Dinosaurs in religion

Weird... wrote a long message last night before some of your other replies and got a message that it was being checked by a mod before posting or something like that. Just testing if I imagined that... Cos my reply took me ages and now I am not sure if it actually worked or not (I have been able to comment on other threads no problem)? :shrug:

I am guessing somebody was upset with a pp of mine as others have been able to post ... if so, I am sorry that you are upset and you are welcome to take it up directly with me :flower:
 
OK... seems that I can make replies to this thread, maybe I said/did something else wrong to trigger the "mod needs to check"?

Anyways, it was a really long post and may show up so I will try not to repeat it :haha: But if it does, sorry people for repeating my long windedness :blush:

Aliens, Dinosaurs, Bible and Dragons

I do find it interesting that if you strongly believe in an invisible God with no proof (I mean like hey I am here talking to you directly, look at me kind of proof) it is normal, and if you believe just as strongly in aliens you can be seen as weird, and perhaps a bit loopy!! :haha:

I love sci fi and I love the idea of aliens being real. But I am not really sure and haven't done a great deal of research into it. I do recall seeing a doco on national geographic (a channel like that) about some stone structures that were the inspiration for the stargate TV series (loved that show!). Due to myths, shapes and a how lot of theory guess work some historians feel that these were perhaps an ancient transport device.

So many cultures and civilizations have dragon stories. Incidentally in Job 40-41 there are scriptures that talk about a creature called leviathan that certainly sounds like the mythical dragon. This creature is described as having fiery breath, tight fitting scales and sharp teeth.

There is another creature called Behemoth. This one really does sound more like a dinosaur, with reference to it's height being that of a cedar tree (meaning really, really tall I think, I'm no expert!!). And that its tail was like a cedar tree too.

I personally find the Bible to be very interesting from a historical perspective. This book has shaped civilizations, cost many, many people their lives and 2000 years after it was written people still "follow it" despite in my opinion it being full of glaring contradictions. And yes I have actually read the Bible!!

I also wonder why people who believe in the whole literal Bible feel that God of the Bible is good and loving... because I find a God that condones murder, rape, baby killing, genocide, incest etc to be the opposite of good and loving.

Atheism is not a religion at all, just a way to categorize people in a religious discussion easier. This quote sums up how I feel regarding the real "truth":

“The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world” – Max Born

Interesting discussion :)
 
Ok, another thought (can you see why I didn't succeed on ALPHA)

If everything has a creator, who or what created God?
 
I been reading some really interesting stuff on this thread. It will be hard for me to explain some things, I don't even know the absolute answeres.

But as for dinosaurs: This link will explain it well for you.

https://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible.

In short: yes there were dinosaurs and they did exist.


As a Christian myself, born and raised...

If everything has a creator, who or what created God?

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/unicorns.html

About Adam/Eve in regards to children

Cain and Abel were not the only kids on earth. Adam and even had many sons and daughters, after all he lived until 930! and they all had kids, and so on. Back then no one knew about incest or that medically it wasnt good to do so,. when you think about it God told them to populate the earth they wouldnt just have 2 kids.

The thing about the bible, man was inspired by God in what to record. Not eevrything is told in the Bible. Which can cause people to guess, assume and so on.

This site here is an awesome place for FAQ's that many people question

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
 
I do find it interesting that if you strongly believe in an invisible God with no proof (I mean like hey I am here talking to you directly, look at me kind of proof)

Well for one, I see plenty of proof all around me. We all marvel and are in awe at nature.

What about a computer the size of a pinhead that computes at the rate of a billion organized computations in 1/1000 of a second? A Honeybee. Or what about a computer the size of a cantelope that stores the memories of a lifetime in the electrical orientations of trillions upon trillions of molecules - and INDEXES them for instant retrieval? Our memory!!

It would seem that 1,000,000,000,000,000 organized neurological connections in of the brain would be sufficient to provide for memory of a lifetime. But research has shown that is far too small a number, especially when all of the neurons that form the connections are doing other tasks. Recent discoveries have shown that memories, skills and learned abilities are not just functions of an alternating and constantly changing electrical network like a computer chip, as science first believed. But instead, they are functions of the electrolization of the individual molecules that form each of the billions of neurons in the brain.

According to evolution somehow these 1,000,000,000,000,000 individual neurological connections that perform the functions of the human brain randomly came together through a series of accidental mutations in just the right arrangement. This translates into the accidental manufacture of a hard-wired electrical network containing approximately the same number of organized connections as there are leaves on the trees in a forest that is half the size of the United States.

According to evolution random chance produced a system for storing the memories of a lifetime into the electrical arrangement of the individual molecules in your brain. This arrangement is another undecipherable non-physical digital code. You believe that this non-physical digital code "grew" along side of the method for storing memories, by millions of beneficial mutations.

We could replace all of our storage systems with one human. Thats the capacity for information storage in our brains. Any volunteers? :)

Just to name 2 examples of brilliant design seen in nature. Accident and blind chance created all the diverse intricate design we see over and over again in nature. Its just not reasonable or satisfactory to me.

Everything else we observe in the physical world.....a house, a computer (nothing in comparison to a human brain), a cup, a watch all had a designer and a maker did it not? Yet its reasonable to conclude that far more brilliant precision, design and timing is by chance? I cannot and will not ever accept this reasoning.

If u were really objective and if u really divested yourself of all preconceived opinion about God, would you really conclude that things like a human brain were produced by millions of unobserved accidental beneficial mutations and dying animals?

But would one acknowledge what you do not believe in order to preserve your reputation and your income? Probably so.

So, even where the observations of science point toward a Creator, evolutionary scientists exclude Creationism a priori because it conflicts with a theological position that a Creator must not, under any circumstances, exist.

What is this reasoning that forecloses a particular opinion because it conflicts with the theological position that God does not exist? What is this reasoning that no matter what the evidence may be, one avenue of thought is forbidden from the beginning? Is this rational, honest inquiry?

Imo, How can the opinions of scientists like this have any credibility whatever in the creation / evolution controversy? It is like discussing the implications of DNA with a man who will not consider the possibility that atoms exist.

What business does science have in positing either the presence or the absence of a Creator?

The reason why evolutionists will not do this is because evidence for intelligent design is all through nature, and evolution can come nowhere near explaining what has been observed.

Richard Dawkins funnily enough, summed it up nicely

"Even if there were no actual evidence in favor of the Darwinian theory ... we would still be justified in preferring it over rival theories [creationism]."

Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (NY Norton, 1986), 287, emphasis in the original


"Science, by definition, CANNOT posit a supernatural force [a Creator] as an explanation, because science has NO MEANS of empirically testing supernatural events or causes. Therefore, it is OUTSIDE the realm of science."

The un-refuted response:

The argument is circular

If science, by definition, cannot posit the existence of a Creator, then science cannot be used to prove that a Creator does not exist.

Science does not have all the answers, and makes mistakes as all imperfect humans do.

We all have to look at the evidence, and in a non biased logical sense determine which we think to be a reasonable conclusion.

We all have the right to do so. But either argument has an element of faith. I choose to put my faith in God as i believe we have a creator so the flip side will never hold for me as being the truth.

Then there is the fact that by drawing close to God i feel his presence and guidance in my life. We all have an inbuilt spiritual need whether we acknowledge it or not.

So yes i believe in God and i dont believe its blind faith at all and this is not even mentioning the bible which for me is further proof as thorough study of it has convinced me it Gods word.


I personally find the Bible to be very interesting from a historical perspective. This book has shaped civilizations, cost many, many people their lives and 2000 years after it was written people still "follow it" despite in my opinion it being full of glaring contradictions. And yes I have actually read the Bible!!


Please detail the scriptures and accounts of these' glaring contradictions' Thanks:flower:


I also wonder why people who believe in the whole literal Bible feel that God of the Bible is good and loving... because I find a God that condones murder, rape, baby killing, genocide, incest etc to be the opposite of good and loving.

Again i dont see why you feel the need to repeat this without detailing the accounts as i know the bible very well and this is simply not true. Several posts have reasonably explained incest and there was nothing sinister about it :shrug: and the only thing i can think of that u are referring to is God removing the wicked - ending their lives. I touched on this earlier that as our creator he is well within his rights to do so to carry out justice. Removal of the wicked for the benefit of the good. We do the same thing really in our judicial system today, remove criminals from society for the benefit of everyone else.

In fact, God actually acted on behalf of Jacob’s descendants, now numbering into the millions (see EXODUS [The Number Involved in the Exodus]), protecting them during a campaign of genocide by the Egyptian government (Ex 1:15-22) and finally freeing them from harsh slavery to Egypt’s regime.

Another thing i thought of that you might be referring to.... His judgment of the people dwelling in the land of Canaan. One scholar offers this shocking description: “The worship of Baal, Ashtoreth, and other Canaanite gods consisted in the most extravagant orgies; their temples were centers of vice. . Canaanites worshiped, by immoral indulgence, ... and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods.” Archaeologists have discovered jars containing the remains of the sacrificed children. Although God noted the error of the Canaanites in Abraham’s day, he showed patience toward them for 400 years, allowing them ample time to change.—Genesis 15:16.

Were the Canaanites aware of the gravity of their error? Well, they possessed the human faculty of conscience, which jurists recognize as a universal basis for morality and justice. (Romans 2:12-15) Despite that, the Canaanites persisted in their detestable child sacrifices and debased sex practices.

Jehovah in his balanced justice determined that the land needed to be cleansed. This was not genocide. Canaanites, both individuals such as Rahab and whole groups such as the Gibeonites, who voluntarily accepted God’s high moral standards were spared. (Joshua 6:25; 9:3-15) Rahab became a link in the royal genealogy leading to the Messiah, and descendants of the Gibeonites were privileged to minister at Jehovah’s temple.—Joshua 9:27; Ezra 8:20; Matthew 1:1, 5-16.

Consequently, when one seeks the full and clear picture based on fact, it is easier to see God as an admirable and just God, and good way that benefits his faithful followers and by his actions he showed he did not condone their practices such as killing babies and children. The very opposite in fact to how u have presented him.

Rape is never ever condoned by God in the bible, i have no idea where u got this idea from and even the killing of an unborn child is considered murder and forbidden by God (again as clearly stated in his word)
 
Ok, another thought (can you see why I didn't succeed on ALPHA)

If everything has a creator, who or what created God?

The Bible answers that God did not have a beginning. God has always existed. As difficult as the concept of God’s eternity is to grasp, we cannot dismiss the idea simply because we cannot fully comprehend it.

God is not a physical form as we are and abstract ideas are hard for most of us to comprehend. Yet, we sometimes deal with challenging concepts, such as positive and negative numbers. Counting numbers can go on endlessly, either up or down. Could we not apply this example to the years in the life of the Creator?

Just as the universe is thought to be infinite is hard for us to comprehend so, he has existed and will exist forever, but we do have an understanding of what forever means - the bible says that he has put the desire to live forever into our hearts, i mean none of us want to die right?
 
I think this thread needs to be relocated to the Debates section, because we are now at the point of evolution being attacked rather than alternate explanations being shared. :flower:
I have no problem supplying refutes to the last few posts, but I don't think that was supposed to be the point of the thread.
Fair discussion on the matter is better off in the designated debates section, I think.
 
It wasnt intended to be an attack and dont quite see how it was one, just my view on the matter in what i observe in creation itself :). Im sorry it came across that way. It was asked how one could believe in a God we cant see. So i answered that, i think thats fair. :)

To be fair, religion and God has been attacked through this thread, labelled as a load of pish, unreasonable etc and evolution not, no one bats an eyelid. Its so disrespectful but its always tolerated....

Nothing science says about evolution will change my mind, its not infallible, so its simply how i view and see things and is reasonable considering thats exactly how the possibility of a creator is viewed in science. Its not.
 
I have no problem supplying refutes to the last few posts, but I don't think that was supposed to be the point of the thread.
.

No it wasnt it was about dinosaurs in religion. I wasnt the one who took it off track and turned it into a religion and God and the bible is pish attack. This is ok but disagreeing with evolution is not? I agree completely unfair.

I think my subscription to this thread is over.

Apologies to anyone who was offended, i do respect others views but wish the same applied both ways :)
 
Shanandboc, I think there were several posts before yours that moved us into this territory. :flower:
In fact, I think your contribution has been great food for thought and I have enjoyed reading your posts (as always! :))! I just think that we are now well into the territory of debate, rather than sharing explanations, and would love to carry on this discussion with that being recognized as such.
And I would like to say that this is a great discussion to have. As a scientist, I have had some really special experiences teaching kids of faith-based belief systems about various natural science concepts, and can say unequivocally that as long as we all agree that this planet is a sacred and beautiful thing that we all need to honour and care for, then I think we'll all find common ground! :flower:
 
***removed original post***

I had shared my story about leaving the Jehovahs Witness religion, and my reasons for doing so.

Because I shared some ugly sides to the faith and their practices, some current JWs got upset.

I did not make anything up, or slander the religion as I was accused of. I had full references from the JW religions own publications to back everything I said. However I still have chosen to remove it because when I wrote it I knew there was at least one current JW on this thread, so I own that that was not very fair for me to hang out the JW religions dirty laundry and I understand in hindsight how it could have been misconstrued as a personal attack which it was not meant to be at all. It was just my story.

So sorry for the derail and for not thinking before posting :flower:
 
@hotbump I am really sorry to hear about the loss of your niece. :cry:

@tallybee I remember we weren't really supposed to read anything from other religions because it might damage our faith. My husband had the book of Mormon to study so he could "preach" better to Mormons, no-one in our congregation cared about that (I have no reason to doubt that guys story due to the fact that some congregations can be stricter than others). I would politely take things that were offered to me and then dutifully throw them out :blush:
 
Woah... ok. Firstly, I think listing criticisms or condradictions about one particular poster's faith is unfair and reads as an uncomfortable attack. Secondly, I agree this should now go to debates. I'll request that it is moved.

xx
 
Oh wow Nomadlife your post is completely inapprpriate and offensive. I dont know why u feel the need to slander or tell lies about JW's (which have no proof btw) or what this remotely has to do with this thread. If your going to believe what you read on apostate websites then your choice But i dont believe that any website that exists simply for the purpose of simply slandering anyone holds any merit.

I never singled you out, the fact that u were a JW is irrelevant tbh, i simply responded to your posts just as i did to others

Im ending my subscription to this thread as i said earlier so dont expect me to read or post anymore, its no longer a respectful or relvant discussion to the OP. :(

Thanks all for the friendly exchange of opinion and beliefs.
 
Hey shanand boc I am sorry you felt I was attacking you, I really should have thought about how it comes across on the internet more!!
 
All the things I said are true, which is why I included the references.

But I am sorry, as I kind of got swept up in my emotion about how I have been treated etc I wasn't trying to make you personally out to be a bad person - because I am sure you are not.
 
I have the Bible info as you asked for shanandboc (bible references to rape, murder, genocide etc and bible contradictions that you asked for), but if you don't want me to post it I understand. :flower: I included the WT references so you (and anyone else) can see I am not making this up, it is very easy to use your watchtower library to verify everything I said.

However I was wrong for derailing the thread to talk about the JWs everyone. I went through hell and back due to this religion, I lost family, lifestyle, home, my support network and more so it can make me sometimes make errors in judgement, I should not have shared my JW experience on this thread.

Peace :hugs:
 
back to the original discussion on dinosaurs anyone?
 
I touched on this earlier that as our creator he is well within his rights to do so to carry out justice. Removal of the wicked for the benefit of the good. We do the same thing really in our judicial system today, remove criminals from society for the benefit of everyone else.

I created my son does that mean I have the right to "remove" him if I think he is a danger to others

That was the main thing that bothered me about church, as religious as I am (adveragly, not to the extent of following the bible word for word) was contantly being told my son belonged to god and we where just looking after him.
It was just a way of putting it that realy botherd and upset me.
 
It's a long thread, and LO is taking her nap so I don't want to spend all of that time reading, so I'm just going to hazard to post my own opinion on the matter. I hope I'm not repeating too much of what others have said.

I'm Christian (Episcopalian to be exact), and I think that science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. Albert Einstein is famously quoted as saying, "The more I study science, the more I believe in God." There are parables within the Bible, and stories to help explain themes and philosophical beliefs. For me, the idea of evolution seems so much more grand and fascinatingly driven by a higher power than the creation story as it is written. Everything had to be just so in order for every step of the process to occur as it did.
 

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