Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[polaris]

Thomas was a lot older moving to one nap, about 15/16 months, and the transition was quite difficult. But once he was actually firmly established on one nap it really made life so much easier. Much easier to plan activities that didn't clash with nap-time. Also he started sleeping later in the mornings after he dropped to one nap (previously usually awake at 5.30/6). Also when he first moved to one nap he was sleeping for three hours plus!

Shadowy Lady - I always woke Thomas from naps to keep him on schedule, I found that he did sooo much better with a consistent schedule but he was totally unable to stick to a consistent schedule without me keeping him on track by waking him if necessary. I also had to wake him from naps for ages so that he was able to fit two naps into the day, as he wasn't able to cope with just one. I still have to wake him from his nap now so that he will go to bed at a reasonable hour. Clara's naps are only just starting to lengthen and settle down into a regular schedule and I do wake her from naps when necessary too. I have recently started waking her from her morning nap by 11 so that she will be tired enough to take a long nap at about 1.30ish. However in the situation you described I agree with the others that there probably isn't much point in waking her and just try for a cat-nap later.

As for me, we have been doing controlled crying which has been miraculous in helping Clara to self-settle for naps, bedtimes, and night-wakings. However we are still having about a gazillion night wakings. Does anyone have any idea why? I am only feeding her once a night now and she doesn't seem hungry at the other wakings. However I counted and last night she woke up ten times! Five of these were just momentary arousals for 1 or 2 minutes, which I presume is just her way of transitioning sleep cycles. The others were mostly less than ten minutes but one was twenty minutes. She doesn't usually really properly cry when she wakes up, just sort of moany sleep crying. Could it be chronic over-tiredness causing her to wake up so often? She has dropped her third nap over the last few weeks and she is needing a much earlier bedtime. I managed to get her down at 6.35 today but I think she might need to go to bed even earlier as she was showing tired signs from about six. I find it hard to manage to get her down earlier though as dinner time is usually 5.30 but I think we might need to eat earlier for a bit. I keep wondering if there's something medically wrong that I'm missing. Ten wakings just seems totally excessive when there's no apparent reason for her to wake and she's able to settle herself back to sleep.

 

[Noelle610]

polaris, that's good to know. I've heard that the 2-1 nap transition is hard, but once you're firmly on one nap it makes life so much easier! I am definitely looking foward to that.

To rule out anything medical, you may want to take her to the doctor just to ensure there's no ear infection.

That said, I suspect it's just part of the learning curve since they're really partial arousals. In his book, Ferber talks about how babies while learning to self soothe will still wake, but put themselves back to sleep relatively quickly.

It could also be that she's overtired. How long is she awake between the last nap and bedtime? Charlotte's really sensitive to that wake time. I know I've posted this chart before, but I think it's a good guideline - I would use the times recommended for 7/8 month olds just transitioning to two naps. I think you'll slowly be able to stretch her out until she has a more "normal" bedtime.

7/8 months (just transitioning to 2 naps): 2.25-2.5/2.5-2.75/2.5-3

That basically indicates the suggested amount of "awake time" between naps. So your routine would go something like this:

7:00am awake

9:15am10:30am nap 1

1:15pm-3:00pm nap 2

6:00pm bedtime

Or something like that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#

 

[polaris]

Thanks Noelle. Her schedule at the moment is generally something like this -

Wake-up - 7.30 (I generally have to wake her at 7.30 as she would sleep longer)
Nap 1 - 9.30 - 11 (Again I generally have to wake her at 11 because I need to get out somewhere with my three year old before lunch and also because ideally I want her to take her second nap at the same time as he is napping)
Nap 2 - 1.30 - 3ish (today she slept until 3.20)
Bedtime - had been 7 p.m. so 3.5 to 4 hours of awake time which I agree is too long. She went to sleep like a dream at 6.35 today and hasn't stirred yet.

I am really going to aim to have her in bed between 6 and 6.30 and see if it makes a difference to her night time sleep. Thomas definitely needed a 6.30p.m. bedtime at her age if I remember correctly. The problem I have with Clara is that she is so happy and laid-back that she actually doesn't get cranky or difficult when she's tired and it makes it too easy to keep her up for too long. With Thomas it wasn't really tempting to keep him up too long because he would just cry.

 

[MiniKiwi]

We had a great night last night, another 1 waking night. She slept 7pm through until 2 then she was up for an hour and 15 minutes and back to sleep until 7am. As far as motn parties go, that's a nice, short one

 

[Noelle610]

Thanks Noelle. Her schedule at the moment is generally something like this -

Wake-up - 7.30 (I generally have to wake her at 7.30 as she would sleep longer)
Nap 1 - 9.30 - 11 (Again I generally have to wake her at 11 because I need to get out somewhere with my three year old before lunch and also because ideally I want her to take her second nap at the same time as he is napping)
Nap 2 - 1.30 - 3ish (today she slept until 3.20)
Bedtime - had been 7 p.m. so 3.5 to 4 hours of awake time which I agree is too long. She went to sleep like a dream at 6.35 today and hasn't stirred yet.

I am really going to aim to have her in bed between 6 and 6.30 and see if it makes a difference to her night time sleep. Thomas definitely needed a 6.30p.m. bedtime at her age if I remember correctly. The problem I have with Clara is that she is so happy and laid-back that she actually doesn't get cranky or difficult when she's tired and it makes it too easy to keep her up for too long. With Thomas it wasn't really tempting to keep him up too long because he would just cry.

I would definitely try for an earlier bedtime. 3.5-4 hour is sometimes too long for my 10 month old, who is well rested

I do think it's hard with easy-going kids because they often don't show "sleep signs". For now, I'd go by the clock. I know it goes agains the general advise to "read your baby and not the book", but it just doesn't work for all kids (including my own).

 

[Noelle610]

We had a great night last night, another 1 waking night. She slept 7pm through until 2 then she was up for an hour and 15 minutes and back to sleep until 7am. As far as motn parties go, that's a nice, short one

 

[Boo44]

Hey all!!!!

You can probably tell by the use of exclamation marks that that was a cheery greeting and here's why: TWO WAKE UPS. Yes, that's right, just over a week into our 'preparation for starting gentle sleep training', we are down to two wakeups (post-dreamfeed).

This is a major improvement from as many as eight wakeups. Last night, I got two three-hour blocks of sleep from 10.30-1.30 and then 2-5am. Then he had one more feed and went back down till almost 6.30 (which, again, is a lot better than the recent pattern of starting his day at 5.30am and crashing out for a first nap around 7.30am.

Tonight, the proper no-tears self-settling starts. So far, I've been unlatching him before he falls asleep, and then putting him in his cot really really drowsy (eyes closed). Sometimes I've jiggled him a little to get him just awake enough. Then, if he starts stirring, I shush and pat him down in the cot (often putting my head on his chest, that calms him right down) until he goes to sleep. I've been hearing him wake during the night (hard not to, he sleeps about a foot away from me) and settling back to sleep. So tonight we're starting with putting him down eyes open. Wish me luck!

Shadowy and Noelle, glad to hear the sleep is better! Bananaz, hope it improves!!

Good luck Larkspur!!

Yay mini that's great, go Mia!!

Notnic - there is nothing worse than a milk strike! Before solids I was so anxious re his milk intake and it would stress me out sooo much when he refused it! I'm sure Finlay will be back on track soon poor little thing

Shadowy am so pleased the poop thjng is on the way out! Jack still has one in his nappy most mornings when I go in to him! But usually it's around half 6 so I can cope with that

 

[NotNic]

I think you've seen Finlay's photo. If you have you'd believe me when I say he's never had a food strike before! Sure he gets full and turns his head away and sometimes you can see in his face he isn't really enjoying what he's eating or drinking, but he'll persevere with it. (Apart from a Quorn scotch egg - but then who could blame him ) It's really unsettling. Can't tell if milk still isn't sitting well in his tummy or if he's taken the dropping the daytime milk literally! When he is well he has a very good diet, so that wouldn't necessarily be too bad and I could make sure he was topped up with a multivitamin. ATM though its very plain and basic, so I'm keeping up with the dioralyte drinks just to make sure he's at least properly hydrated. We've even had to introduce a water dream feed in and have a bottle in his cot for the morming. I'm not brave enough to try milk just in case it makes him queasy.

 

[gaiagirl]

Well ladies, sounds like lots have had good nights! Yay!

Good luck Larkspur!

For the past two evenings, my LO (also a Fin but Finley) has slept past the first sleep cycle at bedtime! Might not seem exciting but he has NEVER done that and now twice in a row. Bed at 8, first wake at 10. We still have the 2-3 hour issue but this is still a win!

I've actually kept him up a bit longer before bed. About 2.5/3 hours which goes against advice but just might be right for him! Still only 2 hours awake at a time between naps though.

He's been pretty good from 8-8 for a few days now. And he's in his room until midnight usually, then in with me.

Now if we could get back to the 4-5 hour stretches please.....

 

[Sunnie1984]

Hi ladies,

Sorry for the long absence, I've been feeling a bit under the weather and had no energy to do much other than look after Seren.

Seren has been STTN until two nights ago though, so at least I'm rested!

I've only gone back 5 pages to comment, so I'm sorry if I've missed anyone out.

Noelle - Glad you had some STTN with Charlotte. I think that once they hit all the major physical milestones (so probably walking) it should settle down, certainly the wonder weeks space themselves out, so it should give us more breaks of good sleep at the very least.

Vikkid - we're having nap trouble here too. Don't worry about the TV, if it got him to sleep it's worth it - we usually use Sky News, it works a treat!

Bananaz - Sorry Elsie is having trouble settling. I wonder whether it's because she's ready to nap transition and so she's a little under tired going to bed (in terms of all of her combined sleep - not because she's not tired at bed time).

I did wonder the other night whether it would be better to just get the sides off the cot as soon as Seren can walk properly (it turns into a toddler bed) and just deal with the night wakings before I can get too used to long stretches of STTN!

Polaris - It makes me feel loads better that your three year old was a terrible sleeper and now is great!

Notnic - Sorry you had some rough nights. At least you have some teeth through, I get really frustrated when Seren teethes but has nothing to show for it, it means we were both up in the night for nothing!

Hope you are both feeling better now, I agree on keeping him hydrated as much as possible. For food, as long as you offer regularly and he's eating something, I wouldn't worry too much. We can survive for quite a while on only a bit of food, as long as we are hydrated.

Pompey - Is it possible Annabelle needs a bit more awake time in the morning to get a longer first nap? If you can get a good long first nap, she might be better?

Shadowy - Yay for STTN and no night pooping! So glad it seems to have sorted itself, hopefully your changes have had an effect long term.

I do wake Seren if she naps over two hours (not that this really happens). Or I wake her when I think it will mess up bedtime (so she's only allowed 15 minutes after 4pm or she won't go to bed on time). I agree with the others though, I doubt you'd have gotten her back down at 2pm.

Larkspur - Congratulations, sounds like you are making fabulous progress. Be ready for a slight regression (most babies have them as they resist the change) and just be consistent and the great results should continue.


As for us...

Well I'm 28, nearly 29 to answer the previous question!

We were doing great here, she was STTN which was great.

Still tweaking naps, had a massive overtired meltdown on Friday night, but she still STTN.

Now she's been awake 4 or 5 times a night the past two nights, but I think it's because she's finally learning how to crawl forwards. She's been doing all four rocking and downward dog (google this if you don't know what it is, it's pretty funny) but today took two crawls forwards.

She's not done it since, but I'm hoping that will sort out the night wakings.

I've found with naps she's got variable awake times depending on the night, when she wakes, and how she is feeling. So i have to wait until she cries because she's so tired, them put her down.

Seems that she is more sensitive to undertired rather than overtired. I got a 1 hour nap followed by a 2 hour nap yesterday, which has to be a record.


Did anyone find that when naps started to consolidate they got early wakings? Seren has been waking at 5am, stirring for a bit, then going back to sleep until 6:15 ish. Did it sort itself out in the end?

x

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone!

Well either Clara is just naturally adjusting to self-settling quickly during the night or the early bedtime helped! She still cried out a few times during the night but we only had two actual waking, one at 3 p.m. where she moaned for about ten minutes and then went back to sleep without me going in to her, and one at 4.30 when she was actually crying so I fed her and she went back to sleep until 7.30!

So she slept 6.30 to 7.30 in her own cot with only one feed and only one other short wake-up! This is a miracle considering she has been waking literally every hour since she was about five months old.

 

[mrsbeano]

Polaris - you can join the 'at 7/8 months it got a lot better' club!

 

[Boo44]

Sunnie, I have definitely found that once his naps consolidated into 2 long naps per day we have ended up with many early mornings. Early for us is 6am. We have anything now from 6-7.20am (the 7.20 is amazing and has happened twice in 3 months!) and it's lasted for weeks on end! I've actually accepted it now and just go to bed early. The difference is also that before he always did wake around half 6 but I could put his dummy in and he'd sleep another hour. These days he's just much more alert and knows what's going on, so going in to give him his dummy makes no difference.
Most mornings I can leave him there until 7am (the earliest we ever get him out of bed) and he'll play fairly quietly and I can snooze. I followed bananaz' advice and popped a few cuddly toys in with him (and 4 dummies!) and he entertains himself lol

 

[Boo44]

Also - seren is doing so well crawling at 6 months!! Jack is still not crawling lol! But he does throw himself forward now which is an improvement

Well done Clara that's amazing!

I love the names seren and Clara! I'm keeping these pretty names in mind for baby no 2

 

[VikkiD]

Well I thing taking the dummy off Daniel is working well. Last night he went bed just before 7 and slept till 5am had a feed at 5 then back down till 6:45 fingers crossed for a repeat tonight. Just got to work on me sttn now

 

[Noelle610]

Wow, I'm so happy to read about all of these great nights! What happened to all of these bad sleepers?

Sunnie, those early wake-ups are sometimes indicative of a nap transition. Your LO is probably ready for some more wake-time! Naps absolutely consolidated and got longer for us when we went to 2. I'd try the 2/3/4 pattern. I think eventually you will find she lengthens the morning wake time to 3 hours. Oh and those wakings? Crawling for sure.

Charlotte is still sleeping amazingly. Honestly, though, it's making me nervous. I'm worried she's ill. She had a high fever on Saturday and she's fine now, but refusing a lot of food and drink. Ugh. If it's not sleep, it's something else.

 

[Shadowy Lady]

Polaris - awesome! So glad Clara is doing better

Sunnie - good on Seren for crawling already. Sofia crawls backwards and to the side, lol! Not forward yet though.

Larkspur - awesome progress and way to go Rafe!!

Sofia did pretty good last night. I went to the bathroom at 4 am and my toe hit the door stopper by accident (my poor toe) but i was so loud that I woke her up (our bathroom is in between her room and ours)...so she woke up annoyed and whined for 30 mins and went to sleep. She ended up sleeping till 8:15 am which is kinda late for her.

I'm gonna count last night as another good night for Sofia. Not so much for me coz I couldn't sleep after 4 am and my lil toe is swollen :/

 

[bananaz]

Yay, I'm glad to see most of you are having better sleep!

Sunnie - My LO is the same way - she can tolerate being overtired pretty well but putting her down when she's undertired is a recipe for disaster. And I bet those night wakings will sort themselves out once Seren has got the crawling sorted out! I know that's a big sleep disturber for a lot of babies.


We had another good night here! She slept from 7:30pm to 5am, when I fed her. Then she fussed off and on for maybe 45 minutes before going back to sleep until 7am. I guess all I need to do is threaten CIO and she gets her act together

 

[pachamama]

I'm really very inspired by you all!

And needing some more advice if I may...

I've been using a dummy with my lo who is 10 weeks old now and just this last week he's dropped to one night feed (4oz) at 1-2am... but he still wakes on average 4/5 other times to have his dummy replaced. After his 1-2am feed, for the last 2 nights I've swaddled him and popped him down on the bed whilst I was ferreting around with expressing equipment and he's fallen asleep with no dummy!! Is there any way of building on this? I've managed to pat him to sleep for all his daytime naps today but he just seems unable to sleep for longer than 45 mins without his dummy... If he wakes in the night, should I pick him up and pat him back to sleep rather than give him the dummy? Is this replacing one prop with another?

Any thoughts or advice - I never had similar issues with my first lo.

Many thanks in advance.

x

 

[Noelle610]

More great nights! Happy to hear this.

I'm really very inspired by you all!

And needing some more advice if I may...

I've been using a dummy with my lo who is 10 weeks old now and just this last week he's dropped to one night feed (4oz) at 1-2am... but he still wakes on average 4/5 other times to have his dummy replaced. After his 1-2am feed, for the last 2 nights I've swaddled him and popped him down on the bed whilst I was ferreting around with expressing equipment and he's fallen asleep with no dummy!! Is there any way of building on this? I've managed to pat him to sleep for all his daytime naps today but he just seems unable to sleep for longer than 45 mins without his dummy... If he wakes in the night, should I pick him up and pat him back to sleep rather than give him the dummy? Is this replacing one prop with another?

Any thoughts or advice - I never had similar issues with my first lo.

Many thanks in advance.

x

Ditch it cold turkey Sounds like he's fine without and you'll likely avoid those extra wakings after a few days. Easier to do it now than later.