Benefits of bf exadurated?

[CeeDee]

I don't understand the whole judgement on vaginal birth or c section births either, in the UK i don't think you can choose to have a section on the NHS without a medical reason but at the end of the day however you give birth, doesn't rank one higher on the "good mummy" scale some people seem to think exists, same with feeding methods, same with nappies cloth/disposable, mums who put their LO's in nursery, SAHM/Working mum, i hate the divide but for me i have only noticed this online, sorry i've gone off topic here (lets face it the thread went abit OT ages ago) lol!

Because we can hide behind our computer screens!!!

This is so true imo, I have a friend who had all 3 kids naturally, bf every one and never used a stroller. She could care less that I had an epidural, combi-fed and (okay I didn't use a stroller, either lol). Not even an issue. No one cares.

I totally agree with this. The divide is only online. I breastfeed, use disposable diapers, let my daughter tummy sleep, babywear, had an epidural and work full time and I've only gotten support for my choices. I get some weird breastfeeding comments from family members who didn't, but I've recieved nothing, but support for my other choices.

 

[vintage67]

I personally think a combined feeding section would become a nightmare for the mods. Some people can't always play nice. I think with the advances made in formula already and the ongoing research no mother should ever feel guilt. I have done both but brastfeeding my son had major issues because of his blood sugars I needed to see what he was taking and yet some comments about formula make me feel terrible. Yes it's cows milk ...yes breastmilk is preferable but not always the best for your child. What really gets my goat is people saying they would explore other options like donor milk or wet nurses before formula. Both of those things are on the whole not a realistic option for most people so thank god for formula and the amount of babies that live because of its existence and not just live but thrive xx

Formula saved my oldest son's life. Simple. His blood sugars crashed to 18 a couple of days after he was born. My dribbles of colostrum through a syringe were not enough and he was too weak and trembly to latch to me or a bottle. The formula that went through a nasal feeding tube brought him back from a near coma. He was that close. If he had dropped to 15 he would have been in a coma. He continued to have crashes into the 20's for as long as a week after birth and still couldn't latch. I wasn't fortunate enough to respond well to a pump. But knowing all of that didn't stop me from grieving myself in a hole.

With son #2 when I was hospitalized for 2 weeks with a uterine infection when he was a week old. I still couldn't get much out with a pump but with 4 IV antibiotics, and being radiated regularly with C/T scans and MRI's, even the hospital lactation consultants were concerned with any output that I did get.

My husband and my mother were home feeding him formula. I was grateful once again, and this time only disappointed, not suicidal.

I fully support breastfeeding and even offer many suggestions to people about all the things I tried with either son #1 or son #2 that were unsuccessful. All the king's fenugreek and all the king's blessed thistle weren't going to help me. And yes, I tried nipple shields.

I also want to be a comfort to people who like me, were not successful. And this is where I end up getting disliked or told I'm promoting formula, or any other accusation that isn't true. Too often, we can't even offer comfort to those who have to use formula out of extreme situations and despair when breastfeeding didn't work out for them.

 

[vintage67]

It makes sense to me to have 2 different sections because there are very different challenges within those feeding methods, ask me if it's normal for your newborn to feed constantly for 7 hours and I'll be able to tell you, ask me how many oz a baby of the same age should be drinking and I wouldn't have a clue.

I came into this post to say that No, I don't think the benefits are exaggerated (for the most part) but now I just want to give to Vintage, I'm sorry you went through that and I hope I never make a mother in a similar situation feel badly about their "decision" (is there a better way to word that? honest question). I'd never want to make a woman feel guilty but I would love to help support them to be successful breastfeeding with future children if that is their wish. (I'm about to start training as a midwife).

Thank you Kiwi Mom, best wishes on your midwife journey.

Sometimes, I really hate the word "decision" because it gets all of us who use formula lumped into a negative category. (which is unfortunate as well, because there are sound reasons to "choose" formula such as my friend who has MRSA).

My advice would be to be as supportive of breastfeeding as possible without demonizing formula to the point that if a woman is left in that position, she doesn't hate herself or possibly even her baby. In one of my darkest moments I actually screamed at son #1, "Why don't you love me?" because he couldn't latch. Surely there is a way to advocate for something that is natural and beneficial without pushing a mother into depression by thinking she won't "bond" with the baby, or the baby will be plagued with horrible illnesses.

Sometimes the "benefits" of breastfeeding are exaggerated, in my opinion, most likely by well meaning people who are using hyperbole to make a point. It's just important to remember that when you engage in hyperbole for a positive, you set up an equal negative that is disproportionately exaggerated.

 

[chellebelle8]

I think some women I have come across not here I must say but on other forums are so militant about bf that even people who had to use formula for health reasons are failing and it actually makes me glad to have a forum like baby and bump where on the whole people are not as narrow minded. Formula has its place I have no doubt I did the right thing for my son in the end and I honestly think so many of the Bf studies fail to take into account other factors when claiming it's benefits. That's not to say they don't exist but it's not the be all and end all of motherhood x

 

[Athena]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

 

[skunkpixie]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

 

[lovelylaura]

Who cares really? I didn't even realise it was such a big thing until bnb, I tried bf I / my children couldn't do it end off. I will not feel guilty of ff. Freya was in such a state because I couldn't feed her that she was screaming and her whole body was shaking I will not starve my child because someone on bnb looks down on ff. Poppy has hit all her milestones early and has never been ill not even a cold it has not affected her. But no I don't think it's exaggerated but the bond they say it gives is. I have a wonderful bond with my children. I do agree that everyone should atleast try it though as it is what is intended for our children x

 

[Athena]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

That's ok most posts on here you need to add a disclaimer like I'm not being rude but...I read through all of the posts and quite a few of them from the middle of the thread on have talked about childhood illness such as ear infections etc, you can see from the drs visits we've had nothing of the sort and as I said I hope the fact that I BF contributes towards that somewhat, also the fact that they are 'geniuses' as you say, well I wouldn't quite go that far lol but the reason I BF in the first place was to give my children immunity and hopefully boost their IQ, because trust me on this one they needed all the help they can get in that department because their Dad is a DUMB ASS!!

Anyway I did say in the post I went totally off topic which I have a bad habit of doing but the whole thread kind of went off on a tangent so...

People talk about studies and so on, I added my post to add perspective from someone who BF and now has two healthy, smart kids, take from that what you will. I'm not saying it was because I BF BUT if I contributed towards ANY part of that I'm happy!

My disclaimer: Like I said if for whatever reason you did or did not BF that is your CHOICE. I would NEVER think badly of anyone who FF or BF. I didn't post to make anyone feel bad, just to add my experience, that's all

 

[Super G]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

There are quite a few posts on the thread that aren't directly answering the original question. Why pick at this one?

 

[skunkpixie]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

There are quite a few posts on the thread that aren't directly answering the original question. Why pick at this one?

Just beacuase I felt that specifically it wasnt really answering the question at all.

It just felt like a kinda "boast" if you will about how the poster was able to BF her children and look at how smart and healthy they are because of it.

I EBF one of my daughters and EFF the other and they both have never had any ear infections, my BF daughter has had more tummy upsets so far than my FF daughter, and they both seem very smart and ahead for their age so far but I didnt feel this was relevant to the posters question, as its just anecdotal evidence and my personal experience. I thought this thread aimed to question the wider research of the benefits of BF?

 

[bubbles123]

Unfortunately personal experience means nothing though in the wider scale of things. Most people are healthy however they are fed. My OH was FF and is the healthiest most ridiculously intelligent person I know. Both my kids were mixed fed for 1 month then fully FF; they have never had ear infections or tummy bugs. In fact I'm the only person BF'ed for more than 1 month (my Mum did 4 months EBF) and I'm sitting here with the cold from hell which all the FF people, including the baby, didn't catch. This however is not an advert for the amazing immune benefits of Aptamil; rather it's just one of those things. What I think has happened it that the attempts to promote BF have led to hype which mean people think that it is some kind of guarentee of a healthy child whilst formula is a guarentee of a sickly child. I was talking to a Mum at toddler group the other day and her baby has bad eczema all over his face. I was sympathising as my son had it too and she said yeah but you formula fed I'm BF'ing he shouldn't get eczema. She honestly thought BF'ed babies couldn't get eczema. I think in demonising formula they have inadvertently built up BM to be this 'liquid gold' as they say which it is very hard to live up to and may actually cause people to doubt it's benefits, as this thread shows.

 

[MommaAlexis]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

There are quite a few posts on the thread that aren't directly answering the original question. Why pick at this one?

Just beacuase I felt that specifically it wasnt really answering the question at all.

It just felt like a kinda "boast" if you will about how the poster was able to BF her children and look at how smart and healthy they are because of it.

I EBF one of my daughters and EFF the other and they both have never had any ear infections, my BF daughter has had more tummy upsets so far than my FF daughter, and they both seem very smart and ahead for their age so far but I didnt feel this was relevant to the posters question, as its just anecdotal evidence and my personal experience. I thought this thread aimed to question the wider research of the benefits of BF?

This is the problem!! 20pages of FF saying the EXACT same thing, just replace BF with FF. But the second you add breastfeeding suddenly it's bragging. That's not fair to PP. I breastfed for 6weeks, I did EVERYTHING I could to keep going. Turns out she was allergic to my milk. I don't feel guilty for stopping, I pumped, bleeding nipples, poor latch while she screamed for ten hours straight a day. I have no guilt because it was the right decision for us. But that doesn't mean BFing is exaggerated! It just means it wasn't right for Lara and if formula didn't exist she may not have made it.

 

[skunkpixie]

Hi everyone just thought I would give my perspective on things. I BF my son for a year until I had my daughter I then fed her for a further 18 months whilst weaning my son off.

My son is now 13 years old and my daughter is 12. My son has been to the Drs once in his whole life (other than for jabs) and that was for chickenpox which he had when he was 13 months and my daughter got it at 6 weeks old. My daghter has been to the Drs three times once for the chickenpox and twice for tonsilitis that she got when she was 10. They both won platinum awards at school for attendance!

They are both at secondary school and acheiving really, really brilliantly. If my BF has anything to do with that then I am one proud Mamma!!

I was only 18 when I had my son and so many people looked down on me I felt that I had to BF to prove myself. Even the father of my children's mother made me go and sit on the toilet to feed when we went to her house, she also said that she thought it was 'sexual' and that I shouldn't do it. I know I'm getting off the subject here a bit but what I'm trying to say is BF mums get slated too, sometimes when people have FF they just can't undestand why we do it, but I'm so glad I did.

Even though I was so young when I had my first two I feel so proud to this day that I did BF them and would advocate BF and do believe that it is best for baby. At the same time I would never berrate anyone for FF and understand that it is not everyone's choice to BF.

I will definitely be BF this baby and it is one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

Dont mean to be rude but I fail to see how this relates to the OP's question at all?

Is basically what you are saying that because you BF your children and they are both healthy geniuses that you feel the benefits of BF are not exaggerated? Do you feel that they wouldnt have acheived well academically if you formula fed them? xxx

There are quite a few posts on the thread that aren't directly answering the original question. Why pick at this one?

Just beacuase I felt that specifically it wasnt really answering the question at all.

It just felt like a kinda "boast" if you will about how the poster was able to BF her children and look at how smart and healthy they are because of it.

I EBF one of my daughters and EFF the other and they both have never had any ear infections, my BF daughter has had more tummy upsets so far than my FF daughter, and they both seem very smart and ahead for their age so far but I didnt feel this was relevant to the posters question, as its just anecdotal evidence and my personal experience. I thought this thread aimed to question the wider research of the benefits of BF?

This is the problem!! 20pages of FF saying the EXACT same thing, just replace BF with FF. But the second you add breastfeeding suddenly it's bragging. That's not fair to PP. I breastfed for 6weeks, I did EVERYTHING I could to keep going. Turns out she was allergic to my milk. I don't feel guilty for stopping, I pumped, bleeding nipples, poor latch while she screamed for ten hours straight a day. I have no guilt because it was the right decision for us. But that doesn't mean BFing is exaggerated! It just means it wasn't right for Lara and if formula didn't exist she may not have made it.

But this is the formula feeding section. Its supposed to be a safe place for mothers who chose, ended up or had to formula feed their babies to discuss thier feelings, problems and worries WITHOUT the fear of posts being hijacked by people who managed to successfully breastfeed their children and talking about how wonderful it was and how healthy and smart it has made their kids. Good for them, but why post it here?

 

[MommaAlexis]

Because otherwise you get an entirely biased opinion of anecdotal cases. This is a thread asking about facts. The facts are that she BF and her kids are smart. Someone else FF and their kids were smart. That's it. It's not bragging, it's facts. Just like everyone else here has done. The animosity between FFs and BFs is ridiculous. A BFer can't even say she breastfed without being accused of boasting. Just because it's in the formula feeding section, should the ONLY replies be I FF and we're fine? Do you see how that would be false? I'm all for FFing but facts shouldn't be ignored to spare feelings. CHEMICALLY speaking formula is no where near as good, emotionally speaking, convenience, reaction to BFing, pnd, poor latch, discomfort and plain being uncomfortable are what makes formula the better "choice". But that doesn't mean BFing is exaggerated.

 

[Ktothema]

If the op didn't want the opinion of formula feeders then they wouldn't have posted in the formula feeding section ffs. And given this section is where a lot of people who have done both end up it's likely to be a lot less biased.

There are several of us on here talking about science and the facts, not anecdote and personal belief. The truth is these so called benefits don't bear out in scientific study. So to continue to flog the dead horse, a lot of benefits are exaggerated. Doesn't mean some don't exist, just a damn lot of them don't.

 

[skunkpixie]

Because otherwise you get an entirely biased opinion of anecdotal cases. This is a thread asking about facts. The facts are that she BF and her kids are smart. Someone else FF and their kids were smart. That's it. It's not bragging, it's facts. Just like everyone else here has done. The animosity between FFs and BFs is ridiculous. A BFer can't even say she breastfed without being accused of boasting. Just because it's in the formula feeding section, should the ONLY replies be I FF and we're fine? Do you see how that would be false? I'm all for FFing but facts shouldn't be ignored to spare feelings. CHEMICALLY speaking formula is no where near as good, emotionally speaking, convenience, reaction to BFing, pnd, poor latch, discomfort and plain being uncomfortable are what makes formula the better "choice". But that doesn't mean BFing is exaggerated.

But I didnt think that the OP was asking whether people FF or BF and how smart their kids were? I thought she was questioning the research into BF and wondering if it wasnt beyond the realms of possiblity that some of the so called BF "facts" were enhanced or exaggerated somehow? I cant understand how this could be construed as someone asking for personal experience with how their kids turned out dependant on whether they Bf or FF.

Also I am curious to why someone who BF their kids and has no experience with FF would even come into the FF section of a parenting forum, let alone comment on it....

 

[socitycourty]

I don't know why people keep coming into the FF section to tell us about the benefits of BF.

If I went over to the BF section and made a post about the benefits of FF or something I would get ripped apart.

Most of us have tried really hard, we don't need to hear about the damn benefits one more time. Even the f*cking formula can tells us.

I can see why there are 2 separate sections, I rarely go in BF section anymore and if I answer it's only about something I actually did/went thru.

 

[socitycourty]

P.S. I don't think it's only down to "personal experience" or anecdotal evidence when everyone in my family (except our new babies) were only FF and hardly ever get sick. That's a pretty large group of people. Plus, none of us are stupid or obese. that's more than just coincedence for me.

 

[MommaAlexis]

That's what I mean. A bunch of FF said the exact same thing, but you change ONE letter and suddenly Shes boasting. No, she did the exact same thing many others did but she got told her post was pointless and no one else did until now. That's not fair to her.
who's to say that's not just your genetics? Who's to say if you were raised exactly the same but BF you may be .001% smarter? You absolutely cannot say that you wouldn't be, you don't know. So on a larger study scale, it was found that BF were slightly smarter. And by slightly, it is an extremely small fraction. It's not enough that you should feel guilty about. I'm sorry but I hate the bf/ff war, because we are all doing what we can. And your baby loves you NO MATTER WHAT. I don't want people to put down FFers/BFers or ignore facts to make themselves feel better. You shouldn't need to. You did what you did and your LOs are happy. Don't feel like it's an attack on you if someone else says they BF or that there are benefits to BF/FF.

 

[MommaAlexis]

I should clarify I meant people who say certain benefits are exaggerated when they are 100% true just to discredit BFing. Not the ones that are debatable.