Jehovah's Witnesses

[November1984]

Just had a couple of lovely old ladies at the door, they didn't preach or linger and I have nothing against what they believe in (just to make that clear )

But....it got me thinking....why are they allowed to knock on peoples doors and talk about their beliefs?

The way I have been badgered before by religious people makes me think...

should I carry around a pamphlet w/atheism viewpoints and knock on people's doors, stop them in malls, etc?

Oh wait, that would be offensive.

Although I am offended by religious people asking me, "If I know the purpose of life".

I am only agnostic now because I cannot disprove the existence of mythological beings, I don't believe in one though.

Gods are like this to me: In order for a statement to be logical it MUST be falsifiable and presented in a way it can physically be tested.

Nobody knows where god is supposed to be, color, shape, location. How can anyone logically dispute 'god' if the people who believe in god don't even know what god is?

That's why if I call myself an atheist I feel like it's overstepping my boundaries saying I, 100% know god isn't real because it was physically tested - just like the people who badger me for not believing in god, they are 100% sure god exists although no real studies can prove that.

Don't get me wrong, I respect religion as long as it's not used for fear mongering, etc BUT I do not appreciate someone knocking on my door about it. That makes my blood boil.

PS the bible does contradict itself. I studied religion (was forced to in school). I can quote all kinds of passages of absurdities, violence and contradictions if anyone wants.

 

[Serene123]

Well i was raised a witness, went and did my own thing for a while and then me and my DH started studying again recently ( he was not religious at all) i was pregnant and we were going to get married anyway but did it a little earlier so we were married before little Elleah came along.

Everyone , including family has been very supportive, they just want to help us do what is right.

Obviously sex before marriage is a no no, but as we are both unbaptized, we were just supported to try and right the wrong IYKWIM. As long as you dont keep on practicing sin willfully, then the support is there to help you along.

But you had sex before you were married?

Using the wacko emoticon is quite rude, without even bothering to read the rest of this thread and asking me about it in a polite way

Read my above quoted post when i was respectfully asked this question earlier.

I do that emoticon when I'm confused.

 

[Serene123]

I don't like people coming to my door to scare me into being what they want everyone to be. It's evil. I thought preaching was a sin anyway, shows how much I know.

 

[dani_tinks]

I find religion very contradicting and more often than not causes trouble/arguments.. WARS!
I refuse to open my door to JWs due to them ramming their beliefs in my face when I really didn't need it.

 

[November1984]

I find religion very contradicting and more often than not causes trouble/arguments.. WARS!
I refuse to open my door to JWs due to them ramming their beliefs in my face when I really didn't need it.

Here's some:

God is our only savior, wait - JESUS is our savior. Wait....

Oh ya, god will curse the earth....oh well, after he changed his mind.


Malachi 4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake.

Will the earth last forever?:

Deuteronomy 4:40
That thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for ever.

Psalm 102:25-26
The earth and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish.

Does god lie?:

2 Samuel 7:28
Thou art that God, and thy words be true.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

and etc...

 

[ShanandBoc]

But you had sex before you were married?

Yeah but that's OK because she wasn't a fully baptised member of the organisation and has 'fully repented'

They believe that death, sickness, famine, floods, suffering - everything bad is 'man made' because we, as humans, 'earned it' because Adam and Eve committed the original sin

They also believe that death is just a state of unconcious non existence - no heaven, no hell, no spirits - just ... nothing

BUT - if we all convert to their way of thinking (or perhaps if we're just lucky and God lets us off anyway, against JW expectations), well - THEN we can look forward Armageddon and thenceforth to either forming Christ's 'Government' as one of the 144000 in Heaven or becoming one of the 'other sheep' here on a perfect Earth.

Personally - given the choice between complete oblivion and eternal life surrounded by Jehova's Witnesses, I know which I'd choose

I was studying again when i became pregnant so i wasnt actually a practicing witness. And even if i was baptised, your right as long as i repented and did the right thing it would be acceptable, whats wrong with forgiveness?

And who elses fault are the above world problems, are you saying that global warming isnt man made? That sickness from all the chemicals etc we put in our food isnt man made. Sure some illness is due to age, but this is because we are imperfect humans, and we age and die. Things have been allowed to contunue as they are to prove that humnas without Gods guidance and rule, fail. Not that we all individually earnt it, but gods authority was challenged back in the garden of eden and time was needed to show that we cant govern ourselves and we dont know whats best.

We do believe in heaven, but not that its where you go when you die. The bible states that the dead are concious of nothing at all Ecclesiasties 9:5, 10 the dead are simply sleeping.

And of course its not just witnesses that will be given a chance of life in paradise, also those who have never had the chance to come to an accurate knowledge of his purpose, god is the final judge as he sees peoples hearts, and the bible says there is going to be a ressurection also of judgement for those who never had the chance, and they will be given the chance to learn and then make up their own minds.

All you have said in regards to the the earthly paradise and the 144 000 etc is all from the bible, not some thing witnesses have just made up!

The more you read and understand the more logical it is, the more it gives answers as to why we die, why the world is like it is, this isnt the way things were meant to be.

 

[LandN]

This is all too confusing for me

I would rather give my daughter a life !!! than let her die for what believing in a book and god, so i know someone who has what would be called as "dirty blood" what will happen to her then when she dies?

Now what happens to all us people who dont believe? will we all go to hell? when we die.

Just i dont understand, when i grew up i thought religions were always the nice things, but when you look at history of nuns, wars about religion, abuse going on in churches, it puzzles me it really does.

 

[November1984]

All you have said in regards to the the earthly paradise and the 144 000 etc is all from the bible, not some thing witnesses have just made up!

The more you read and understand the more logical it is, the more it gives answers as to why we die, why the world is like it is, this isnt the way things were meant to be.

1 Thess 4:17:

We the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord...


If there are 144,000 and the others have a paradise on earth (or the air) why this Did Paul say there was only one hope?
Isn't that two hopes (paradise, heavens)?

We do believe in heaven, but not that its where you go when you die. The bible states that the dead are concious of nothing at all Ecclesiasties 9:5, 10 the dead are simply sleeping.

1 Peter 4:6


For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[ShanandBoc]

I find religion very contradicting and more often than not causes trouble/arguments.. WARS!
I refuse to open my door to JWs due to them ramming their beliefs in my face when I really didn't need it.

Here's some:
You cant just pick out random scriptures and say 'look it contradicts itself'???

You have to study surrounding verses, look to all other parts of the bible to see the meaning....ill illustrate this by answering the below

God is our only savior, wait - JESUS is our savior. Wait....
But the first one Jesus through God is our only saviour......that only by Jesus' sacrafice that we can be saved. But ulimately God is the one responsible for this as he sent Jesus to earth. Remeber that Jesus and God are reffered to as 'one' that they are united.



Oh ya, god will curse the earth....oh well, after he changed his mind.


Malachi 4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake.
This is talking of Noahs flood....If you actually read on to Genesis 9:11 God elaborates on this " neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of the flood, neither shall there be anymore a flood to destroy the earth" so he was refering to never use a global flood to do this same as in Genesis 8:21 as this was still the account of the flood.

If you go on to read verses 12 - 16 of chapter 11, God says that he will use a sign as a token of this covnant - a bow in the clouds in the sky, a rainbow after rain and verse 15 basically repeats what verse 11 says


Will the earth last forever?:

Deuteronomy 4:40
That thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for ever.

Psalm 102:25-26
The earth and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish.
Read Isaiah 51:6, it has to be symbolic, why? How do we know this? Well note that it also says “ The heavens shall vanish away like smoke” Which logically isn’t going to happen is it

Psalms 104:5 – “ Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever”

Ecclesiasties 1: 4 – “ One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever

A new heavens and new earth clearly isn’t a literal new heavens or earth., why would God destroy or be made to perish heaven and earth only to rebuild.?? The new heavens stands for a new government ruiling over the earth, God, Jesus as king and the 144, 000 and the new earth stands for a new society of faithful , obedient humans living on a cleaned paradise earth after God steps in at Armageddon.



Does god lie?:

2 Samuel 7:28
Thou art that God, and thy words be true.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Jehovah God allows “an operation of error” to go to persons who prefer falsehood “that they may get to believing the lie” rather than the good news about Jesus Christ. Not that God himself actually lied, read the few verses prior to this.(2Th 2:9-12)






and etc...

My answers in pink....

 

[ShanandBoc]

All you have said in regards to the the earthly paradise and the 144 000 etc is all from the bible, not some thing witnesses have just made up!

The more you read and understand the more logical it is, the more it gives answers as to why we die, why the world is like it is, this isnt the way things were meant to be.

1 Thess 4:17:

We the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord...
This is speaking of those who have the heavenly hope. Thus, at the time that they finish their earthly course faithfully in death, the remaining ones who have the invitation (144,000) are immediately resurrected to join their fellow members of the bride class in heaven. They do not “fall asleep in death” in the sense of waiting in a long sleep, as did the apostles but, on dying, are “changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,



If there are 144,000 and the others have a paradise on earth (or the air) why this Did Paul say there was only one hope?
Isn't that two hopes (paradise, heavens)?
There is only one hope, of eternal life One hope as in both those on earth and in heaven will enjoy everlasting life. So we all have the one hope of everlasting life - the bible clearly speaks of the rightouess living forever on a paradise earth

We do believe in heaven, but not that its where you go when you die. The bible states that the dead are concious of nothing at all Ecclesiasties 9:5, 10 the dead are simply sleeping.

1 Peter 4:6


For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

They are striving, with God’s help, to cleanse themselves of “every defilement of flesh and spirit,” and God views and judges them, not according to what they are in the flesh, as man often does, but according to what they are spiritually, us as a person our invisible qualities see also 1Co 4:3-5; 2Co 5:16,17; 7:1


This is so because those hearing Christ were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ before hearing but would begin to ‘live’ spiritually because of faith in the good news.—Eph 2:1; compare Mt 8:22; 1Ti 5:6.

 

[November1984]

You cant just pick out random scriptures and say 'look it contradicts itself'???

You have to study surrounding verses, look to all other parts of the bible to see the meaning....ill illustrate this by answering the below

Yes I can just like JWs (or any religious person) picks out pieces that corresponds to their beliefs.

But the first one Jesus through God is our only saviour......that only by Jesus' sacrafice that we can be saved. But ulimately God is the one responsible for this as he sent Jesus to earth. Remeber that Jesus and God are reffered to as 'one' that they are united.

Okay so that's why Christ sits on the right hand of God. Orrrr why Jesus/Christ/etc is the only mediator between God and men. Sounds like a bad case of multiple personality disorder to me.

This is talking of Noahs flood....If you actually read on to Genesis 9:11 God elaborates on this " neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of the flood, neither shall there be anymore a flood to destroy the earth" so he was refering to never use a global flood to do this same as in Genesis 8:21 as this was still the account of the flood.

If you go on to read verses 12 - 16 of chapter 11, God says that he will use a sign as a token of this covnant - a bow in the clouds in the sky, a rainbow after rain and verse 15 basically repeats what verse 11 says

It makes as much sense as when referring to Noah's ark the bible states it was 450 ft long (three hundred cubits) and carried two of every animal.

Read Isaiah 51:6, it has to be symbolic, why? How do we know this? Well note that it also says “ The heavens shall vanish away like smoke” Which logically isn’t going to happen is it

Psalms 104:5 – “ Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever”

Ecclesiasties 1: 4 – “ One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever

A new heavens and new earth clearly isn’t a literal new heavens or earth., why would God destroy or be made to perish heaven and earth only to rebuild.?? The new heavens stands for a new government ruiling over the earth, God, Jesus as king and the 144, 000 and the new earth stands for a new society of faithful , obedient humans living on a cleaned paradise earth after God steps in at Armageddon.

If you don't take one thing literal why do you take the magical number of 144,000 literately?

Jehovah God allows “an operation of error” to go to persons who prefer falsehood “that they may get to believing the lie” rather than the good news about Jesus Christ. Not that God himself actually lied, read the few verses prior to this.(2Th 2:9-12)

He lies by proxy by sending lying prophets, spirits to deceive.

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

The bit about peace on earth

The lords prayer has it in it. I just never really thought about it tbh, just mindlessless recited it in school

" Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come thy will be done as it is in heaven"

Will be done as it is in heaven. Why would it say that if we all went to heaven?

I have sex before marriage and I don't really care

I just think the bible has a lot of good morals in it that we could all live our lives by

Like " Love thy neigbour"
" He without sin cast the first stone"
" Thy shall not steal"
"Thy shall not killl"

If everyone lived by these morals and more the world would be a better place. I don't know what I beleive but reading the bible sure explains alot. And I find comfort in it
xx

 

[ShanandBoc]

This is all too confusing for me

I would rather give my daughter a life !!! than let her die for what believing in a book and god, so i know someone who has what would be called as "dirty blood" what will happen to her then when she dies?

Now what happens to all us people who dont believe? will we all go to hell? when we die.
my post previous to yours answered this. Its not a matter of not believing, its a matter of whether you have come to an accurate knowledge of the truth and then ignored it. If you dont have an accurate knowledge then of course you wont believe And hell or hades translated just means "common grave' not a literal place of eternal torment


Just i dont understand, when i grew up i thought religions were always the nice things, but when you look at history of nuns, wars about religion, abuse going on in churches, it puzzles me it really does.

Religions that dont follow the bible and Gods laws are the problem. The things you mentioned above are not Gods fault, but humans

 

[November1984]

Religions that dont follow the bible and Gods laws are the problem. The things you mentioned above are not Gods fault, but humans

You know all the violence that happens in the bible on God's orders right? God doesn't also approve of homosexuality:

Romans:

1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


soooo you have people following causing all kinds of problems for these people. Yes, it is a fact homosexuality is not tolerated by 'god' among other things. Please explain how that isn't god's fault? Isn't hating gay people going along w/the bibles word?

The watchtower even states masturbation can lead to homosexuality (why one shouldn't do it).

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

Oooh I didnt know paganism is so frowned upon within the bible. I follow alot of pagen ways. Why is it so frowned upon?

I am not fussed over what the bible says about Christmas. It will still be the day here, Its great to get all the family together, The bible contradicts itself all the way through anyway (in my opinion)

It may seem like it contradicts itself if you dont have a thorough knowledge of it and you havent studied it in its entirety, but it actually doesnt at all, its very much harmonious all the way through....its simply lack of knowledge of the bible that brings you to that conclusion. You cant just pick out a scripture here and then one there and go 'oh look they contradict eachother'. There is alot of info in there!

And i agree theres nothing wrong with getting the family together, at xmas time or any other time for that matter....should be done all year round

Re - Paganisim, the bible clearly warns against astrology, witchcraft, fortune telling as its demonic influences that are behind these practices and its false worship of many gods, where as the bible says that that worship belongs to one true God only - our creator. The pagan usually has a belief in many gods

Paganisim is anything that involves an act, practice or ceremony which is not Christain.

Its basically in direct contrast with everything the bible stands for.

oh well, I do spells but I dont believe in hell either so I dont worry about going there lol.

How do christians feel about other religions such as Hindu? or muslim extremists?

 

[Aidan's Mummy]

I'm not sure how they feel. They are just accpeting. I have never heard any christian slate anyone

The only thing I do hate is how they don't beleive in homosexuals etc. Which is probably why I would never convert as I don't agree with predujice about someones sexuality. I can see that turing into a very interseting topic on a bible study
xx

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

The reason I ask is because the bible is against wicca etc, how does it feel about hindism as dont they worship a different "God"??

Does this mean that everyone who follows a different religion or life will be punished? I think not.

I just dont understand how some of the places that are meant to be the most sacred and things on earth are so war torn.

 

[ShanandBoc]

You cant just pick out random scriptures and say 'look it contradicts itself'???

You have to study surrounding verses, look to all other parts of the bible to see the meaning....ill illustrate this by answering the below

Yes I can just like JWs (or any religious person) picks out pieces that corresponds to their beliefs.
No i can quote multiple scriptures or all on the same subject if you like, thats not picking out ones to correspond to anything other than what the bible says

But the first one Jesus through God is our only saviour......that only by Jesus' sacrafice that we can be saved. But ulimately God is the one responsible for this as he sent Jesus to earth. Remeber that Jesus and God are reffered to as 'one' that they are united.

Okay so that's why Christ sits on the right hand of God. Orrrr why Jesus/Christ/etc is the only mediator between God and men. Sounds like a bad case of multiple personality disorder to me.
That makes no sense. God is the father, Jesus is his son? Christ sits on the right hand of God etc, yes, they are two seperate beings.

This is talking of Noahs flood....If you actually read on to Genesis 9:11 God elaborates on this " neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of the flood, neither shall there be anymore a flood to destroy the earth" so he was refering to never use a global flood to do this same as in Genesis 8:21 as this was still the account of the flood.

If you go on to read verses 12 - 16 of chapter 11, God says that he will use a sign as a token of this covnant - a bow in the clouds in the sky, a rainbow after rain and verse 15 basically repeats what verse 11 says

It makes as much sense as when referring to Noah's ark the bible states it was 450 ft long (three hundred cubits) and carried two of every animal.
there were several levels so that may have been enough room or Could it be a possibility that babies were taken not full grown animals???

Read Isaiah 51:6, it has to be symbolic, why? How do we know this? Well note that it also says “ The heavens shall vanish away like smoke” Which logically isn’t going to happen is it

Psalms 104:5 – “ Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever”

Ecclesiasties 1: 4 – “ One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever

A new heavens and new earth clearly isn’t a literal new heavens or earth., why would God destroy or be made to perish heaven and earth only to rebuild.?? The new heavens stands for a new government ruiling over the earth, God, Jesus as king and the 144, 000 and the new earth stands for a new society of faithful , obedient humans living on a cleaned paradise earth after God steps in at Armageddon.

If you don't take one thing literal why do you take the magical number of 144,000 literately?
The great crowd which no man is able to number is also mentioned in Revelation as coming through the great tribulation, why name a specific number of 144,000 and then go on to speak of a great crowd that no man was able to number (Rev 7:9) if 144,000wasn’t a literal number?

Jehovah God allows “an operation of error” to go to persons who prefer falsehood “that they may get to believing the lie” rather than the good news about Jesus Christ. Not that God himself actually lied, read the few verses prior to this.(2Th 2:9-12)

He lies by proxy by sending lying prophets, spirits to deceive.

Im tired and going to bed, but im happy to answer anymore of these when im next online.

 

[ShanandBoc]

Oooh I didnt know paganism is so frowned upon within the bible. I follow alot of pagen ways. Why is it so frowned upon?

I am not fussed over what the bible says about Christmas. It will still be the day here, Its great to get all the family together, The bible contradicts itself all the way through anyway (in my opinion)

It may seem like it contradicts itself if you dont have a thorough knowledge of it and you havent studied it in its entirety, but it actually doesnt at all, its very much harmonious all the way through....its simply lack of knowledge of the bible that brings you to that conclusion. You cant just pick out a scripture here and then one there and go 'oh look they contradict eachother'. There is alot of info in there!

And i agree theres nothing wrong with getting the family together, at xmas time or any other time for that matter....should be done all year round

Re - Paganisim, the bible clearly warns against astrology, witchcraft, fortune telling as its demonic influences that are behind these practices and its false worship of many gods, where as the bible says that that worship belongs to one true God only - our creator. The pagan usually has a belief in many gods

Paganisim is anything that involves an act, practice or ceremony which is not Christain.

Its basically in direct contrast with everything the bible stands for.

oh well, I do spells but I dont believe in hell either so I dont worry about going there lol.

How do christians feel about other religions such as Hindu? or muslim extremists?

Its black and white in the bible, whats acceptable and whats not, so these religions arent in harmony with the bible no, i dont think they try to be do they?

 

[ShanandBoc]

Religions that dont follow the bible and Gods laws are the problem. The things you mentioned above are not Gods fault, but humans

You know all the violence that happens in the bible on God's orders right? God doesn't also approve of homosexuality:

Romans:

1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


soooo you have people following causing all kinds of problems for these people. Yes, it is a fact homosexuality is not tolerated by 'god' among other things. Please explain how that isn't god's fault? Isn't hating gay people going along w/the bibles word?

The watchtower even states masturbation can lead to homosexuality (why one shouldn't do it).

If people practice homosexuality, thats not Gods fault but no he doesnt approve of it as its not the natural state of a man and a woman

You dont hate a person if they're gay etc, neither does God, he hates the act and doesnt approve of it, thats very different to hating someone. Whats hated is what they do, not them as a person.

Violence instigated in the bible is not violence for the sake of violence, its to destroy wickedness, and as God he is within his right to use that power.