Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

The other thing regarding health etc, is that I think I'm right in saying the way a child is fed affects their individual results rather than just compared as a group to babies fed another way, so e.g. my BF baby had an ear infection recently and has eczema. You could compare him with a FF baby his age and say that baby is healthier so far and has never had eczema or ear infections but the important thing is for my child, if he were formula fed he'd likely have had more ear infections and worse eczema. That's why I feel some people are missing the point a bit when they say, "My FF baby is very clever and healthy" etc.

As for all women knowing the risks of formula already, even on BnB, which is made up of people who are literate, interested in reading and discussing about baby stuff etc, I've seen blinkees in sigs which say "FF babies are Just as Healthy, Just as Smart, and Just as Loved as BF babies". Just as loved, totally, of course. But the other two?



Yes. Just as healty and just as smart. Prove otherwise.

Well, the 'smart' thing is debateable actually, but there is a shed load of evidence out there that shows us that overall FF aren't as healthy as BF babies, unless of course, you're debating that there's are any 'benefits' to BF or risks to FF? (however you want to put it)
 
As for all women knowing the risks of formula already, even on BnB, which is made up of people who are literate, interested in reading and discussing about baby stuff etc, I've seen blinkees in sigs which say "FF babies are Just as Healthy, Just as Smart, and Just as Loved as BF babies". Just as loved, totally, of course. But the other two?

would it be better if we had a blinkie that said "I deliberately chose to put my child at risk of obesity, infection and lower iq- but i'll love my fat dumb sick little baby anyway"

your statement is exactly why those blinkies exist. Im sorry if i come across as really really annoyed- im trying not to be- but to insinuate that my child isn't all that she could be because of the method of feeding is hitting way too close to home. And there is a huge difference between "risk" and a guaranteed outcome.

I don't see the need for any binkies tbh, which is why I don't have one. It's just how someone feeds their baby. It's not something so relevent to me that I need everyone to know about it.

I do however, understand why someone would be proud ot BF, given the difficulties some people overcome in order to do so, but I've also seen binkies that say 'proud to FF' and other than being defensive and that being the reason to have one, I am not sure why anyone would be 'proud' to FF? not that there is anything wrong with it, that's not what i am saying, but being 'proud' implies some sort of achievement to me.
 
I don't see the need for any binkies tbh, which is why I don't have one. It's just how someone feeds their baby. It's not something so relevent to me that I need everyone to know about it.

I do however, understand why someone would be proud ot BF, given the difficulties some people overcome in order to do so, but I've also seen binkies that say 'proud to FF' and other than being defensive and that being the reason to have one, I am not sure why anyone would be 'proud' to FF? not that there is anything wrong with it, that's not what i am saying, but being 'proud' implies some sort of achievement to me.

I think blinkies just represent a viewpoint. Perhaps what you think of as proud and what they think of are two different things. I think that you are missing that perhaps they are offended by lactivists criticizing their parenting. The blinkies and signatures are just a way to say "Hey I'm happy with my parenting style and I don't want to get in an argument about it, but it is important for people to know that not every parent cloth diapers, co-sleeps, and breastfeeds and that it is ok not to."

I don't know, perhaps some women are offended by my pro-NFP blinkies, but despite my strong beliefs I'm never going to criticize or judge a woman for using BC. That would just make me someone who was insecure about myself and my beliefs to the point that I'd need to lecture others and make them fall into line with my thinking in order to validate it.

Perhaps that is the difference between someone who is secure in their beliefs and someone who isn't. :shrug:
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- (i'm not proud that I FF but thats not the point) Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

I do understand midori's point. BFing is a hard slog for most in the first few weeks, and it is an achievement. When only a few percent of women manage to breastfeed past the first week, I think a little pride has a place. With formula, 'proud' never feels quite the right word. It's not a physical achievement in the way BFing is. I can only liken it to women who have 'proud home birth achiever' or 'proud natural birther' or similar. I wouldn't have a 'proud c-section' blinkie, because it's not the same personal achievement as labour.
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

Perhaps you can explain to me why you do feel proud then? (and I am not saying that anyone should feel ashamed at all in any way before anyone thinks that!)

And as I have said before, I 'failed' to BF three of my children. I don't feel any guilt, nor have I ever felt judged in any way because of it. Maybe that's because I am totally Ok with that myself?
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

I do understand midori's point. BFing is a hard slog for most in the first few weeks, and it is an achievement. When only a few percent of women manage to breastfeed past the first week, I think a little pride has a place. With formula, 'proud' never feels quite the right word. It's not a physical achievement in the way BFing is. I can only liken it to women who have 'proud home birth achiever' or 'proud natural birther' or similar. I wouldn't have a 'proud c-section' blinkie, because it's not the same personal achievement as labour.

Thanks Patch, you've explained it pretty well there. :thumbup:
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

I do understand midori's point. BFing is a hard slog for most in the first few weeks, and it is an achievement. When only a few percent of women manage to breastfeed past the first week, I think a little pride has a place. With formula, 'proud' never feels quite the right word. It's not a physical achievement in the way BFing is. I can only liken it to women who have 'proud home birth achiever' or 'proud natural birther' or similar. I wouldn't have a 'proud c-section' blinkie, because it's not the same personal achievement as labour.


This is ridiculous? Personal achievement? Honestly, apparently there has been some sort of cultural shift that is truly lost on me. I did not have a child to feel "empowered" or prove my womanhood through as much personal pain and sacrifice that I could accomplish for myself. This seems to be a common theme amongst a lot of younger women and I find it very odd. It isnt like women have been increasingly belittled or marginalzied in our society; it's quite the opposite in the business world political world, etc.

Oh, there's always been a "nasty" competitive streak in women! I experienced in the business world and was sickened by it. I have seen it in nightclubs and was sickened by it. It came as a huge shock to me that getting the "man", getting the "job" and pushing every other woman out of the way would reach the extremes of "sport motherhood." It has truly grown ridiculous.

A woman who had a c-section is no less of a "woman" than anyone else. The baby is just as "real" and was nurtured in her womb and loved as much as the mom who birthed in a tub at home or anywhere else.

I was very shocked to find this online and to a lesser extent in real life 7-8 years ago when I had my first child. I have never had many female friends and thought motherhood would finally provide a bond with other women. But this is far, far from the case.

I had a baby to love; to add to our family. I wasnt out to "prove" anything. I have medical conditions and 200 years ago, or far less than that, I probably would have been childless or died in childbirth. The attitudes and opinions of today's 18-23 year old "motherhood expert" must be quite jarring and upsetting to IVF moms, moms who adopt or foster children, etc. I can't say they aren't deeply upsetting to me, but at 44 I have years of experiences and maturity to have a bit of perspective. I have an 8 year old and a 7 month old and I'm not an expert parent or birther, or anything else and can't imagine running all over the internet telling people they are less of a woman or their kids will be fat and stupid. It's kind of out of control.

Throughout my adult life, all 26 years of it, from the age of 18 to now, I've had plenty of successes and plenty of failures. Some of the failures are harder to put in perspective than others and harder to accept. But some old adages that are far older than I am are still true. One of these is, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." So wrapping all the way back to the original post, a negaive campaign on BF and making negative "failure" attacks on the very real choices that women have to make in childbirth and in feeding make make the claimant feel self-righteous but at the cost of alienating the general public. And if the goal is to attract more people to a practice, then this is not the best method. If your goals are purely self-congratulatory and self-serving, then congratulations.
 
I seriously think you have missed te point in the csection comment!!I think she explained it excellently.no one said you are any less of a woman for having a csection!!the whole point she was trying to make is if you give birth naturally YOU have to physically push the baby out,your body does ALL the physical work to birth the baby.so yes I think this is an achievment!in a csection you are doing what is best for your baby and you however YOU are not getting the baby out physically yourself.a doctor is cutting you open and taking baby out.there is nothing wrong with needing a ceaser and no one is saying there is!totally taken out of context.
I think its a perfect analogy for the bf ff projected debate...I'm going to be real here and say that while their is nothing wrong with having to ff,what physical effort have you got to celebrate achieving which would merit a ticker?it is not physically demanding or painful to pop a bottle in a babies mouth.it is (usually) not a struggle.bf is a struggle and an achievement once mastered.
 
I seriously think you have missed te point in the csection comment!!I think she explained it excellently.no one said you are any less of a woman for having a csection!!the whole point she was trying to make is if you give birth naturally YOU have to physically push the baby out,your body does ALL the physical work to birth the baby.so yes I think this is an achievment!in a csection you are doing what is best for your baby and you however YOU are not getting the baby out physically yourself.a doctor is cutting you open and taking baby out.there is nothing wrong with needing a ceaser and no one is saying there is!totally taken out of context.
I think its a perfect analogy for the bf ff projected debate...I'm going to be real here and say that while their is nothing wrong with having to ff,what physical effort have you got to celebrate achieving which would merit a ticker?it is not physically demanding or painful to pop a bottle in a babies mouth.it is (usually) not a struggle.bf is a struggle and an achievement once mastered.

I didn't really find FF and BF any different in terms of effort. Actually it kind of hurt my arm more to FF than BF. Maybe that is just me though.

As to the c-section, I don't see why having a natural birth is an achievement - it is natural. I wanted one and was pushing for it up until the day they thought I fractured my pelvis. I don't feel any different having had a section over a vaginal birth.

None of the things you mentioned are achievements or particularly harder than their counterweights. Now, if you were to tell me you've climbed every mountain in the Western Hemisphere or finished medical school at 18, we'd talk. :winkwink:
 
I seriously think you have missed te point in the csection comment!!I think she explained it excellently.no one said you are any less of a woman for having a csection!!the whole point she was trying to make is if you give birth naturally YOU have to physically push the baby out,your body does ALL the physical work to birth the baby.so yes I think this is an achievment!in a csection you are doing what is best for your baby and you however YOU are not getting the baby out physically yourself.a doctor is cutting you open and taking baby out.there is nothing wrong with needing a ceaser and no one is saying there is!totally taken out of context.
I think its a perfect analogy for the bf ff projected debate...I'm going to be real here and say that while their is nothing wrong with having to ff,what physical effort have you got to celebrate achieving which would merit a ticker?it is not physically demanding or painful to pop a bottle in a babies mouth.it is (usually) not a struggle.bf is a struggle and an achievement once mastered.

I didn't really find FF and BF any different in terms of effort. Actually it kind of hurt my arm more to FF than BF. Maybe that is just me though.

As to the c-section, I don't see why having a natural birth is an achievement - it is natural. I wanted one and was pushing for it up until the day they thought I fractured my pelvis. I don't feel any different having had a section over a vaginal birth.

None of the things you mentioned are achievements or particularly harder than their counterweights. Now, if you were to tell me you've climbed every mountain in the Western Hemisphere or finished medical school at 18, we'd talk. :winkwink:

The fact is, lots of women do find BF an 'effort' and that is one of the reasons why although around 75% of women in the UK start out BF, a huge proportion of them don't continue.

I personally feel I have made a huge achievement by breastfeeding my child. For a start, I did it in spite of the mass of misinformation given out by health professionals. I was in horrendous pain for the first 4 weeks, have had mastitis 11 times and have now had to make the decision to feed from one breast only and am putting off breast surgery I need in order to continue breastfeeding. My body alone grew my daughter from conception until she was 6 months old and to know that is hugely empowering.

Of course, not all women have the same journey or feel the same way, but I can certainly see why some women would view breastfeeding their child as achieving something.
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

Perhaps you can explain to me why you do feel proud then? (and I am not saying that anyone should feel ashamed at all in any way before anyone thinks that!)

And as I have said before, I 'failed' to BF three of my children. I don't feel any guilt, nor have I ever felt judged in any way because of it. Maybe that's because I am totally Ok with that myself?

I did actually edit my post to add that I don't feel proud. But SO WHAT if I did. I just get so tired of being told over and over and over that I don't have a right to feel proud or happy about the way i feed my child. That the inference is that - yeah she's alright but you may have harmed her and she would have been awesome if you had just got a bit more education or perseverance.
 
I seriously think you have missed te point in the csection comment!!I think she explained it excellently.no one said you are any less of a woman for having a csection!!the whole point she was trying to make is if you give birth naturally YOU have to physically push the baby out,your body does ALL the physical work to birth the baby.so yes I think this is an achievment!in a csection you are doing what is best for your baby and you however YOU are not getting the baby out physically yourself.a doctor is cutting you open and taking baby out.there is nothing wrong with needing a ceaser and no one is saying there is!totally taken out of context.
I think its a perfect analogy for the bf ff projected debate...I'm going to be real here and say that while their is nothing wrong with having to ff,what physical effort have you got to celebrate achieving which would merit a ticker?it is not physically demanding or painful to pop a bottle in a babies mouth.it is (usually) not a struggle.bf is a struggle and an achievement once mastered.

I didn't really find FF and BF any different in terms of effort. Actually it kind of hurt my arm more to FF than BF. Maybe that is just me though.

As to the c-section, I don't see why having a natural birth is an achievement - it is natural. I wanted one and was pushing for it up until the day they thought I fractured my pelvis. I don't feel any different having had a section over a vaginal birth.

None of the things you mentioned are achievements or particularly harder than their counterweights. Now, if you were to tell me you've climbed every mountain in the Western Hemisphere or finished medical school at 18, we'd talk. :winkwink:

The fact is, lots of women do find BF an 'effort' and that is one of the reasons why although around 75% of women in the UK start out BF, a huge proportion of them don't continue.

I personally feel I have made a huge achievement by breastfeeding my child. For a start, I did it in spite of the mass of misinformation given out by health professionals. I was in horrendous pain for the first 4 weeks, have had mastitis 11 times and have now had to make the decision to feed from one breast only and am putting off breast surgery I need in order to continue breastfeeding. My body alone grew my daughter from conception until she was 6 months old and to know that is hugely empowering.

Of course, not all women have the same journey or feel the same way, but I can certainly see why some women would view breastfeeding their child as achieving something.

But the thing is that breastfeeding and vaginal childbirth are what a body is designed to do. It is like a bunch of healthy people going around patting themselves on the back for their bodies functioning normally while people who have MS or cancer are looking on. It is just kind of bizarre, know what I mean? Women are for the large part not choosing to have c-sections out of convenience but because they have issues that might have resulted in their death in centuries past. The same with formula feeding - many of these babies would have died in previous centuries or had stunted growth.

I think women and their children who have survived their body betraying them had a right to feel proud as well. To survive something that would have been a death sentence in generations past is not a lesser accomplishment than having a healthy functioning body.
 
We're not talking about women who have survived cancer etc though are we? I agree to survive any sort of adversity, whether it's illness or not is an achievement, BTW, it's just not relevent to this discussion.

Breastfeeding is what the body is designed to do,or producing breastmilk is, but that doesn't mean breastfeeding is easy or doesn't require any effort. If it was or didn't,t hen most women would be happily breastfeeding and this topic wouldn't even be valid.

For most women, breastfeeding is a skill that has to be learnt, both by mother and child, whether it is what we are designed to do or not.
 
i get a little tired of having to "accept" that as a formula feeder that I shouldn't feel proud or happy that my daughter is on formula- Its insinuated that I was uneducated when I made my "choice" to FF and that my daughter is doomed to a lifetime of not "quite" making the grade like her BF peers because of my uneducated decision.

And yes i did try my best- but it doesn't mean that gives me any solace.

and you wonder why we feel guilt when we fail. I do hope hope for your sake that you are never humbled or brought as low as I have been because a parenting "choice".

Perhaps you can explain to me why you do feel proud then? (and I am not saying that anyone should feel ashamed at all in any way before anyone thinks that!)

And as I have said before, I 'failed' to BF three of my children. I don't feel any guilt, nor have I ever felt judged in any way because of it. Maybe that's because I am totally Ok with that myself?

I did actually edit my post to add that I don't feel proud. But SO WHAT if I did. I just get so tired of being told over and over and over that I don't have a right to feel proud or happy about the way i feed my child. That the inference is that - yeah she's alright but you may have harmed her and she would have been awesome if you had just got a bit more education or perseverance.

So what if you did? I am just asking why, no one is telling you how to feel.

I also don't think anyone is inferring anything, just stating facts.

Edited as having read that back it sounds a bit arsey and it's not meant to. Sorry.
 
We're not talking about women who have survived cancer etc though are we? I agree to survive any sort of adversity, whether it's illness or not is an achievement, BTW, it's just not relevent to this discussion.

Breastfeeding is what the body is designed to do,or producing breastmilk is, but that doesn't mean breastfeeding is easy or doesn't require any effort. If it was or didn't,t hen most women would be happily breastfeeding and this topic wouldn't even be valid.

For most women, breastfeeding is a skill that has to be learnt, both by mother and child, whether it is what we are designed to do or not.

But we are talking about something perhaps worse than cancer in a way. Some women CAN NOT breastfeed. It doesn't matter if they have a lactation specialist living with them or they love the concept of it - their bodies will not work. In centuries past, if these women were not wealthy and could not afford a wet nurse, these children would have DIED. You are speaking to women in this very thread who could not sustain a child with breast milk. I'm sure natural selection should have killed my mother and me so we wouldn't have these ongoing issues, but alas I'd rather not let my future children die or be a foot shorter than me out of some misguided hippie natural selection project.

A very few women need to learn how to BF or have difficult children, that is true, but all in all it isn't always the case.

Some women could also not birth a child naturally. They would have died and so would have their baby. I'm failing to see why their survival is anything less than a modern miracle of science and something to celebrate.
 
I see 'well done Mummy you did a great job', many many times when a baby is born, never once have I thought that meant that this was a dig at my girls dying and therefore me doing a crap job :shrug:

I have had four vaginal births and one section, all as equally proud of them. However, I FF my first two and dont have the same proudness as I did for the six weeks I BF my fourth, it was hard work and i was shouted at for having flat nipples by the mw just 24 hours after birth. I had no support and I had no idea about BF at all, so yes I am proud even if we didnt last that long.
 
We're not talking about women who have survived cancer etc though are we? I agree to survive any sort of adversity, whether it's illness or not is an achievement, BTW, it's just not relevent to this discussion.

Breastfeeding is what the body is designed to do,or producing breastmilk is, but that doesn't mean breastfeeding is easy or doesn't require any effort. If it was or didn't,t hen most women would be happily breastfeeding and this topic wouldn't even be valid.

For most women, breastfeeding is a skill that has to be learnt, both by mother and child, whether it is what we are designed to do or not.

But we are talking about something perhaps worse than cancer in a way. Some women CAN NOT breastfeed. It doesn't matter if they have a lactation specialist living with them or they love the concept of it - their bodies will not work. In centuries past, if these women were not wealthy and could not afford a wet nurse, these children would have DIED. You are speaking to women in this very thread who could not sustain a child with breast milk. I'm sure natural selection should have killed my mother and me so we wouldn't have these ongoing issues, but alas I'd rather not let my future children die or be a foot shorter than me out of some misguided hippie natural selection project.

A very few women need to learn how to BF or have difficult children, that is true, but all in all it isn't always the case.

Some women could also not birth a child naturally. They would have died and so would have their baby. I'm failing to see why their survival is anything less than a modern miracle of science and something to celebrate.

Well, I'm a BF peer supporter, so I see a lot of women who are struggling to BF. It's not a few, it's a lot. 90% of women say they stopped breastfeeding before they wanted to. That suggests that some sort of problem stopped them, don't you think?

Yes, some women cannot breastfeed. A very small minority of them are physically unable to produce enough milk and we know this because evidence and research tells us.

Low milk supply is cited as the no. 1 reason women stop BF, but very, very few women have low milk supply because of a bilogical 'problem' that means they cannot produce enough milk. More often, low milk supply has a cause which can be corrected.

I do appreciate that more support for women would not enable every single woman who wanted to to breastfeed. However, I am also not sure why some women see someone saying that more support would help a lot of women who want to to BF as some sort of insult.
 
Look the fact that the majority of women *want* to BF when they have a baby means that the message is getting through. But what everyone is fighting against is a whole generation (our mothers) who didn't BF. How can 50 years of misinformation be corrected in 5 minutes. I agree- there needs to be better support - but there has to be some understanding- making those 90% of women who gave up before they wanted to feel like utter shit- is really not the answer- I tell you now because of all the grief on line and IRL that i have gotten about not breastfeeding- to say that I am ambivalent about BF next time is an understatement.

Edited to add- and from my experience it would be nice if there was a bit more support to get through the grieving process if BF is too hard to establish- Personally I had a million cheerleaders when i was trying to establish BF and 1 person who threw me a life line when it went to shit.
 
Honestly, i FF my daughter, i couldn't breastfeed due to medications and i have no guilt.
I am "proud" to FF because the way i see it, i am feeding my daughter, shes happy, healthy and thriving. I'll stick her in a line up with 10 BF babies and challenge you to pick her out.
Some parts of this thread are becoming confused, FF are more likely to suffer certain illnesss's. Doesn't mean they will. I know women who EBF and those children suffered with diabetes, eczema, asthma and cancer. Just as i know FF have.
Yes BF is wonderful, but why should i feel any less proud than you as a parent because i didn't BF? I shouldn't.
 

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