Latest CC/CIO Study? What's everyones thoughts?

[mememoo]

Like many people have said its the individuals choose. Maybe people will feel more comfortable trying one of the techniques now the report is out.

I've raised both my daughters the same way, put down awake for sleep from a matter of days, established a routine from a few weeks old, encouraged independent playing, encouraged social interaction with family and friends and taught them how to self settle. The last dropped her early morning 5.30am feed at 5 months and now sleeps 7pm-7am. At different stages of development she would cry when I put her down and I used pick up/ put down under 6 months, 7-8 months reassurance with my hand on her, telling her its sleeptime. She's not cried at bedtime at all for 2 months now I have a confident, happy and social 9 year old and a 10 month old who goes to sleep for 12 hrs a night without crying, enjoys naptime, has never has separation anxiety and loves being held and spoken too by everyone and never cries. Wakes up happy, goes to sleep happy so in my opinion sleep training has its advantages.

 

[Mrsmitch80]

I absolutely believe in sleep training, I would have said I disagreed had I not had been through sleep problems with my first. I found I could always tell the difference between an upset cry ie in pain, hungry etc or just a "I don't know what to do with myself" cry, I used cc.

My daughter is 3 now and confident and certainly none the worse for it.

I honestly don't see how periods of controlled crying can be seen to have an impact on a persons future relationships. Really?! How can they rule out it being one of the hundreds of thousands of other experiences in that person's life.

As others have said its personal choice and we all know what's best for our own child x

 

[youngmommy2]

I *personally* and physically could never do cry it out with my child. I just can't do it. I feel ill when I hear him cry and I would rather be punched in the face.

 

[Melissa_M]

I like this!!!

It's refreshing to see something in here that says "hey, you know that little, seemingly insignificant parenting choice you made the other day....it's NOT going to irreversibly screw up your child forever...yay!"

 

[pinklightbulb]

I have done CC and will again. Eamon was a pitiful sleeper until I used it, and from 5 months he self-settled. Never had any toddler sleep issues and his bond to me is fine. As soon as Liam hits 4 months, CC it will be again as he is no better than Eamon was.

 

[flippityflop]

I honestly don't see how periods of controlled crying can be seen to have an impact on a persons future relationships. Really?! How can they rule out it being one of the hundreds of thousands of other experiences in that person's life.

As others have said its personal choice and we all know what's best for our own child x

^^ This. I fail to see how 3 nights of, in total, 1 hrs 12minutes of crying will inevitably mess my child up. A lady I know told me her 12 year old nephew has anxiety issues because of controlled crying (although it could have been extinction CIO for all I know.) I don't know those circumstances but I would like to know exactly how they can tell that. Having discussed this with many, many people including people who had cC done on them when thy were babies (30+ yrs ago) I don't know anyone who has any kind of issues.

 

[honey08]

i think the mother know wether its best for her baby , if ur babys over a certain age/isnt hungry/wet/poorly i think CC is the right thing to do x

but its a personal choice for every1 and a very hard one at tht x

 

[pinklightbulb]

I honestly don't see how periods of controlled crying can be seen to have an impact on a persons future relationships. Really?! How can they rule out it being one of the hundreds of thousands of other experiences in that person's life.

As others have said its personal choice and we all know what's best for our own child x

^^ This. I fail to see how 3 nights of, in total, 1 hrs 12minutes of crying will inevitably mess my child up. A lady I know told me her 12 year old nephew has anxiety issues because of controlled crying (although it could have been extinction CIO for all I know.) I don't know those circumstances but I would like to know exactly how they can tell that. Having discussed this with many, many people including people who had cC done on them when thy were babies (30+ yrs ago) I don't know anyone who has any kind of issues.

 

[honey08]

i waited till 6mth , my son wudnt sleep in his cot but in my bed, i cudnt turn all night he'd wake up at the slightest noise, 4nights in his own room he cried first time for 20min ... went up 3times, 2night just 12min, 3rd night fell asleep , 4th night 12min , and now when i put him dwn he just goes2sleep 11hr !

 

[StranjeGirl]

I honestly don't see how periods of controlled crying can be seen to have an impact on a persons future relationships. Really?! How can they rule out it being one of the hundreds of thousands of other experiences in that person's life.

As others have said its personal choice and we all know what's best for our own child x

^^ This. I fail to see how 3 nights of, in total, 1 hrs 12minutes of crying will inevitably mess my child up. A lady I know told me her 12 year old nephew has anxiety issues because of controlled crying (although it could have been extinction CIO for all I know.) I don't know those circumstances but I would like to know exactly how they can tell that. Having discussed this with many, many people including people who had cC done on them when thy were babies (30+ yrs ago) I don't know anyone who has any kind of issues.

I honestly feel people want to find something to blame...and why not blame CC that your dr told you to do rather than blame yourself! I don't think it would be possible to pinpoint that cc causes anxiety issues. They would have to evaluate every detail of that person's childhood and that would be impossible to do. I'm sure there are neglectful parents who used CC and their kids are screwed up because they are neglectful parents in general. My guess is that most neglectful parent will use CIO as they don't want to deal with the child, while some non-neglectful parents will use CIO because it is a last resort and they give their child tons of attention in general. I'm sure the latter will turn out just fine.

 

[ByHisGrace]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...left-to-cry-feel-stressed-research-finds.html

Different study from May -
"Using babies aged four to ten months, her team monitored the levels of hormone cortisol as they were left to fall asleep without comfort from a carer. Researchers measured the length of time they cried over successive nights, as their mothers waited in a nearby room.
By the third night of the study, infants were found to have cried for a shorter period of time before falling asleep.
But the study, published in the journal Early Human Development, found the levels of cortisol in their saliva remained high.
...
The study found: "On the third day of the program, results showed that infants' physiological and behavioral responses were dissociated. They no longer expressed behavioral distress during the sleep transition but their cortisol levels were elevated."
Wendy Middlemiss told the Daily Mail: “Although the infants exhibited no behavioural cue that they were experiencing distress at the transition to sleep, they continued to experience high levels of physiological distress, as reflected in their cortisol scores.
“Overall, outward displays of internal stress were extinguished by sleep training.
“However, given the continued presence of distress, infants were not learning how to internally manage their experiences of stress and discomfort.”"

https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful

I could never do cio or probably even cc. Obviously people have to make their own choices, but I see no reason to stand outside their door feeling utterly sick and crying myself as they wail when I could make them stop and feel better.

They are babies, not evil manipulators. All they want is mama and snuggles and warm milk. Once they hit toddlerhood and understand what's going on, that's the time to start getting serious about bedtime.

Obviously I'm outnumbered on this thread, but that's my thought, as requested.

 

[Pielette]

Hmm. I have a few thoughts on this.

I have always had an attitude of never say never on sleep training. I do feel that some babies can get to a point where their sleep is so awful that THEY are suffering. Not the parents, although of course it had a knock-on effect. Most parents who use cc or CIO do it because their child is suffering through lack of sleep. Babies need around 14 hours of sleep a day, at least 12. It has such a negative effect on a baby if they don't get that precious sleep and I understand that sometimes parents have no choice but to try sleep training.

Studies on whether it has a negative effect on a child later in life - I don't know how much of it I believe. There are a multitude of factors determining how children and later adults react to certain situations so I'm not convinced, but I'll happily be proved wrong.

That being said, I wonder if it's totally necessary to get to that point. I believe there is a middle ground between picking up the child every time they cry and can't settle, and cc or CIO. I think a baby should be encouraged to learn to self settle for their own benefit. It is a horrendous experience for both parent and child when you have an older baby or toddler who doesn't know how to fall asleep on their own or transition through the sleep cycles.

I don't think enough importance is placed on encouraging a young baby to settle on their own. Why not? And that involves very little upset in my experience. From when my LO was a young baby I used to sit beside his basket or cot and lay a hand on his chest and stroke his face. It soothed him that I was there and he fell asleep. Then if he stirred in the night he didn't panic because was exactly where he was when he fell asleep, and if he did get upset I would go right to him and reassure him again.

I have a very happy baby who sleeps incredibly well, I now give him a kiss goodnight, put him into his cot awake, he grabs his favourite stuffed elephant and gives me a smile. Within 5 mins he's asleep. He sleeps 11-12 hours at nights and has a 2 hour nap during the day.

I think it takes a bit of perseverance but I think it is worthwhile to encourage them to settle without a prop and at an early age. The older they get the harder it becomes, which is why parents have no choice but to resort to cc or CIO.

 

[Pandora83]

They are babies, not evil manipulators. All they want is mama and snuggles and warm milk. Once they hit toddlerhood and understand what's going on, that's the time to start getting serious about.

I TOTALLY agree with this. I sometimes think we have far too high expectations of babies. They have no concept of what they are doing, they only understand their needs/instincts and know that mummy solves all those problems and that's why we're do important to them. However, I also agree there are grey areas as when babies are waking every 30 mins for weeks on end and no one is getting any sleep including baby it's difficult because baby needs sleep to grow/develop and parents need sleep to be safe! I think one of the problems is that CC or CIO is used without considering other gentler methods first as they are less well known or may be less convenient. I also think if your baby is waking for one or two (or even three) feeds a night then going back to sleep that's pretty normal and doesn't need 'fixing'.

 

[lhancock90]

I wonder how many of them have children?

 

[staralfur]

ByHisGrace - while I'm on the same page as you, not sure about those studies you linked to.

In the first one, was there a control group? Were they comparing cortisol levels to those of babies who were settled otherwise? Because cortisol levels are naturally higher before falling asleep, then drop once sleeping. I think you could say cortisol levels were higher before falling asleep in ANY baby, regardless of how they settle. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible as it's 2:30am.

With the second one, it's mentioned over and over that babies who are left "repeatedly" or "usually" suffer adverse effects. I think even most parents who try CIO would see that it's not working for their child before it got to that point.

 

[Lauki]

I really don't give a flying **** what studies say.

I does not feel right to leave my baby to cry.

It feels right to cuddle her and be there for her, even if it's between 7pm and 7am!

 

[pixiemum]

I am a mother who used the crying it out with my first son who is now 6 and a half years old. It was horrendous i will admit, i would be downstairs making me and my partners tea crying my eyes out, my partner was brilliant support for me, reassuring me it will get better and hes fine. We would make sure he was clean, dry, fed, had a nice cuddle and placed in his cot, he would then shortly proceed to cry, we'd soothe him for a very short time and leave. After a few nights the crying got less and less until he was able to soothe himself to sleep when we put him down for the night. During that time i was other mother and baby boards where i told everyone i was trying this technique etc etc, to which i got told a bad mother and that she felt sorry for my baby. This made me cry even more as i was just trying to do what i thought best for my son at the time to help him with his sleep. I am a good mother, i played/taught and loved my son, and nearly 7 years on he has become a very loving, funny, incredibly intelligent boy who is very popular in his school with plenty of friends, gets top marks in all his little lessons and shows his family such affection. So it can't have done him that much harm right?
I would consider the controlled crying for my 6 week old when he's old enough if his sleep is bad, even though i know i'll be crying, if its whats needed at that time for him to be able to get some sleep in the long run and be able to soothe himself, its a choice i may decide to take, i'm a parent and should have the right to decide whats right for my own children, as long as they are safe and fed and clean.

The studies which show it could effect them in adulthood, lets me realistic, there are hundreds of factors in life towards adulthood that can affect them.

 

[lisa1980]

I have used CC recently with my son.

I did not want to, and I really did try gentle methods first (for months), but we were having HOURS of crying every evening (whilst I rocked him, sang to him, fed him - didn't make any difference), and then wake ups every hour, minimum, all night. His sleep had been getting steadily worse as he got older regardless of what we did. TBH we were at breaking point, and LO was SO tired but unable to get himself back to sleep every time he stirred as I had never given him the chance to learn. I won't bore you with the sob story, but it was horrible enough for me to try CC, something I had been very against before I had a child who just did not sleep.

Anyway, it took 2 nights. He cried for MUCH less time overall than he had cried every other night for months in my arms, and he never got to the hysterical crying as he had every other night either. I honestly now believe that I had been interrupting his attempts to get himself to sleep. He doesn't STTN. It wasn't a magic fix to get 12 hours straight sleep (I didn't expect it to be). He still wakes 2-3 times for a feed or a cuddle and I'm happy for that to continue, but he's much more rested and happier all round now.

I'm not promoting it. It worked well for us, but I understand that's not always the case. As with everything in parenting, YOU have to choose what's best for YOUR family. Saying that, I agree with PPs that I wouldn't have done it when he was very little. If becoming a parent has taught me anything, it's to hesitate before i judge...I never thought I'd be getting less than an hour's broken sleep at a time when my LO was 9 months so it was very easy to judge before.

Just to add, the studies that bang on about cortisol levels confuse me a little. Cortisol is one of many hormones involved in stress response and also involved in regulating metabolism and many other things too but as far as I'm aware there has never been a study able to directly link transiently elevated cortisol levels to long-term (or even short-term) emotional damage. It isn't a linear relationship. As a PP said, cortisol levels vary naturally through the day, after eating etc etc and will be raised ANY time a baby cries for ANY reason. I'm sure my LO's cortisol levels were pretty high during his previous 3 hour screaming marathons, regardless of what I was doing.

I think any study that tries to link complex emotional issues seen in adults to one specific parenting technique in the context of a generally caring upbringing is really clutching at straws. It's too simplistic for me. Long-term neglect will obviously cause problems (I don't think anyone is denying that) but I'd say the VAST majority of people on this forum discussing sleep training are doing so out of desperation and concern for their CHILD above all else. People who show no care or regard for their children generally don't frequent boards about parenting.

 

[chocolala]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...left-to-cry-feel-stressed-research-finds.html

Different study from May -
"Using babies aged four to ten months, her team monitored the levels of hormone cortisol as they were left to fall asleep without comfort from a carer. Researchers measured the length of time they cried over successive nights, as their mothers waited in a nearby room.
By the third night of the study, infants were found to have cried for a shorter period of time before falling asleep.
But the study, published in the journal Early Human Development, found the levels of cortisol in their saliva remained high.
...
The study found: "On the third day of the program, results showed that infants' physiological and behavioral responses were dissociated. They no longer expressed behavioral distress during the sleep transition but their cortisol levels were elevated."
Wendy Middlemiss told the Daily Mail: “Although the infants exhibited no behavioural cue that they were experiencing distress at the transition to sleep, they continued to experience high levels of physiological distress, as reflected in their cortisol scores.
“Overall, outward displays of internal stress were extinguished by sleep training.
“However, given the continued presence of distress, infants were not learning how to internally manage their experiences of stress and discomfort.”"

https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful

I could never do cio or probably even cc. Obviously people have to make their own choices, but I see no reason to stand outside their door feeling utterly sick and crying myself as they wail when I could make them stop and feel better.

They are babies, not evil manipulators. All they want is mama and snuggles and warm milk. Once they hit toddlerhood and understand what's going on, that's the time to start getting serious about bedtime.

Obviously I'm outnumbered on this thread, but that's my thought, as requested.

This.

From what I've read this new study is fairy flawed and pretty small. 31% dropped out, that's quite a high number in what's already a small study

My girl sleeps like shit but training is not something I would do, she always crys for a reason. For instance, recently her sleep has been even worse than normal, turns out she had 2 molars coming through, there were no other signs that she was teething other than disturbed sleep, I could have left her to cry claiming there was nothing wrong, but it turns out there was, I just didn't know it at the time. If I had left her to cry and then discovered the teeth I'd of felt terrible. In my mind a baby crys for a reason.

 

[pixiemum]

Do they always cry for a reason though? Sometimes when my LO wakes in he day, i put his dummy in and hes back to sleep, to me thats not a "real" reason, its a soothe thing and when hes old enough and all he cries for is that dummy/soothe thing then the controlled crying (if nothing else works) may just be a problem solver, as he will be able to soothe himself rather than relying on a dummy to do so, which is a problem that can lasts years giving him very little sleep and very little confidence (if i may say that) in just getting off to sleep himself. Not saying i'm right, but as a parent aswell, its all trial and error and everyone tries different things that works for them, no set way is wrong but it could be wrong for one family where it is right for another.