because with the latter, it is more a necessity than a ceremonial thing. But if OP isn't comfortable with it then it shouldn't happen, I don't think anyone meant that it should go ahead against her will by any means.

 

[Rags]

One person agrees with me at least. All this respect for others beliefs and atheists just have to go along with it.

I think everyone would agree that respect for the beliefs of others should go both ways. But tolerance breeds tolerance and all anyone is talking about here is a debatably small compromise in order to ease the mind of a loved one.

I have to say Dragonfly that I agree with you. I am fortunate enough to have a family who all believe different things and who let each other get on with what they want. My sister would have liked my son to be baptised as she was keen to be his God mother, I told her she'd need to wait until he was an adult then and decided this for himself. No one else made any comment positively or negatively. I am however aware that many years ago my grandmother quietly baptised my cousin over the kitchen sink without my aunts knowledge as she was very devout and terrified that the baby would end up in purgatory.

You can't be excluded from a school in Scotland for religious reasons any more and no longer have to prove that you are christened/baptised for admission even if the school calls it's self Catholic/church based. As long as it is in your catchment area then you can attend and all overtly religious teaching is carried out outside of school hours. (There is still and element of Christian bias in all schools except alternative eg Steiner or other religious based schools)

 

[Dragonfly]

One person agrees with me at least. All this respect for others beliefs and atheists just have to go along with it.

I think everyone would agree that respect for the beliefs of others should go both ways. But tolerance breeds tolerance and all anyone is talking about here is a debatably small compromise in order to ease the mind of a loved one.

I have to say Dragonfly that I agree with you. I am fortunate enough to have a family who all believe different things and who let each other get on with what they want. My sister would have liked my son to be baptised as she was keen to be his God mother, I told her she'd need to wait until he was an adult then and decided this for himself. No one else made any comment positively or negatively. I am however aware that many years ago my grandmother quietly baptised my cousin over the kitchen sink without my aunts knowledge as she was very devout and terrified that the baby would end up in purgatory.

You can't be excluded from a school in Scotland for religious reasons any more and no longer have to prove that you are christened/baptised for admission even if the school calls it's self Catholic/church based. As long as it is in your catchment area then you can attend and all overtly religious teaching is carried out outside of school hours. (There is still and element of Christian bias in all schools except alternative eg Steiner or other religious based schools)

Sadly we have no alternative ones but religious. They do not exclude but my son is the only non catholic in his school, They have never had one here. Its very catholic. However its a good school and they are kind to him and have always been nice to me. I think its 16% did state religion on census form for my area. Rest where catholic/ protestant. So there will never be a school with no religion here. My son will be excluded from conformation and holy communion in p3. Not much actual work apart from religion is done then. Not sure what to do .

No one in my family seem to care about my partners beliefs. Many different religions in his family and his family are protestant. He was baptized at birth however as they thought he would die, he was 28 weeks. That got him in to a catholic school when he moved to this area only he had to make his sacraments in order to join the rest and he never wanted too. Thankfully they are not like this now.

sorry for side tracking thread.

 

[sam2eb]

One person agrees with me at least. All this respect for others beliefs and atheists just have to go along with it.

I think everyone would agree that respect for the beliefs of others should go both ways. But tolerance breeds tolerance and all anyone is talking about here is a debatably small compromise in order to ease the mind of a loved one.

I have to say Dragonfly that I agree with you. I am fortunate enough to have a family who all believe different things and who let each other get on with what they want. My sister would have liked my son to be baptised as she was keen to be his God mother, I told her she'd need to wait until he was an adult then and decided this for himself. No one else made any comment positively or negatively. I am however aware that many years ago my grandmother quietly baptised my cousin over the kitchen sink without my aunts knowledge as she was very devout and terrified that the baby would end up in purgatory.

You can't be excluded from a school in Scotland for religious reasons any more and no longer have to prove that you are christened/baptised for admission even if the school calls it's self Catholic/church based. As long as it is in your catchment area then you can attend and all overtly religious teaching is carried out outside of school hours. (There is still and element of Christian bias in all schools except alternative eg Steiner or other religious based schools)

Sadly we have no alternative ones but religious. They do not exclude but my son is the only non catholic in his school, They have never had one here. Its very catholic. However its a good school and they are kind to him and have always been nice to me. I think its 16% did state religion on census form for my area. Rest where catholic/ protestant. So there will never be a school with no religion here. My son will be excluded from conformation and holy communion in p3. Not much actual work apart from religion is done then. Not sure what to do .

No one in my family seem to care about my partners beliefs. Many different religions in his family and his family are protestant. He was baptized at birth however as they thought he would die, he was 28 weeks. That got him in to a catholic school when he moved to this area only he had to make his sacraments in order to join the rest and he never wanted too. Thankfully they are not like this now.

sorry for side tracking thread.

Sorry you are facing all this with ur son's school dragonfly. We are protestant and my son goes to a Catholic special needs school and they have been brilliant about giving him things to do when the other children are doing religion. Are there no other schools local? Usually in protestant schools you do get some Catholic children, probably more now days coz of immigrants.

I agree with dragonfly with regards to this thread. I would never let my son, who attends catholic school even though we are not catholic, I'd never let him take his sacraments etc. I would think that would be insulting to the people who believe in those things.

 

[AngelUK]

I don't get how it is insulting or disrespectful to the ppl who believe in it when they are the ones begging to have a child baptised/christened.

But ultimately everyone should do as they feel most comfy with. For some giving in is no biggie when done for love, to others, not ever giving in, no matter what, is the way to go. Each to their own. I don't think there is an ultimate right or an ultimate wrong.

And just to end, I don't see why I should respect religion as such, I don't. I only respect some people who happen to believe.

 

[Dragonfly]

IMO that person should respect your beliefs, how you bring up your child.

I am pretty sure no one would ask Muslims or any other religion to pop in to a catholic church for a christening to make them feel better. Tolerance is not making somoene convert their child to their belief, thats rather intolerant.

Sa2eb, we have other schools. All catholic. One is mixed. you dont have non religious schools here, or in my area anyway. Controlled or maintained catholic schools. Works on catchments too. Our other choice was much the same only not as good of school.

 

[AngelUK]

I don't understand why you compare a ( I assume you mean religious) Muslim to an Atheist or a non-believer. In fact what I cannot understand is how a non-belief can be held as fervently as a belief. It isn't as if your child will get instantly converted to irrationality as soon as so called holy water touches his skin. Just as much as dressing him up as a fairy won't make him instantly believe there are such things. And as for asking a person of a different religion to the christening (Orthodox and not Catholic though my boys' one was) my best friend was there and she is Jewish. Never did it enter either mine or her head not to attend for that reason. And if she got married in a temple, of course I would attend and I would shout Mazel Tov and cry tears of happiness for her.

 

[Dragonfly]

Because I dont agree with it. And that should also be respected.

 

[MrsHedgehog]

My in-laws are catholic and I was brought up and baptised in Church of Scotland. I have huge problems with the Catholic religion and for that reason refused to have LO baptised in a Catholic church. I'm not sure what I believe but there is no way I'd blatantly lie to a priest just to keep my MIL happy. Also, I don't know about in other countries but here in Italy once you are baptised into the Catholic church your name is on a register and the more names on this register the more powerful the Catholic church is. My sister-in-law actually officially ex-communicated herself so as to no longer have any association with the Catholic church. Being baptised is not just about sprinkling a bit of water on the head.

To the OP, the way we deal with these situations is by having lots of discussion with LO. I can't control what others say to her but I can raise her to be an independent thinker and to have an open-mind which is what we try to do. Good luck x x

 

[Shadowy Lady]

OP - I only have read the original post and here's what I think:

I understand your discomfort. I'm an atheist and come from a non-religious family. My husband is also an atheist but her mom is a devout Roman Catholic. I was worried about her wanting to christen Sofia after she moved here to live with us a few months ago but she didn't. I think IF she was very concerned and worried about it, I would let the christening happen. I think in my case it's mostly because:

1. I like my MIL and don't want to create tension between us.
2. I don't care at all about religion to find it offensive to baptize someone who will likely not follow the religion.
3. I highly doubt Sofia would be a Christian given her upbringing (by me and hubby) so I'm not too concerned about a little ceremony.

At the end, Micah will not necessarily be a religious person because he was baptized. He will grow up and pick his own religion (or lack there of).

Btw, I may have missed it, but have you tried letting your OH talk to your MIL about this?

 

[bumpbear]

We have a similar (but different) problem in that we are an interfaith (some might say lapsed) hindu-muslim couple and we are bringing up our daughter to have an understanding of her background but no particular religious affiliation. We told our parents and extended families at the outset that she could join in with whatever they are doing (e.g. accompany them whilst they are praying, celebrate religious festivals with them etc), but she would have no ceremonies done for her and that as we are not giving her religious instruction, neither should they.

I know they don't understand what we're doing and each family worries that our kid is going to be messed up because she is not following a path they know, but they just have to suck it up! Luckily, so far they have been very respectful of our choices, though she is only 2 and I am not sure how things will pan out as she gets older.