Giving birth without assistance....

[Bournefree]

Personally I'm not planning for an unassited birth (but with my hospital's staffing levels you never know!?!)..
I do trust my MWs not to be overly keen and "hands off".. and if they can't do that for me, then I'll just remind them! ;-).. but careful, mindful patience with a keen eye, is what is needed from MWs
(Oh and it helps to have good support and a clear idea of what you do and don't want.. least you don't have to consider that with a UC)
Xxx

 

[NaturalMomma]

I respect and support the decision to have an unassisted birth or a freebirth. It is not something I am personally comfortable with for myself.

 

[lozzy21]

We discussed the legal implications in Sliver's orginal thread: Hope this helps
xxx

Congratulations on your safe arrival.

Unfortunately without trying to cause offence i do not understand why people would even consider unassited births. I understand that in the USA it is VERY medicalised and i can see the need for it, but here in the UK it is illegal to purposefully have a unassisted birth and also for a untrained person to act as a birth attendant.
As a trained professional i have seen many beautiful low risk births but also the other extreme where people are simply lucky to have the TRAINED professional there.
Yes there are many WHAT IF's and no it does not mean they will happen, but if they did i think it would be irresponsible to put yourself in a position to have to deal with them (or not) with what is basically no experience. Yes people who choose this option research these things and scenarios greatly, but if that were all were needed, ppl would not have to dedicated minimum 3yrs (hr in the UK) to have the privilege to assist women in their birth experience. I believe that no amount of research or "basic" medical training can prepare anyone for childbirth emergencies.

I know this sounds like a harsh post, (im sorry) i do respect womens rights and opinions and support women in these choices, but i would not be doing my job if women did not know EVERY possibility and risks involved. I do not believe that feeling a baby move tells you a baby is safe, - when babies are starved of oxygen it is not uncommon for them to have excessive movements as they fight for their life. This is why when we monitor fetal movement we look for changed and excessive as well as none or reduced.


ANyways, my rant over. Apologies if i have offended, it was not my intention but simply to express my opinion, and stress that free birthing is ILLEGAL in the UK. I would be very concerned for my ladies if i thought that a, they would intentionally go through with this, and b, they had that little trust in their midwives that they felt they could not let us support them in their birthing experience.

Again, Congratulations on your safe arrival. x

I have to correct the above.

As a lawyer I can tell you this is NOT true under the laws of England and Wales.

Firstly, you have ultimate freedom to birth in your own home or anywhere without any attendants - whether you do this intentionally or not. It would be a very strange state that would make a physiological function of the human race an illegal act. This right is also enshrined in Human rights law (it was also recently commented on and examined in the case of Ternovszky v Hungary 2010 "the right concerning the decision to become a parent includes the right of choosing the circumstances of becoming a parent. The court is satisfied that the circumstances of giving birth incontestably form part of one's private life")

Secondly, the only thing that is illegal is for a person to purport to act or intend to act as a midwife. This doesn't included OHs, doulas, your grandmother.. or even a kind bin man or anyone who is present at your birth.
It is an unfortunate common misconception (even among medical professionals)

Here is the Law:
Midwifery Order 2001, Paragraph 45
1) A person other than a registered midwife or a registered medical practitioner shall not attend a women in childbirth
2) Paragraph (1) does NOT apply -
a) where the attention is given in a case of sudden or urgent necessity; or
b) in the case of a person who, while undergoing training with a view to becoming a medical practitioner or to becoming a midwife, attends a women in childbirth as part of a course of practical instruction in midwifery recognised by the council or by the general medical council.


Had to clear that one up, as it could be very damaging to women's choices and freedoms

XXX

So are you saying that as long as your intend to become a midwife, professional etc that you are exempt from this law??

It is illegal for a not qualified person to purposefully act as a midwife etc. Even if it is OH/DOula etc. Obviously BBA's etc (born before arrivals) are very different cases but to act if i were "almost" qualified i would not have a leg to stand on as such if i were to act as that womens midwife and deliver her baby knowing that i have the "knowledge", just the same as i see "doctors" procedures all the time, i know the medical ins and outs, and could probably manage to deliver a baby etc, as such for a c-section but i would loose my job if i thought i could just perform this even in the case of a emergency.

I appreciate that this is not the same, but to say it is not illegal for a doula etc to act as the midwife , even if they intend to proceed to the career is wrong. (Apologies if i interpreted your comment wrongly)

As for no one knowing ALL the risks, i disagree that is why doctors trained for 7+yrs they are the experts and midwifes are the experts in "normal" childbirth.

Sorry, I think you have interpreted me wrong - Or I haven’t made it clear.
I'm not saying that any man and his dog whether they be a trainee MW or a doula are exempt and free from prosecution if they purposely intend to act as a midwife. It is illegal for anyone to do so. (I should have made that clearer when I mentioned the bin man etc)

This act was made to stop a lay-person from pretending to be a MW or a medical person with a women in childbirth. It is not to prosecute someone who is in the same room as a women in child birth offering support or encouragement and be in attendance i.e present, but they can not attend to the women. (there in lies the difference). So, if a person did something physical to the mother (attended her) or they were saying they intended to act or be a MW (which wasn't in an emergency) they would be liable to be prosecuted.
If it is an emergency, (imminent point of birth would count as an emergency) such as in paragraph 2.. paragraph 1 doesn't apply. Say there isn't a MW or medical professional available or even if there is a MW present an they need assistance with the mother, then ANY lay-person (the bin man, even a trainee MW OR trainee Doctor) could attend to the mother. (with her consent - if possible)
You wouldn't loose your job if you attended a women in an emergency (anyone can). However if you are a trainee MW you can’t touch a women (certainly not without consent anyway.. But neither can any registered MW) if it isn‘t an emergency unless it is part of your training and a registered MW is also in attendance.
However, if it was an emergency (no professionals available) and you were not with a women as part of your training, and you failed to act (unless asked not to by the women) you could certainly be sued, or worst case is, if the mother then died as a result of your negligence, you could be liable for murder by omission.

To summarise
- There is NO law against unassisted childbirth in England and Wales;
- Anyone can be present.. but they can't pretend to be a MW;
- Plus anyone can assist in an emergency and attend the mother.

It is very important everybody knows this; I would hate to think that any MW could be telling any pregnant women it is illegal to birth unassisted in the UK or to have there nearest, dearest or trusted with them, or for their nearest and dearest or bin man to help a women in child birth if needed.

I'll happily answer any questions, so it can be fully understood.
Xxx

A woman i know had an unassisted pregnancy and birth and first the authoritys tryed to prosacute(sp?) her for having an unassited birth but as she had done her homework they couldent take it any futher but refused to give her the relivant form to get a birth certificate so tryed to get her that way. Luckily she had kept copys of every letter and email so when they took her to court she could prove she had tryed to get one.

Its not something that i would ever do but if some one though it was the right choice for them in the UK they would realy need to do their home work to avoid problems.

 

[Mervs Mum]

It happens a lot and without exception the families who plan to free birth definitely do their homework. I'd say on the whole freebirthers are much more informed than your average hospital / home birther.

 

[Greta Chick]

i had the midwife at my house... infact i had 4, but they just sat chatting amongst themselves (it wasnt a planned homebirth but i had prepared just incase)

as with my 2nd child i asked for the midwife not to touch me..... no pain relief and caught the bubba myself was amazing..... midwife was there ready to clamp the cord and help deliver the placenta

it was a very laid back... relaxed experience. x

Now that sounds fab, I hope the midwives in my area would do that too.

Sarah.xxx

This is how my births were with both of my DDs. DD1 was born at a birth centre in water and the midwife examined me on arrival then didn't touch me again until I delivered the placenta - she stayed at the back of me and hardly spoke, I just had DH sat in front of me to hold his hand. DD2 was born at home (you can read her birth story if you click the link in my sig) and the midwives both kept quiet and basically left me to it myself which was again what I wanted.

HTH

xx

 

[Rmar]

I would not but only because of my experience. I understand wanting to as I felt this way myself but call it intuition or something because we eventually decided against it and I am glad. I had a PPH which was taken care of by my midwife and doctor who worked together brilliantly and I was able to stay home for treatment. I know that DH would not have known what to do which would have left me as the only person knowing what to do in the case of PPH and I was not in the right frame of mind to help myself. With the midwife being there, I was able to lay back and get to know my baby while they were mucking around with injections, massaging my fundus and checking blood pressure for a good half hour after the bleeding started.

But there is no place for my judgements based on my experiences in other women's choices. Lots of people have traumatic experiences that leave them saying "I would have died if I was at home"; some of which who would have had a similar experience to me.

 

[Bournefree]

Very good points Rmar.

I'm not sure I'm going to come across right with this next comment from me.. ?? (cut me some slack if I don't get it right!)

…but it irks me no-end when I talk about home birth and then I get the "well baby or I would have died if I hadn't been in hospital" gambit.
I think it is because I perceive it to be a little ill-informed of how home birthing actually works. All us home birthing mummies have a choice to go into hospital at any point, and have whatever treatment is needed - and I grateful it is there - but I certainly don't want to start that way... and (here is the potentially offensive bit) I do think that when you look into some (not all) of these ladies experiences, you can see where they didn't recieve appropriate support, and interventions lead to interventions. That is not to say it is their fault, far from it - just that I think the system failed them; such as they wern't given enough time, good positions, were overly monitored, and became (rightly so) very very scared.
Xxx

 

[Mervs Mum]

Amen to that Bourne! 100% agree!

 

[tristansmum]

Very good points Rmar.

I'm not sure I'm going to come across right with this next comment from me.. ?? (cut me some slack if I don't get it right!)

…but it irks me no-end when I talk about home birth and then I get the "well baby or I would have died if I hadn't been in hospital" gambit.
I think it is because I perceive it to be a little ill-informed of how home birthing actually works. All us home birthing mummies have a choice to go into hospital at any point, and have whatever treatment is needed - and I grateful it is there - but I certainly don't want to start that way... and (here is the potentially offensive bit) I do think that when you look into some (not all) of these ladies experiences, you can see where they didn't recieve appropriate support, and interventions lead to interventions. That is not to say it is their fault, far from it - just that I think the system failed them; such as they wern't given enough time, good positions, were overly monitored, and became (rightly so) very very scared.
Xxx

i understand where you are coming from... some inventions cause more problems than they solve. i'm not sure in my case... there is no doubt in my mind my son could never have been born naturally. i laboured to 10cm in a variety of position without an epidural. i then pushed for almost 2 hours, again in a variety of positions. they then USS my tummy due to him not moving down and dipping heart rates and found his chin to be tilted upwards and so unable to decend. they attempted to move him with forcepts but it was an emergency c section in the end and i know they were concerned about him and heart rate due to the number of neonatal staff in the operating theatre. thankfully he is fine. i do wonder at what point in a home birth they would have sent me to hospital... after the 2 hours of pushing? cause i know 2 hours is quite acceptible. it is something i really do wonder about... also what if i'd been at a birthing centre???

I guess women who had a hard birth ending in c section/assisted delivery/some sort of heamorraging ect say if i'd not been in hospital we wouldn't have made it because it COULD have been the case. None of us know what will happen and what if this or what if that. i gues we are just thankful we were in hospial and everything did turn out ok. i hope i'm making sense. just trying to explain why its said.

 

[SmokyJoe78]

That makes perfect sense Bourne - I totally agree

 

[Nikki_d72]

I agree too Bourne, and I was one of those women, I fully thought they had "saved us" until I looked into it a lot more after I found out I was pregnant again.

Tristansmum, I know what you are saying, and whether the outcome would be different at home I guess would depend on how far from the hospital you are? Glad the wee fella is fine! Can I ask if you were doing coached (directed) pushing?

 

[lozzy21]

Very good points Rmar.

I'm not sure I'm going to come across right with this next comment from me.. ?? (cut me some slack if I don't get it right!)

…but it irks me no-end when I talk about home birth and then I get the "well baby or I would have died if I hadn't been in hospital" gambit.
I think it is because I perceive it to be a little ill-informed of how home birthing actually works. All us home birthing mummies have a choice to go into hospital at any point, and have whatever treatment is needed - and I grateful it is there - but I certainly don't want to start that way... and (here is the potentially offensive bit) I do think that when you look into some (not all) of these ladies experiences, you can see where they didn't recieve appropriate support, and interventions lead to interventions. That is not to say it is their fault, far from it - just that I think the system failed them; such as they wern't given enough time, good positions, were overly monitored, and became (rightly so) very very scared.
Xxx

What narks me off is when people say "oh good job you were in hospital then" why? They dident to anything in hospital that they couldent have done at home.

 

[tristansmum]

I agree too Bourne, and I was one of those women, I fully thought they had "saved us" until I looked into it a lot more after I found out I was pregnant again.

Tristansmum, I know what you are saying, and whether the outcome would be different at home I guess would depend on how far from the hospital you are? Glad the wee fella is fine! Can I ask if you were doing coached (directed) pushing?

not entirely sure what you mean?? I was pushing when i was contracting. i had no pain relief at this point so could feel them and push when they came. to be honest its such a blur that i've forgotten specifics and times ect if you know what i mean. i really do wonder if things could have been different. i try not to focus on it too much cause its in the past and nothing can change that... and i don't need it changed cause i have my son safe and sound. but next time i think i will hopefully be more prepared. i guess you don't know what to expect first time round.

 

[beccad]

I don't know if anyone has posted this site up - it's quite useful https://www.homebirth.org.uk/law.htm

Birth doesn't have to be a medicalised, hospital experience. You should be allowed to give birth at home if you're low risk. https://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/HavingABaby/Givingbirth/DG_171254

 

[Mervs Mum]

I think she means were you being told when to push or were you just going with what your body.

 

[tristansmum]

I think she means were you being told when to push or were you just going with what your body.

i think she just told me to push when i felt a contraction... no weird counting like on one born USA. lol

 

[Mervs Mum]

But did you actually feel like pushing or did you push with the contraction because you were told you were fully and then told to push with the contractions? I know it sounds pinikety but there is a difference!

This blog post explains it quite well and also includes the Royal College of MWs paper that advises against pushing just because you are 'fully dilated'.

 

[tristansmum]

no i needed to push. i was pushing uncontrollibly at 9.5cm... was hard to stop but i think i got into a different position. to be honest though it was all such a blur cause it was a long labour that i can't remember details. i will read that link. its quite interesting looking on different forums. i hope you don't mind me being in here... i feel a bit of a fraud cause i had to have emergency c section but i like to see different opinions on things. plus i hope to vbac in the future so its nice to see other peoples experiences. xxxx

 

[Mervs Mum]

We don't mind at all!! We love having you here!! There are no entry requirements at all just tolerance and respect for differing views! You'll find us a pretty amenable bunch and it's probably the one of the most welcoming places on the web! xx

 

[Mervs Mum]

Oh and contrary to what some would say, it's fine to push uncontrollably at 7/8/9 or whatever you are! That's kind of the point of the article and paper. It's not about how many centimetres you are at all. It's about what your body is telling you to do