Jehovah's Witnesses

[madasa]

Remeber also that there was a time not so long ago, that people believed the world was flat, it was a common belief. As we had no planes, or space travel then, most people didnt know any better

Yet the bible had always stated that the earth was 'sphere' and a 'circle'

I don't recall anything in the bible referring to the shape of the world... But I believe you, you're better read than me!

Interestingly, much of what is scientifically correct in the bible would gave gone against the common beliefs of the time in which it was written! Thus is either proof that it is from a divine source.... Or it has been altered by man over the centuries....

 

[ShanandBoc]

I certainly dont think science is all fictional at all, thats deffinately not what i think?? where have i said that? I was just pointing out that there is faith involved there too.

Religion and the bible isnt all about faith. The bible is full of historical facts, places, events, people, ancestory lines etc, and i pointed out what is in there about the process and steps where it explains the creation of the earth and humans as we know it is scientifically correct.

I was more referring to things i mentioned in my above post that science cant really 'prove' like that the universe in infininte, the sun etc, not things here on the earth that are much more reliable conclusions as we can see them and research them properly. I never ever said it was wrong or fictional tho.

Also with the bible there is logic and reasoning in the mix too, its not about blind faith x

 

[ShanandBoc]

Remeber also that there was a time not so long ago, that people believed the world was flat, it was a common belief. As we had no planes, or space travel then, most people didnt know any better

Yet the bible had always stated that the earth was 'sphere' and a 'circle'

I don't recall anything in the bible referring to the shape of the world... But I believe you, you're better read than me!

Interestingly, much of what is scientifically correct in the bible would gave gone against the common beliefs of the time in which it was written! Thus is either proof that it is from a divine source.... Or it has been altered by man over the centuries....

Ill quote the scripture for you here you go

Isaiah 40:22 - " He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, that stretcheth out the heavens a curtain and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" King James version.

Im sure there is another scripture somewhere too, i just have to find it lol.

And dont forget there are original bible scrolls in museums in their original languages obviously, that have been compared to modern day translations of the bible as being true translations of the original.

There are of course many bibles from or before that time of belief in a flat earth that are still around too

 

[madasa]

I hadn't thought of that (scrolls in museums). . Conspiracy theory alert: how do we know some have not been lost... Or intentionally destroyed? Omitting parts would impact the meaning of the whole...

Thanks for the scripture reference! One thing I like about arguing with jws us they always gave a reference to back up what they say!

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

How do we know the bible isnt just a fable? How did people first realise this was a holy book? x

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

sorry, I didnt mean the science thing in a nasty way. I just meant there seems to be alot of "science can not answer but the bible can" sort of thing but yet the bible by itself is not solid proof. This is what I meant, its still confusing, sorry x it was by absolutely no means a dig xx

 

[Gonnabeamomma]

So, what do you think this thread would look like if the question had been about telephone solicitors??? Ha, ha, ha!

 

[Serene123]

So, what do you think this thread would look like if the question had been about telephone solicitors??? Ha, ha, ha!

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

But then if god created all that then someone had to have created him and thats even more mind blowing! If you are going to say that it happening as a result of the big bang is too far fetched then you have to apply the same logic to God then and who/what created him iykwim. Who gave him all his wisdom and knowledge to create everything? Too mind blowing for me I am a scientific person, I like science and Im good at science. I have studied parts of evolution and I believe we evolved.

Like I have said before, some parts of religion are open to interpretation imo. Some things cannot be explained. But I suppose thats why it is called having faith and religion and not just called fact

Its a good point but God just is, has always existed. Hard to comprehend i know, But your saying that if God exists, that he had to have been created, yet you believe Everything else has come to be out of nowhere?

Science can only tell us so much, some of it may be wrong, so there is an element of faith there too right??....I guess there are some things that are beyond us to understand. But When science tells us that the universe is infinite, we believe that, yet none have us have ever seen it for ourselves or can even comprehend such a thing. Or they tell us how hot the surface of the sun is? We cant imagine that kind of heat, and how do we really know? after all its only human evaluation that comes to any scientific conclusion. The bible is scientifically accurate and historically accurate and contains wisdom far beyond what humans could dream up.

I have lots of info on how we couldnt have evolved from apes, which i will post up when i have more time. There are many holes, unexplainable conclusions and not enough evidence to back up the evolution theory, too may 'we dont knows'.

Our planet and everything on it is very tiny compared to The powerful being that is God, he is not a material thing or a person that we can see , he is a powerful spirit being,a force, he has always just been

Essentially what your saying tho is everything had to be created by saying God had to be created, yet that goes against the whole theory of evolution.

Im not trying to argue, just giving my point of view and thanks for your post

Thats not what I said.. I said if you were going to apply the logic of everything is too intricate to have happened merely by chance then wouldnt you have to apply the same logic to Gods existance? That was my point (well what I meant ). I am a catholic, but I dont have to see everything in the bible as everyone else does.

When I was at school we had a wonderful priest. Some liked him, some didnt. One of the things he told me is that religion can mean different things to different people. God can be what you need him to be, when you need it iykwim. Down, sad, angry, if youve sinned and are repentful and so on. A lot of it is open to interpretation, you cant say science has a lot of dont knows when comparing it to religion. Religion doesnt have to be 'proven' to be valid -again that is why it is called a belief and having faith. I wouldnt want everything in the bible to make complete sense, I wouldnt want God to be explained, I like it how it is. The not knowing but knowing he's there iykwim. We dont have to validate everything in the bible. That was what I was saying with the applying logic to creation. You cant really do that. there will be holes in every theory put forward

I hope that makes sense

 

[Blue_bumpkin]

Remeber also that there was a time not so long ago, that people believed the world was flat, it was a common belief. As we had no planes, or space travel then, most people didnt know any better

Yet the bible had always stated that the earth was 'sphere' and a 'circle'

I don't recall anything in the bible referring to the shape of the world... But I believe you, you're better read than me!

Interestingly, much of what is scientifically correct in the bible would gave gone against the common beliefs of the time in which it was written! Thus is either proof that it is from a divine source.... Or it has been altered by man over the centuries....

Ill quote the scripture for you here you go

Isaiah 40:22 - " He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, that stretcheth out the heavens a curtain and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" King James version.

Im sure there is another scripture somewhere too, i just have to find it lol.

And dont forget there are original bible scrolls in museums in their original languages obviously, that have been compared to modern day translations of the bible as being true translations of the original.

There are of course many bibles from or before that time of belief in a flat earth that are still around too

Just to be a pain in the a$$ but a circle is different to a sphere - it says circle but circles are 2 dimensional so that doesnt really prove anything

 

[ShanandBoc]

The Bible actually teaches a spherical shape for the earth. The hebrew word for circle 'chugh' can also mean sphere.

It should be noted however that the Hebrews had no separate word for a three-dimensional circle ie a "sphere"** thus the word covered a circle both in its two AND three dimensional sense. Translators therefore have not taken any liberties translating Isaiah 40 as "sphere" or "globe".


Also, in Luke 17:34–36 Christ's Second Coming is portrayed as occurring while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities — which means a rotating earth with day and night at the same time.

In regard to the shape of the earth, the point of these verses is this: they speak of day (verse 31) and night (verse 34) as occurring simultaneously. The activities are listed in the context of that global event, the rapture, which Paul describes as occurring in the "twinkling of an eye" (I Corinthians 15:52). The simplest explanation for this simultaneity of daylight and night is if the earth were spheroidal in shape.

Proverbs 8:27 also describes it as a compass, which can also refer to a sphere, to inclose on all sides; to surround; to encircle;

Note the bible always stated that the earth hangs upon nothing (Job 26:7) which at the time of belief that the earth was flat, it was also believed that the earth didnt hang upon nothing. The bible correctly noted that the earth has no visable support, a fact that is in harmony with the more recently understood laws of gravity and motion.

I have to go now but will post much information on proof that the bible being a holy book and not just a fable, as well as proof of its historical, archelogical accuracies and its prophecies.

In regards to the priest and his comments, religion doesnt necessarily have anything to do with the bible tho does it? belief and faith of many religions, has nothing to do with the bible at all. Thre can be only one truth and also the bible clearly describes who God is, his feelings, his qualities, his requirements of us and that we are made in his image, so all our good qualities love, justice, peace, etc come from him, are a reflection of his qualities.n Its clear on what and who he should mean to us

And i wasnt speaking of science having a lot of dont knows (which admittedly it does) but was speaking of the theory of evolution, which in many areas, science actually isnt in harmony with at all.

 

[ShanandBoc]

sorry, I didnt mean the science thing in a nasty way. I just meant there seems to be alot of "science can not answer but the bible can" sort of thing but yet the bible by itself is not solid proof. This is what I meant, its still confusing, sorry x it was by absolutely no means a dig xx

I never said that it was, hence why i mentioned its proven scientific accuracy amoungst other things x

Science can prove alot i agree, and it has, but has found far more evidence to back up the creation theory other than the evolutionary one.

 

[Dragonfly]

This is one of them debates that no one is ever going to win. This is why I never get involved in it as I dont know anything about the bible because its not my thing but good for anyone who does believe, whatever floats their boat as we are all different and the more that excepted everyone was different and had different beliefs the nicer the world would be (I mean good beliefs not wacko ones that involve killing people that actually have nothing to do with religion but man has turned it into that).

 

[ShanandBoc]

Its not about trying to win anything, its about presenting the facts and then everyone makes their own informed decision.

And i agree dragonfly so many 'religions' have nothing to do with the bible at all.

Im glad this has been such a friendly debate, with such difference of opinions this would usually qualify as one of BnB's top 5 thread topics that get closed haha x

 

[Midnight_Fairy]

If the bible has so many solid facts or proof then why do so many people not believe? People must believe their own religions or not believe a religion for a reason?

 

[Dragonfly]

Its not about trying to win anything, its about presenting the facts and then everyone makes their own informed decision.

And i agree dragonfly so many 'religions' have nothing to do with the bible at all.

Im glad this has been such a friendly debate, with such difference of opinions this would usually qualify as one of BnB's top 5 thread topics that get closed haha x

No I didnt mean that, I wasnt even reading what you where all saying as it baffles me its not an argument I know its a discussion. But no point on me saying I dont believe and you saying you do we wont get anywhere its quite a personal thing to I always thought, I do believe in stuff others dont and despite my family thinking I am the devil and my son is the devils spawn for not introduce religion to him when he was born even though standing in church dosnt make you any more of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car,. And they dont do either,. I just dont have it in my life.

 

[Cariad_bach]

Its not about trying to win anything, its about presenting the facts and then everyone makes their own informed decision.

And i agree dragonfly so many 'religions' have nothing to do with the bible at all.

Im glad this has been such a friendly debate, with such difference of opinions this would usually qualify as one of BnB's top 5 thread topics that get closed haha x

No I didnt mean that, I wasnt even reading what you where all saying as it baffles me its not an argument I know its a discussion. But no point on me saying I dont believe and you saying you do we wont get anywhere its quite a personal thing to I always thought, I do believe in stuff others dont and despite my family thinking I am the devil and my son is the devils spawn for not introduce religion to him when he was born even though standing in church dosnt make you any more of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car,. And they dont do either,. I just dont have it in my life.

I keep seeing that page on facebook .. makes me giggle everytime


Ive loved this debate/discusion and have found myself telling numerous people about it .... ShanandBoc youve given me alot to think about this threads been a real eye opener xxx

 

[ShanandBoc]

Same could be said of evolution. Alot of people believe what their religion teaches due to cultural background etc, without looking into it any deeper and religions that do confess to follow the bible, alot of the time actually dont at all and they show this by their works and their teachings, that they are not in harmony with the bible. The bible speaks of a empire of 'false religion' that would be very prevelant during the last days of this system.

I think the main thing is lack of knowledge of the bible. Secondly, i think wars etc in the name of 'religion' have put people off even looking into the bible, even those these 'religions' are apparently based on the bible with their beliefs and go against all morals and standards that the bible teaches.

Another thing i believe that if there is a God, that means we are accountable to him and alot of people just want to make up their own rules and do their own thing, its that whole air of rebellion that started with Satan and Adam and Eve IYKWIM. Dont forget that the bible teaches that Satan is trying to mislead everybody and his influence is everywhere, which explains why there is so much evil in the world, so he is behind it as well, trying to turn humans against God.

Just my view on your question

This was in reply to emzymathruby's last post oopsy moving too fast lol.

 

[ShanandBoc]

Its not about trying to win anything, its about presenting the facts and then everyone makes their own informed decision.

And i agree dragonfly so many 'religions' have nothing to do with the bible at all.

Im glad this has been such a friendly debate, with such difference of opinions this would usually qualify as one of BnB's top 5 thread topics that get closed haha x

No I didnt mean that, I wasnt even reading what you where all saying as it baffles me its not an argument I know its a discussion. But no point on me saying I dont believe and you saying you do we wont get anywhere its quite a personal thing to I always thought, I do believe in stuff others dont and despite my family thinking I am the devil and my son is the devils spawn for not introduce religion to him when he was born even though standing in church dosnt make you any more of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car,. And they dont do either,. I just dont have it in my life.

very true, alot of people go to church but that doesnt make them a christain, thats where the buck stops for them.

Hence what i explained in my last post about people confessing to follow the bible, when they dont.

 

[Dragonfly]

you know a lot though your not just saying your religious and leaving it at that like everyone i know you have something to back it up with you are involved, your opinion is not pressed on others and I do like to see that as I can see your passionate about it. I dont like people shouting at me I am going to burn in hell though but I have laughed so hard at that in the past thats way to involved, I seen a man crying and screaming once in the street saying we where all going to hell. I find that behaviour strange,.