Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[NotNic]

Polaris - Thomas is definitely the best sleep expert here alongside Noelle! I love how he knows just how much sleep he needs. Is his naps really affecting bedtime?

Finlay was very cute that morning. Also it's a really encouraging thing to know that he is happy playing in his cot, so if I want to take a shower or do something before the day starts then in the future I might be able to.

 

[dlj2]

dlj2 - sorry I knew I'd miss someone. I'm assuming you dont want to co-sleep - right? I'd be tempted to be a bit tough with your baby. It sounds like you have a very clever one and at the moment coming into your bed is a nice way to spend the night. Have you tried not going in immediately when your baby cries in the night? They might be calling out for company rather than through need. Can you observe from the doorway or somewhere lo can't see you? Alternatively try going in immediately before the cry wakes them up. (I realise this is totally contradictory but we wait and observe F when he's still in a light sleep and its our eve and do the opposite through the night!). Try your hardest not to pick them up. Reassure them in the cot or sit next to the cot to encourage them to lay down and hold their hand or have a hand on their back / tummy. You're probably going to have a tough couple of nights, but with all types of sleep management consistency is key. I'm a big one for explaining to F why his plan isn't going to work so if we were experiencing the same thing I would tell him 'Mummy is going to be right here. This is your bed and you need to sleep here. It's not morning so you can't come out yet'. Then I wouldn't say anything else as its the interaction they want. Alternatively CC would probably fix the problem quite easily but I don't think this sounds right for you. Good luck x

I also forgot to say thank you to the WIO encouragement, so thank you! F is teething badly. 8,9 and 10 all swelling at his gums and he's off his food only eating cold things. We've had some poor nights but Monday was great. He sttn (7.45 - 6am) and I gave him his dummy back to see if we could get a bit longer before OH got up for work 6.50am. Next thing I knew it was 7.25am. I'd turned off the alarm in my sleep and OH was v. late for work. We couldn't believe F had slept for that long and we went to check on him. Turns out he hadn't! He was playing quietly and happily with his teddies. Love him! No idea how long he'd been awake for but he didnt cry out or play with his Alfie bear. The rustle of his soft cubes is normally loud enough that I can hear them on the monitor. This sort of morning is just the type I'd like to order. Last night not so good. Painful wailing around 3.30am which ended up with nurofen and me waking him up at 6.30am again. I bet he's well happy at nursery today....

Thanks so much for your replies, last night unbelievably she sttn! I couldn't believe it! I'd been very strict with her naps during the day and slightly earlier to bed, today I've done the same so fingers crossed. I will certainly be following the advice you've given if not tho, I'd like to get away from co-sleeping as it doesn't totally fit with me at this age, I'm happy if she's poorly or teething etc but I'm a believer that she's better in her cot.

Thanks again! Will be keeping an eye on this thread such a good one.xx

 

[kettle28]

Lo napped for 2hrs 5m on his 2nd nap today! Usually 50m max and more often 35-40mins!!

Now, what made the difference?

In a bigger sleep suit (one with no feet, sleeves and legs rolled up!) or, blanket draped over side of cot?!?!?!

 

[freddie]

Hello ladies! On stephie_corin's advice I have come to join this thread in the hope of getting some advice as I think I'm teetering on the edge of insanity! I am in definite need of some support from people who know what it's like to have a "wakeful baby" - that's my nice, put a smile on your face, grin and bear it name for my NIGHTMARE SLEEPER!!

DS is nearly 9 months old and I am running out of excuses for why he wakes so much He averages 5 to 7 night wakings I'd say but it's not rare for him to go up to 10 or so on a bad night. He's also recently started to stay up for between 1 and 3 hours at around 1am I'm bringing him into bed with me at this stage and he seems to sleep a bit better but I sleep terribly as I can't get comfy/ worry about him... So I'm still exhausted!

I have been working on settling him back to sleep in the cot as previously he was rocked/ nursed to sleep for every waking. I read the No Cry Sleep Solution and have been attempting to gradually withdraw the help that we give LO to sleep as wondering if maybe if he could fall asleep himself the night wakings would stop. However, it is proving very difficult to get any further than we have done now.

I have got to the stage where I can pat him back to sleep in his cot for the first few wakings but once it gets to 10.30pm (which is when I first feed him) this no longer works and he has to be rocked for all further wakings. I now only feed him at 10.30pm and 3.30am - hoping to gradually get rid of the 3.30am one in the hope that it might stop him waking up?!?! Mind you, getting rid of the other feeds hasn't stopped him

Our current routine on a "best case scenario" day is

6am - wake, breastfeed
7.30 - Breakfast
8.30am - Nap - 1 hr 30 mins
10am - Breasfteed
11.45 - Lunch
1pm - Nap - 1 hour
2pm - Breastfeed
4.30 - Breastfeed
5pm - Dinner
5.45 - Bath
6.30 - Bed

However, at the moment, he is fighting sleep in the day as well... I spent a good couple of weeks working on his naps before and got them from 20 mins each to 1/ 1 and a half hours. But at the moment he's gone back to waking up after 20-40 minutes and only sleeping longer on my lap.

Sorry for the essay...

So yep, that's me. Any advice/ sympathy will be greatly appreciated

 

[polaris]

Hi Rachel, welcome! Although sorry that you have to be here. Your LO is a similar age to Clara and they sound quite similar in their aversion to sleeping for any reasonable length of time. Except that Clara is able to self-settle (although she doesn't always do so) but it never made any difference to the amount of night wakings so I didn't even have that excuse for her!

From your schedule, your wake times are 2.5 hours before 1st nap, 3 hours before second nap, and then 4.5 hours before bed. I would say that the last wake time is too long and could be contributing to night wakings. I would try to rejig your schedule a bit to shorten the last wake time. I am currently having good success with 3, 3.5, 3.5 - she is waking at 6.30 a.m. and napping at 9.30-10.45 and 2.15-3.45 (approximately), and bedtime at 7.15 p.m. I'm guessing that your LO is probably wanting a shorter wake time before first nap because he is exhausted from being up half the night, that is the way Clara was, she would be ready for her first nap after only 2 hours sometimes, but I have found that stretching her first wake-time to 3 hours has really helped with the overall day-time routine.

I don't know what else to suggest. It sounds like you are making great progress in getting him to settle to sleep other ways than nursing but I know how exhausting that can be. I've recently gone back to full-time co-sleeping in a bid to get some sleep. Clara developed an aversion to the cot and was just refusing to sleep in it at all so I've just given up on that for the moment. And she is actually sleeping so much better - she is even sometimes doing a long stretch in the evenings from 7 to 10.30/11 which would never have been Clara's style, LOL! (OK it's not that long of a stretch but Clara could have fitted in a couple of wakings in that length of time) I do think she likes having more space to stretch out and roll about. I used to co-sleep with her when she was younger and stopped partly for the reasons you mention (not able to get comfortable or sleep much myself) but the difference this time is that it is just me and Clara (OH is in the main bed and we are on a futon in the spare room) and I have the room set up so that I'm happy that it's safe for her so I don't worry about her crawling off the bed or under the covers etc.

What are your views on sleep training involving crying?

 

[polaris]

Polaris - Thomas is definitely the best sleep expert here alongside Noelle! I love how he knows just how much sleep he needs. Is his naps really affecting bedtime?

Finlay was very cute that morning. Also it's a really encouraging thing to know that he is happy playing in his cot, so if I want to take a shower or do something before the day starts then in the future I might be able to.

LOL Thomas loves his naps! He would literally sleep all afternoon if I let him. However when he was napping every day, it was really affecting bedtime and he would be awake until 10.30 p.m. some evenings which was just way too late for me (as I wanted to go to bed myself and he'd still be awake, not good!). The current approach (of only letting him nap every few days or if he really seems to need it) does seem to be working though - his bedtime is about 1-1.5 hours later on days that he does nap but that's manageable. Once he's asleep by about 9 p.m. I'm happy enough. I just wish he would just be ready to fully drop the nap so that our days would be a bit more predictable! I have to have a totally different evening routine on nap days compared to non-nap days - when he doesn't nap he goes to bed before Clara whereas when he does nap she goes to bed first so it can get a bit confusing for my poor sleep-deprived brain to handle!

 

[stephie_corin]

Polaris, I'm so happy for you. Go Clara!!! Thomas sounds hilarious. I can't imagine Cully ever begging for a nap! I hope you manage to wean him off naps soon. You and DH need some adult time too!

Kettle, what a great nap! Awesome! Not sure what made the difference but enjoy

Rachel! Hi and welcome. I agree with what Polaris has advised. Try the different waketimes and let us know how you go. If your son is sleepy in the mornings, a quick walk in the sun 15 minutes before his usual nap time should help him push through.

As for us, we've reached the point my poor DH has to sleep downstairs. He's just too busy at work to function on broken sleep and Cully is crying when he wakes which is waking not jut me but also DH. I feel really tired today. I'm thinking of only feeding him at 11 and 3 (approx) and rocking him back to sleep the other times. I really want him to start taking more milk during the day and I thought his might help. I don't know if I am making a rod for my own back but feeding every hour is difficult because he won't nurse lying down. If he did that he could feed all night! I don't know if this is a good idea or will just make him hungry and mad! It's worth a shot I think.

Hope everyone is doing well!! X

 

[freddie]

Hi Rachel, welcome! Although sorry that you have to be here. Your LO is a similar age to Clara and they sound quite similar in their aversion to sleeping for any reasonable length of time. Except that Clara is able to self-settle (although she doesn't always do so) but it never made any difference to the amount of night wakings so I didn't even have that excuse for her!

From your schedule, your wake times are 2.5 hours before 1st nap, 3 hours before second nap, and then 4.5 hours before bed. I would say that the last wake time is too long and could be contributing to night wakings. I would try to rejig your schedule a bit to shorten the last wake time. I am currently having good success with 3, 3.5, 3.5 - she is waking at 6.30 a.m. and napping at 9.30-10.45 and 2.15-3.45 (approximately), and bedtime at 7.15 p.m. I'm guessing that your LO is probably wanting a shorter wake time before first nap because he is exhausted from being up half the night, that is the way Clara was, she would be ready for her first nap after only 2 hours sometimes, but I have found that stretching her first wake-time to 3 hours has really helped with the overall day-time routine.

I don't know what else to suggest. It sounds like you are making great progress in getting him to settle to sleep other ways than nursing but I know how exhausting that can be. I've recently gone back to full-time co-sleeping in a bid to get some sleep. Clara developed an aversion to the cot and was just refusing to sleep in it at all so I've just given up on that for the moment. And she is actually sleeping so much better - she is even sometimes doing a long stretch in the evenings from 7 to 10.30/11 which would never have been Clara's style, LOL! (OK it's not that long of a stretch but Clara could have fitted in a couple of wakings in that length of time) I do think she likes having more space to stretch out and roll about. I used to co-sleep with her when she was younger and stopped partly for the reasons you mention (not able to get comfortable or sleep much myself) but the difference this time is that it is just me and Clara (OH is in the main bed and we are on a futon in the spare room) and I have the room set up so that I'm happy that it's safe for her so I don't worry about her crawling off the bed or under the covers etc.

What are your views on sleep training involving crying?

Thank you for your reply I'm not comfortable with any sleep training that involves crying... So after other ideas!! The No Cry Sleep Solution has some good methods but I do seem to be a bit stuck now...

I think you're right about that last wake time being too long - I hadn't even really realised until writing our routine down! I like the sound of your suggested wake times. So far today, he woke at 6.45am and I put him for a nap at 9.35... However he only napped for 40 minutes I tried hard to put him back down for more sleep - he fell asleep in my arms but every time I tried to put him back down he woke up GRR! So, now I'm wondering, if I stretch those wake times but he still naps only 40 minutes, should I put him to bed earlier?!

For example, with 40 minute naps and 3,3.5,3.5 wake times that would make his day:

6.45 - wake
9.35 - nap
10.15 - wake
1.45 - nap
2.25 - wake
5.55 - Bed

Obviously I'm hoping that his second nap will be longer but if it's not, he'll end up with a super early bed time if I use the new awake times. Should I go ahead and do the early bed time in this situation do you think?!

I reckon my OH should sleep downstairs, he so doesn't cope well with the lack of sleep/ going to work... He's done it a couple of times but he says he feels bad to leave me on my own to deal with the baby - maybe I should tell him to do it though, I think it might be better for him!

 

[freddie]

Rachel! Hi and welcome. I agree with what Polaris has advised. Try the different waketimes and let us know how you go. If your son is sleepy in the mornings, a quick walk in the sun 15 minutes before his usual nap time should help him push through.

Good plan, gonna try this!

 

[stephie_corin]

Rachel, how does he cope on his cat nap? If he seems ok you can push him through and go with the earlier bed time, or try a 10/15 minute cat nap before bed to help him push through. I hope his second nap was better! I usually find if C catnaps in the morning it's much easier to get him down for a longer afternoon nap.

X

 

[VikkiD]

Lo only had one short nap yesterday finally he was in bed for 6:45 he had one moan around 10:30 but slept till 7:15 longest he as ever done. Doubt I will be that lucky again lol

 

[polaris]

Rachel, I would go with the early bedtime, Clara has gone through phases of being in bed for 6 p.m. I also find that Clara usually takes a longer nap in the afternoon if she's only had a short nap in the morning. But some days naps just don't really work out no matter what you do!

We didn't have a great night last night, not sure why really, she was just very unsettled and then up for the day at 5.30 which is really not like her.

 

[AmyS]

A bad night here too - up 5 times. She just didn't seem comfortable last night. I let her fuss for a few minutes longer than usual to see if she'd fall back to sleep, but she was trying to sit straight up in her rock 'n play, so I fed her twice, and rocked her to sleep the other times. I think we will go back to the crib tonight.
__________

Stephie - No one sleeps at our house either when Chloe cries at night, and unfortunately, hubby can't escape it!! And neither can the dogs! I am also trying not to feed too much during the night in hopes that LO will eat more during the day. She just snacks an ounce at a time at daycare sometimes - it's so frustrating!

Rachel - I don't like sleep training involving crying either, but sometimes I wonder if that's the only way she might learn a new way of doing things? I don't know! I read No Cry Sleep Solution too, and it sounds good, but I still haven't implemented anything from it! My LO isn't quite as old as yours (only 7 months) but earlier bed times have helped a couple of times this week to cut down on wake times.

polaris - Sounds just like the night I had! I brought mine on with that silly BnB curse though! haha

 

[VikkiD]

Daniel as only had one nap today 10:30 till 11.30 and as just gone sleep at 6:45 not sure what's going on with him at the min was nap yesterday as well but that was 11:30 till 12:30

 

[polaris]

Steph - that's so frustrating that he won't feed lying down. Feeding lying down is totally fantastic for maximizing sleep. Have you any idea why he won't do it? Thomas never mastered feeding lying down, he would just lose the latch straight away or else continue with a really poor latch and get he would get loads of wind and I would get sore nipples. I absolutely love feeding lying down with Clara though and she rarely feeds any other way really. I would definitely try spacing out feeds if you have to sit up to feed him anyway.

Amy - so sorry you had an unsettled night too. LOL at Chloe keeping the dogs awake at night!

Vikki, maybe he is dropping to one nap? If he's sleeping really well at night time then it could be, although he is very young. What is he like during the day on just one nap, does he seem tired or is he OK?

Seaweed, how is Munchkin doing?

Both of mine fast asleep by 7.15 this evening - yay - might even get a bit of a child free evening before Clara wakes up!

 

[freddie]

stephie_corin - Hes' not terrible after a catnap, just more fussy and clingy really. Second nap was no better, only 40 minutes again. Also we went out to see some friends so he didn't nap til he fell asleep in the car at 2.25 - so about 4 hours of wake time between nap 1 and nap 2...

Polaris - As the second nap ended up being later, bed time was around normal time but he had a shorter, 3.5 hour wake time before bed. Do you think the longer wake time before nap 2 has an effect on night time sleep or is the time between last nap and bedtime the most important thing? Sorry to hear you didn't have a good night, 5.30 is definitely too early!!

AmyS - I'd definitely give some of the ideas a try, it's slow progress but LO is definitely learning to fall asleep without always needing his "props" (rocking/ nursing) We're by no means "sleep trained" but I'm holding out hope that gentle, no cry methods will work in the end!

 

[freddie]

Normally he wakes up like clockwork 40 minutes after being put to bed at night but it's been 1 hour 20 minutes and he's still asleep... I'm going to tell myself this means we're in for a wonderfully peaceful night LOL.

 

[polaris]

stephie_corin - Hes' not terrible after a catnap, just more fussy and clingy really. Second nap was no better, only 40 minutes again. Also we went out to see some friends so he didn't nap til he fell asleep in the car at 2.25 - so about 4 hours of wake time between nap 1 and nap 2...

Polaris - As the second nap ended up being later, bed time was around normal time but he had a shorter, 3.5 hour wake time before bed. Do you think the longer wake time before nap 2 has an effect on night time sleep or is the time between last nap and bedtime the most important thing? Sorry to hear you didn't have a good night, 5.30 is definitely too early!!

AmyS - I'd definitely give some of the ideas a try, it's slow progress but LO is definitely learning to fall asleep without always needing his "props" (rocking/ nursing) We're by no means "sleep trained" but I'm holding out hope that gentle, no cry methods will work in the end!

I think it's the wake time before bed that is the most important for preventing over-tiredness. Not 100% sure on this, does anyone know for definite?

 

[VikkiD]

Polaris - yes most of the time he seems ok and doesn't sit still crawling and cruising everywhere he woke at 7:15 this morning slept for an hour at 10:30 and sleep at 6:45

 

[NotNic]

I don't know Polaris. Maybe Noelle, Twister or Seaweed will be online. I think they know things about wake times. I'm clueless on any official theories. I'm a bit more wing it / trial and error in style