Do you think CC/CIO is wrong?

[moomin_troll]

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, its only wrong if the child is being ignored because the parent cant be bothered to deal with them.

But where is the difference in the impact on the child. I believe that cc/cio is wrong largely because of the hormone/stress release in the brain and the chemical reaction this can cause, the long term effects of this leading to detachment, emotional issues, trust issues etc. Whether the parent is doing cc/cio out of a perceived notion that they are doing the child good, or because they just 'can't be bothered to deal with them'. The fact remains, that a baby is being left to cry for a substantial amount of time. The chemical release to the brain doesn't stop just because the parent is sitting on the other side counting down the 5/10/15 mins until they can go back in there.

So there is little differance between someone who doesnt go to deal with their baby because they just cant be bothered to get up because there is somthing good on tv and someone who is at the end of the rope with a baby that has been crying all night for no obvious reason, they have been fed, changed, cuddled, has had no sleep themselves for 48 hours, has no partner available or friends and family to help out and have exhausted all options and crying because they just dont know what is wrong or if they are doing somthing wrong.

Sorry but somtimes the world isnt as black and white as do this and dont do that.

i agree! when a baby is just crying and nothing is working all thats going to happen is the parent will get frustrated and then that negative energy will effect the baby more then just putting the baby down and walking away for a min.

 

[PepsiChic]

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, its only wrong if the child is being ignored because the parent cant be bothered to deal with them.

But where is the difference in the impact on the child. I believe that cc/cio is wrong largely because of the hormone/stress release in the brain and the chemical reaction this can cause, the long term effects of this leading to detachment, emotional issues, trust issues etc. Whether the parent is doing cc/cio out of a perceived notion that they are doing the child good, or because they just 'can't be bothered to deal with them'. The fact remains, that a baby is being left to cry for a substantial amount of time. The chemical release to the brain doesn't stop just because the parent is sitting on the other side counting down the 5/10/15 mins until they can go back in there.

So there is little differance between someone who doesnt go to deal with their baby because they just cant be bothered to get up because there is somthing good on tv and someone who is at the end of the rope with a baby that has been crying all night for no obvious reason, they have been fed, changed, cuddled, has had no sleep themselves for 48 hours, has no partner available or friends and family to help out and have exhausted all options and crying because they just dont know what is wrong or if they are doing somthing wrong.

Sorry but somtimes the world isnt as black and white as do this and dont do that.

i agree! when a baby is just crying and nothing is working all thats going to happen is the parent will get frustrated and then that negative energy will effect the baby more then just putting the baby down and walking away for a min.

The point of the research is that a baby left to cry that is not consoled or comforted is effected by the cortisol, so whether your not bothering to see to your baby or you cant for whatever reason the cortisol is still going to effect the baby the same. if you at least hold or comfort your child your reducing the impact from the cortisol.

 

[smokey]

I have seen many a post on here from otherwise brilliant mothers admiting to being a little rougth or snapping at their baby after a strestfull time trying to get them settled and feeling awfull for it afterwards.
Isnt letting them cry for a little bit sometimes a hell of alot less dangerous then a stressed out parent making a bad split second reaction?
I think alot of pressure is put on a parent to not let their baby cry and sometimes it can all get a bit too much and result in anything from shouting at the child to shaking them all somthing that the parent would probably never even realise they where even capable of doing.

Somtimes leaving them and stepping aside for a few minutes to take a breather, calm down is the better option for them and the baby.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

I agree smokey, Hv's advise is to put the baby down and leave them until the mother has calmed down. I'm sure a shaken baby would be much more at risk of long term effects and even death. Compared to the minimal effects leaving them to cry may or may not have xx

 

[PepsiChic]

I have seen many a post on here from otherwise brilliant mothers admiting to being a little rougth or snapping at their baby after a strestfull time trying to get them settled and feeling awfull for it afterwards.
Isnt letting them cry for a little bit sometimes a hell of alot less dangerous then a stressed out parent making a bad split second reaction?
I think alot of pressure is put on a parent to not let their baby cry and sometimes it can all get a bit too much and result in anything from shouting at the child to shaking them all somthing that the parent would probably never even realise they where even capable of doing.

Somtimes leaving them and stepping aside for a few minutes to take a breather, calm down is the better option for them and the baby.

of course if you feel like you will hurt your baby you should walk away...but if you dont then i dont see the reason to leave them to cry.

 

[smokey]

I have seen many a post on here from otherwise brilliant mothers admiting to being a little rougth or snapping at their baby after a strestfull time trying to get them settled and feeling awfull for it afterwards.
Isnt letting them cry for a little bit sometimes a hell of alot less dangerous then a stressed out parent making a bad split second reaction?
I think alot of pressure is put on a parent to not let their baby cry and sometimes it can all get a bit too much and result in anything from shouting at the child to shaking them all somthing that the parent would probably never even realise they where even capable of doing.

Somtimes leaving them and stepping aside for a few minutes to take a breather, calm down is the better option for them and the baby.

of course if you feel like you will hurt your baby you should walk away...but if you dont then i dont see the reason to leave them to cry.

And of course if your happy enough to continue attempting to sooth the baby then go for it (I was untill about the 3rd day of no sleep)

But thats what I mean by sometime you just have to do what you have to do for your own sanity and wellbeing of yourself and the child.
Somtimes it gets to the point of no other option and that doesnt make a bad mother that just makes a stressed desperate mother.
Like I said before the world isnt as black and white as do this and dont do that.

 

[Laura2919]

I have seen many a post on here from otherwise brilliant mothers admiting to being a little rougth or snapping at their baby after a strestfull time trying to get them settled and feeling awfull for it afterwards.
Isnt letting them cry for a little bit sometimes a hell of alot less dangerous then a stressed out parent making a bad split second reaction?
I think alot of pressure is put on a parent to not let their baby cry and sometimes it can all get a bit too much and result in anything from shouting at the child to shaking them all somthing that the parent would probably never even realise they where even capable of doing.

Somtimes leaving them and stepping aside for a few minutes to take a breather, calm down is the better option for them and the baby.

of course if you feel like you will hurt your baby you should walk away...but if you dont then i dont see the reason to leave them to cry.

I do. The one thing I didnt want is my girls to think that each and every time they cried they would be picked up and consoled so they could just keep on crying until they got what they wanted. I dont want to be controlled by my child. Just because I did CC doesnt mean I dont love my children any less it just means I want them to understand that they can settle themselves without needing me every single time.

 

[PepsiChic]

I do. The one thing I didnt want is my girls to think that each and every time they cried they would be picked up and consoled so they could just keep on crying until they got what they wanted. I dont want to be controlled by my child. Just because I did CC doesnt mean I dont love my children any less it just means I want them to understand that they can settle themselves without needing me every single time.

And how old were they when you choose to do CC? Did you not do something with them while they were still babies?

a baby cannot manipulate you into picking them up when they feel like it. they simply dont have the thought process to do that at such a young age. you cannot be controlled by a baby like that.

that is why methods like PUPD are very effective, it allows you to go to them and pick them up and console them, they are not old enough to make it manipulation, and by the time they are old enough to be able to understand manipulation they have already learnt to self-settle and wont need to do that.

 

[stardust599]

But PUPD doesn't work for everyone. PUPD was worse than CC for us.

It went something like this. We would wait for her tired signals do our nap/bedtime routine and put Macy in the cot awake. I would sit in a chair in the corner of the room and wait for her. As long as she couldn't see me she was fine for 10mins and then would start to fuss and cry on/off so I would go and lift her to comfort her. She thought it was a game and would grab at my hair, jewellery etc. so I would put her back down since she was calm. She'd grin at me still thinking we were playing a game and then when I walked away she'd start to cry and get upset. So I'd pick her up and she'd think we were playing again. Etc. etc. over 50times you get the idea, then she's fed up of the "game" and starts to rub her eyes and the crying/fussing got worse and she was no longer interested in me and this is where the real distress started. Every time I touched her or picked her up to soothe her she'd absolutely scream and sob blue murder because she'd been trying to get to sleep and I'd disturbed her. I could keep going and going with it getting worse and worse until the crying was so bad she was hyperventilating and on the verge of being sick - I couldn't be that cruel to her so started to just leave her to it (with checks and reassurance without touching or disturbing her) and even now she gets extremely upset if anyone tries to talk to her or move her when she's trying to get to sleep or asleep - she just can't switch off and block stuff out

 

[smokey]

Thats like with Brian, we were actualy quite lucky with his sleep for most of it he was very good but some days he just didnt want to sleep.
I always made sure it wasnt because he was hungry or needed changing but some nights going in to check on him or pick him up made him worse.
It got to the point some nights id have to crawl into the bedroom on my hands and knees and peek into the crib then sneak back out (often kneeling on a toy and having to bite my tounge) because if he saw me he would just get hysterical.

I dont think I remember actualy leaving him to cry it out as such, maybe I did and just blocked it out but a few occasions I had to leave him to grizzle and whine with the odd frustrated scream even at a few weeks old because if I went in thats when he would then start crying.
Another problem we had was he cries in his sleep, always has done and still does no one knows why we even had him in the hospital under sleep observation.
He used to hold his head up in his sleep (he had very good neck control from birth) and then that turned into rolling over in his sleep then sitting up in his sleep now he stands up in his sleep and trys walking around his cot and all the times hes normaly crying because its disturbing his sleep and he cant get into a deep sleep because of it.
He normaly always goes down easily but then im having to check on him or lay him back down about 6-7 times a night.

Young babies have trouble with their nerves fireing off because they are new and just starting to be used and that keeps the brain active (thats why alot of babies have twitching fits in their sleep) so some just cry for no obvious reason.

Even from an early age Brian was just too alert sometimes, he was wide awake and just couldnt switch off and putting him to bed seemed to frustrate him so we would have to let him grizzle and moan and sometimes cry a little untill he eventualy drifted off.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

I don't think you can apply to PUPD to all children. Aidan actually used to get more upset when I rocked him,soothed him etc(this was at about 7 months). He would scream,whereas with CC all he got to was a winge. Every child is an individual and different sleep training teqniques will work for different babies x

 

[smokey]

I don't think you can apply to PUPD to all children. Aidan actually used to get more upset when I rocked him,soothed him etc(this was at about 7 months). He would scream,whereas with CC all he got to was a winge. Every child is an individual and different sleep training teqniques will work for different babies x

Brian hated to be cuddled or even held somtimes right from the off, it broke my heart to have him suddenly get hysterical if I tried to cuddle him.
Its only been the last few months hes decided cuddling up to me isnt so bad but it has to be on his terms if I try to pick him up and hold him he lashes out at me or throws himself about.
As a newborn he would curl (and I literaly mean curl up)up on my chest and doze but if I tried holding him awake he would just screaming and push against me.
Adding to that the thought of your just trying to sooth them and your baby is clawing at you and pushing away it can get very stressfull and heartbreaking.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

I don't think you can apply to PUPD to all children. Aidan actually used to get more upset when I rocked him,soothed him etc(this was at about 7 months). He would scream,whereas with CC all he got to was a winge. Every child is an individual and different sleep training teqniques will work for different babies x

Brian hated to be cuddled or even held somtimes right from the off, it broke my heart to have him suddenly get hysterical if I tried to cuddle him.
Its only been the last few months hes decided cuddling up to me isnt so bad but it has to be on his terms if I try to pick him up and hold him he lashes out at me or throws himself about.
As a newborn he would curl (and I literaly mean curl up)up on my chest and doze but if I tried holding him awake he would just screaming and push against me.
Adding to that the thought of your just trying to sooth them and your baby is clawing at you and pushing away it can get very stressfull and heartbreaking.

It was awful, Aidan was slighlty different, from a newborn he would quite happily fall asleep with me rocking him and singing him favourite lullaby. Once I got a bath with him and he feel asleep on my chest, it was amazing skin to skin. But then when he hit about 6/7 months any attempt to rock him to sleep was just a battle he would scream and arch his back trying to free him self of my arms, I would put him down in his cot and he would instantly calm down to just a whimper, then I would pick him up and he would thrash. Me rocking him was far more trauamtic for both of us than just leaving him to winge and slowly drift off. It was defainlty heartbreaking it felt like he hated me all of a sudden and my comfort wasn't good enough . So in the end I would put him in his cot leave him to winge for 5 mins, go back in turn his mobile back on and leave.

With regards to is CC is wrong.It took about 3 nights and now he is a great sleeper and he even tells me when he is ready for bed. His bedtime is 7:30, but before now at 6:00-6:30, he says "Mummy bed please". He can regulate and decided when he needs sleep. He is also the most indpendant, soical little boy and he still comes to me for comfort. He has even been moved up to pre-school at nursery almost a year early because he is that far advanced in his social and emotional development. He can interact with others as well as a 3-4 year old can. People in this thread have said CC can effect them emotinally and soically, in my littoe boy you can see no evidence of this. You can find a study that will support any claim you make, statistics can be twisted to proove any point. In my time as a nursery nurse and training to be a pediatric nurse one thing appears time and time again. That is individuality, every child is different and they each have inidvidual needs. I beleive parenting should reflect this, it should be catered to that child's individual needs.

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

PU/PD didn't work for us either. I didn't / don't understand what the thinking behind it is. For us - Ruby would have eventually gone to sleep because she'd given up and/or got worn out from crying which is the same as how I generally view CC/CIO. Being repeatedly picked up and then put down offered her no comfort all. Besides, she'd start crying again before I'd even laid her down in the cot! Not trying to offend people, just saying it was a fail for us, I expected it to work as the stuff about it says it always does, and if not, you're doing it wrong, but I swear I wasn't!
She got there in the end with self settling anyway!

 

[TennisGal]

Pu/pd didn't work for us, either. Just made Lizzie more agitated...it only works now! If she is having a bit of a grump now, a cuddle and resettle works wonders...but before, no chance!

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

Yep, same in this house now!

 

[stardust599]

Same here too. She usually settles easily at bedtime after a little kiss and cuddle but sometimes 10mins later she'll start to cry and a quick cuddle and saying sleepy time again and she goes down. We have the odd night waking too where we do the same. I think people take the crying part too literally, my LO knows how to self-settle now so generally if she cries there's a problem or I know she just needs a bit of reassurance.

But if I was to put her down to sleep, wait for her to fuss (she always does fuss and whine a bit) and then go in to reassure her she gets majorly upset at being disturbed!
xx

 

[Laura2919]

I do. The one thing I didnt want is my girls to think that each and every time they cried they would be picked up and consoled so they could just keep on crying until they got what they wanted. I dont want to be controlled by my child. Just because I did CC doesnt mean I dont love my children any less it just means I want them to understand that they can settle themselves without needing me every single time.

And how old were they when you choose to do CC? Did you not do something with them while they were still babies?

a baby cannot manipulate you into picking them up when they feel like it. they simply dont have the thought process to do that at such a young age. you cannot be controlled by a baby like that.

that is why methods like PUPD are very effective, it allows you to go to them and pick them up and console them, they are not old enough to make it manipulation, and by the time they are old enough to be able to understand manipulation they have already learnt to self-settle and wont need to do that.

So explain how a baby can settle better when cuddled all the time to when they are in their cot alone, surely thats a thought process. They know they are more comfortable in someones arms that in this cot/moses basket and thats why they cry when put down. They might not know the words but they know the feeling.
My babies werent newborn when I did CC. In my previous post to the one you quoted you can see I said I dont think CC with a newborn is appropriate.

Im happy I did CC. I am able to put my children to bed at 7pm and they go off without needing me to rock or cuddle them to sleep. They are happy and healthy.

What I dont understand is how everyone can say that all babies are different and then in the next breath says CC affects children in a negative way, surely all children are different so that cant apply to ALL children.

 

[AppleBlossom]

^^ I agree. Using sleep training with my daughter has not caused her any harm or affected her negatively. She is a very happy, healthy, lively girl who has no problem expressing her emotions. PUPD didn't work for us either. It just made things worse. I agree with what Laura says, I wanted Grace to learn that she could settle herself and that she didn't need me to do it for her. And within less than a week it worked and since then she has gone to bed herself and slept through the night. I'm afraid, for me at least, I have never been able to find anything negative about it. I have never been about mollycoddling her, if she falls and bangs her head (not badly obviously) I will just pick her up and say "oh you'll be fine" and give her head a rub or a kiss and off she goes. I don't make a fuss about it because it would just make her worse. Same with sleeping, I didn't make a huge fuss of her whinging to get out of bed, I just let her get on with it and it worked. If it makes me cruel, so be it. I would do it again in a heartbeat if need be.

 

[KittyVentura]

Kota- thank you for posting Claire Niala's link, I was on my mobile so I couldn't locate it properly.

If you read the article it really mirrors my perception of crying babies, and why I feel, crying should be the exception, not the norm. Kitty I know you insinuated that perhaps they were doing something sinister to shush the babies, but that's not the case at all.
With my own children, I have had so many comments of "how come your baby doesn't cry" - like its an expectation that babies should cry. This is not an attempt to sound smug, just another view point of crying, and whether or not it is/should be viewed as "normal."
My LOs always gave me cues, eg, if she is hungry, she would stir abit, then suck her fist, then make this sound "hefefef" then a short sharp "wah" then, if after that I still had not attended to her need for feeding, it would become a cry.

I hope I have made sense, I just wanted to put my point across. I know most people will not agree with me on this, but from an African point of view, I can assure you, the sound of a baby crying is not accepted as the norm. Sometimes people wonder if indeed there is a baby in the area lol.

You've made perfect sense. I couldn't find the initial post but if I remember rightly the words used were something like "It's seen as unacceptable for a baby to cry" or similar. It was the word unacceptable, in reference to the most commonly known communication method used by babies that made me baulk and think it sounded sinister. Though when explained I see exactly what you meant.

Fin would also give me cues. He'd suck his fist when hungry and then make a cough type sound when hungry. When tired he'd go red around the eyes and turn his head to the left. When in pain with his reflux... well he'd just scream. He'd be held, rocked, worn, swung, swaddled, shhhed etc etc and still he would scream until the pain passed. I would always see to his needs before he had cried... I'd get up as soon as he made an awake noise at night etc rather than waiting for a cry etc etc. But the reflux was the exception. Often he'd be crying and I'd be crying though and I'd never put him down. He cried on me and I would cuddle him until it passed.

Overall though, especially now his reflux has gone, Fin hardly ever cries. We've even been on daytrips with other BnB mummies who've commented on his lack of crying.

I can see exactly where you are coming from and for the most part I do agree. However, in my experience, even knowing your childs pre-cry signs like the back of your hand, being baby led and attending to needs so diligently... babies still do cry. They might not all do it frequently... but it is their main communication method to let us know when they want something or something is wrong.

xx