Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[stephie_corin]

Seaweed - he has recently started to crawl... I try to encourage him as much as I can to do this throughout the day as I think it tires him out! He does this funny little army crawl that makes him look like a little worm sliding across the floor He has lots of stimulation during wake times .

Talking about stimulation - what do people do for calming/ wind down before bed? He used to calm quite easily in the evening but lately he has been going wild! He seems to get this burst of energy after his bath and just want to crawl everywhere/ touch everything... If I pick him up to try to cuddle he pretty much beats me up to climb out of my arms! We have stories and relaxing music but he won't even stay still for his story a lot of the time now!! He's loopy!

Cully is very much like this - I hope the others have some tips for you! The only thing that works in my favour is that he hasn't had a feed for 5 hours by bedtime (his choice) so breastfeeding usually knocks him out. X

 

[polaris]

Stephie, that's so funny, I was actually just logging on to add to what I had suggested about feeding lying down and I was going to suggest giving him the start of the feed sitting up and then finishing the feed lying down! Clara sometimes doesn't like feeding lying down if she's really hungry and wants to feed fast, she prefers to be in an upright position so she can gulp the milk down! But once she's finished actively feeding she is then happy to lie down and finish the feed and drift off to sleep. And most times at night I think she is feeding for comfort rather than being really hungry, so it works really well overnight. I just tilt myself forward to give her the other boob, takes a bit of getting used to but it's much easier than trying to move baby over to the other side.

Rachel, so sorry you had such an awful night last night. I do think you need to persevere with routine/schedule changes in order for them to have any impact. In my experience, they don't necessarily correlate on a day to day basis (i.e. you can have a rubbish nap day and then have a good night, or vice versa) but over time, having a good day time routine and watching wake-times and avoiding over-tiredness will help with night time sleep too. But you need to give it a bit of time to see any improvement.

Regarding your question about wind-down time and getting a burst of energy after the bath, I would probably look at whether an earlier bedtime might help. Sometimes (not always) getting a burst of energy like that can actually be a sign of over-tiredness, the baby has gone past their natural sleep window and so they pump themselves full of adrenaline and cortisol to stay awake and it can lead to a crazy energy burst which often has a bit of a manic feel to it. A lot of babies get quite cranky or erratic when they are in this state (happy one minute and crying the next) but Clara doesn't get cranky at all, she just seems full of beans and a bit giggly. It's only by shortening her wake-times that I have figured out that she was actually over-tired because she settles to sleep so much easier after a shorter wake-time. I don't have much of a wind-down routine with Clara, it's very difficult to manage because I have my 3 year old to look after too. When possible I try to bring her into the bedroom about a half hour before sleep time and we listen to some music and play with her lovey for a bit and then she has a feed and goes off to sleep. But often I can't leave Thomas for that long so it's not really consistent.

Mrssunshine, great news that Jasmine is sleeping better! I hope you had a lovely holiday too!

 

[stephie_corin]

Thanks Polaris! It all worked perfectly until he woke one cycle in ... Cue tears and hysterics until I picked him up, rocked him and then he latched on and nursed again. When we were lying down I tried to offer but he wasn't interested .... Definitely a work in progress. I'm sure if we nurse lying down for every nap from now on he will get the hang of it.

Alternatively I could sit up all night and hold him

He has such strong sleep associations - it has to be done the same way for him or he has a meltdown. I know it's my fault but it is so frustrating. Anyway, I'm sure we will get there in the end! Thanks again for the support and tips xx

 

[polaris]

I wouldn't say it's your fault Stephie, some babies just form stronger associations naturally and really NEED everything to be done in a particular way. Actually Thomas was more like this that Clara, he always got really dependent on routines and couldn't handle it if I did things differently, like even if I did things in a slightly different order, he just wouldn't like it and wouldn't settle. Or another example, he wouldn't sleep without a sleeping bag on even if it was really hot in his room. Clara doesn't care about things like that and despite her difficulty in staying asleep, she also doesn't have very strong sleep associations (although she obviously has some). They are just all different and need different things. I know everyone says this all the time, but honestly I only realized how true it is now that I have two who are completely different from each other.

 

[stephie_corin]

I wouldn't say it's your fault Stephie, some babies just form stronger associations naturally and really NEED everything to be done in a particular way. Actually Thomas was more like this that Clara, he always got really dependent on routines and couldn't handle it if I did things differently, like even if I did things in a slightly different order, he just wouldn't like it and wouldn't settle. Or another example, he wouldn't sleep without a sleeping bag on even if it was really hot in his room. Clara doesn't care about things like that and despite her difficulty in staying asleep, she also doesn't have very strong sleep associations (although she obviously has some). They are just all different and need different things. I know everyone says this all the time, but honestly I only realized how true it is now that I have two who are completely different from each other.

Thank you so much! Sometimes it's hard not to think you've failed Parenting 101! DH and I are both very stubborn and I have to check the house in the exact same order every night - lights, stove, door locked etc., before I can get to sleep, so poor Cully never stood a chance really. Lol... X

 

[VikkiD]

Daniel slept till 4am then woke an wouldn't go back sleep so I fed him then he went back till 7:10, he's been awake since no nap he's tired but fighting it this will be the third day in a row with only one nap if I can get him to settle soon

 

[AmyS]

Seaweed - No suggestions for you on the beds, but I know it's so hard to get LO's used to something and then go and change it on them! I'm sure he will get used to the daycare bed pretty quickly if he will be there full-time. What did you have to do to get your LO used to his crib? We are working on that with Chloe. She slept in her rock 'n play for so long, and she sleeps really well in that. If I put her in her crib, as soon as she rolls onto her tummy, she wakes up and gets mad! Even if I lay her down asleep on her tummy, it doesn't seem to help.

Aimee - Doesn't it seem like everything goes out the window when they are working on all of the developmental stuff, like crawling? My LO is 7 months too, and she has been trying to crawl in her sleep for the past 2 weeks, so she's been waking very often if she's sleeping in her crib.

Stephie - Sorry you're having such a rough time now! I have no breastfeeding advice! My LO wouldn't latch when she was born, so I pumped for 3 months before I eventually had to switch to formula. Sounds like we are going through some similar things with hard to settle babies! Chloe just seems so angry when she wakes up, and she just fights me, then falls asleep, then cries out, then falls asleep, etc. We did that for 45 minutes last night, but thankfully she only woke that one time.

mrssunshine - Wow, sounds like CC is really working for you! Congrats!

Vikki - I absolutely dread 4am at my house! Sometimes, my LO will sleep through it, but most of the time, she's wide awake!
___________

We had a pretty good night. Chloe is sick with a summer cold, so I kept her in her rock 'n play again because of all of her drainage. I put her to bed early, at 6:30, and I fell asleep at 7:30!! Then, my mom called my cell at 9:15 and woke us both up, so it took me 45 minutes to get her back down. She was angry. She didn't want to be cuddled, but she didn't want to be put down either. Once she was down though, she slept until 5am, I fed her, and she went back down until 6:30. Pretty good, but I don't understand why she can't sleep this good in her crib!!

 

[stephie_corin]

Amy that's amazing sleeping by Chloe! I don't know anything about reflux but is it possible she has silent reflux and that's why she doesn't like sleeping lying down? Or do you think she's just used to being propped up now?

After rereading my posts today I've realised how bad things have got - I need to do something - I can't keep rocking him to sleep every hour and then more frequently as the night progresses. He woke at 7 (bedtime 6) and I rubbed his belly for about 30 minutes but he got more frantic. I ended up picking him up and he relaxed pretty quickly. I didn't rock though, just gentle swaying.

I'm wondering whether you ladies would recommend:

1) a gentle approach where I pick him up but not rock him, then move to putting him on the bed with my arms around him, with a goal of moving to just snuggling/tummy rubbing/nursing in order to soothe him; or

2) just stop picking him up altogether and soothe him by nursing lying down or snuggling/tummy rubbing. I'm afraid this option may involve a lot of fussing/crying and I can't personally leave him to cry but I don't know if option number 1 will even work.

Has anyone gently broken a strong pick up/rock to sleep association?

Or should I just continue to wait it out and do nothing? I'm so confused. I don't want to do any form of sleep training with crying. But I don't know if things will get better on their own? I find my ability to be rational about this diminishes even further the less sleep I get!!! I want to meet his current needs to be helped to sleep but I need to balance this with my own sanity.

I'm more than happy to help him back to sleep but the picking up/rocking is really hard on me. Any advice or opinions gratefully received.

Edit - I actually came back to delete this post but I'm going to leave it. I feel so foolish and slightly paralysed about this whole sleep situation. Please be kind to me!

 

[AmyS]

Stephie - I have no idea what her deal is with the crib! I have wondered about silent reflux, but she really has no symptoms of it. I think I'll ask at her doctor's appt today though!

Personally, I'd go with the more gentle option first...or at least the option that you think you have a shot at working. You can always move to something a little more ideal later.

 

[gaiagirl]

Stephie don't feel foolish! We have ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL felt that way, unless you've had a magical sleeping unicorn baby who doesn't require constant analysis. Lol. And I don't think anyone here has!

Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? I think she has some recommendations on breaking sleep associations. I would think maybe the gradual rocking less and less over time approach? I agree that it's a good plan to work on not having to pick him up every time because that makes bedsharing a lot less convenient!

A good (albeit tiny but ill take anything this week) sign: morning nap nursing laying down in my bed and F unlatched and pushed away himself as he drifted off! Lol. Believe me, THIS week that's huge!

 

[NotNic]

Stephie - you are at that magic week I was when I came here for help. I was at my wits end BUT magically one night he became a different baby. He wasn't a perfect sleeper but our sleep experiences became at least half way normal. I also think around 7mths they start becoming real little people and its hard not to be grumpy when you start feeling like they are capable of sleeping and they are choosing not to. Can you bear going cold turkey on any motion / rocking to sleep? Rather than remove yourself completely, static contact - a nice calm cuddle or jut sitting w/ him on your lap might help break down the association but you're still being attentive. Figure out what it is you're willing to do and we'll help you. It seems hard but they will get better. Not perfect (otherwise I wouldn't still be online so much ) but manageable xx

 

[stephie_corin]

Amy, good luck at the doctors appointment.

Gaia, great news on the self settling at nap time!!

Notnic, thanks for your advice, I know we've chatted before about motion addiction on this thread and you gave me some good advice then too! I need to commit to changing his sleep as I've been talking about it for a while.

Thanks to you all for your empathy, understanding and advice. I think I'll try cold turkey on rocking but still pick him up. If he gets hysterical though I think I'll need to rock him - hopefully it doesn't get to that point! I'll report back on our progress but try not to bore you all with nap by nap live posting!!!

Thank you again all so much. I've read all your responses to DH and he says you give good advice!!

Edit - Gaia, I do have NCSS - it's on my ereader at the moment so I will revisit it tonight and see if she's got any other good advice!

 

[freddie]

Polaris - Yes I was beginning to wonder whether his burst of energy could be due to being over tired... I suppose I will have to wait and see if shortening his wake times changes that...

I'm feeling very down about tonight's bed time Stuck to the 3, 3.5, 3.5 wake times (well, that was the plan) but LO took an hour to go to sleep so has ended up with a 4.5 hour wake time So presuming tonight will be no better than usual

Stephie - My LO has the strongest rock to sleep association ever! He still needs it to fall asleep initially but I can often resettle him without rocking now. I used methods in the No Cry Sleep Solution and would absolutely recommend reading it. I used to have to rock him til he was sound asleep and gently lower him into his cot without so much as breathing across him or he'd wake and I'd have to start all over... I basically very gradually (and I mean VERY gradually!) reduced the amount of time I rocked him for, so that I was stopping sooner and sooner while he fell asleep. I'm still working on it but we have made huge progress when I think back to how much he needed it when we started

The No Cry Sleep Solution actually has step by step examples of gradually withdrawing rocking as a sleep prop and she also includes logs and things to help you keep track of your progress... I think I need to read it again and redo my plan as I think I've stopped making progress atm...

 

[seaweed eater]

Lots of hugs Stephie don't feel foolish, and don't feel like it's your fault! I don't have to tell you how much more you know about baby sleep by now than the average mom. Most babies just naturally learn more quickly how to sleep better and their mothers never encounter these kinds of situations. I know so well firsthand that the combination of persistence and alertness/distractibility makes things really tough.

Can you articulate what it is about letting him cry that feels so wrong to you? That may sound like a silly question. But there are so many different crying approaches and you may find that there are some that feel all right to you. Personally I know I had a breakthrough after someone I respect really challenged me about CIO. It made me realize that I'm willing to tolerate making Munchkin angry about not having what he's used to, but I do believe (unlike some who sleep train) that he may have a legitimate need for security and comfort, and I don't want to risk depriving him of something he needs. And since crying can communicate either of these, I'm generally not comfortable ignoring it, but I would be comfortable ignoring it if I were somehow 100% sure it was anger and not need. I feel that as his mother, not his friend, it's ok for me to make him angry. So that led me toward sleep training approaches where I feel that his needs are still being met and I am willing to assume that any crying is due to anger. If anything I am even more set in my unwillingness to CIO than I was before, but now I know my boundaries.

I'm sorry to ramble on about me. I just wanted to give you an example of how thinking through this can help. I also don't mean to exert any pressure to use crying techniques, or to question your opposition to them. Maybe as you think through it you will find that there are no such methods that could ever feel all right to you. That's fine, of course, but hopefully you will at least have more clarity about your options and feel more confident that you have tried everything available to you and now it's time to WIO. It just seems like you keep feeling both pressure to do more than you are doing now and unease with the options that are left to you. It's so hard to live with that tension AND with the sleep deprivation, and I think you have enough insight about yourself that you might at least be able to find a way to resolve the tension, if not address the sleep deprivation.

 

[AmyS]

Seaweed - Great post! You really explained your thought process well. I agree with the types of cries that I am willing to tolerate. It breaks my heart if she's crying because she needs my comfort, and I don't care what anyone says, I will comfort her until the day I die if that's what she needs. But, if she's just pissed at me for changing up her routine when I know what we are doing is for the best, I can tolerate that.

Stephie, Rachel, Gaiagirl - I am going to read my NCSS again too, and get my plan in place...for real this time. Of course, it will have to wait until LO is over her cold. Doctor said to keep her elevated until she starts getting better. Back to the rock 'n play tonight! I think I remember one part of the book (unless it's another book, I've read so many), where you just keep picking them up when they cry, making them drowsy, and putting them back down as many times as you need to. Very similar to pu/pd. I think that's what I'll attempt. Could make for some very long nights. From everything I've read, one thing stand out: Consistency is the key for success! I've definitely been consistent with feeding or rocking her to sleep!

 

[polaris]

Stephie Please don't feel foolish. I know that feeling of confusion and paralysis so well. Feeling like the current situation is unsustainable but really just having no idea of what, if anything, you should do about it. I think it is totally compounded by lack of sleep too, I have found myself literally unable to think straight or make even the smallest of decisions without endless agonizing.

I do agree that the situation would be much more manageable for you if you didn't have to pick him up at every waking. That must be just exhausting - and he's a big boy - my muscles used to just ache lifting little Clara in and out of the cot all the time and I imagine Cully probably weighs more than she does. However I think you need to balance the need to make a change against the difficulty/distress involved in actually making the change. Trying to change things, no matter how gently and gradually, is always going to be more difficult than maintaining the status quo (in the short term), so I think it's always important to weigh it up and decide whether it's worth it. I think only you can be the judge of what method to use. How does Cully react if you pick him up but don't rock him? Does he cry much less and calm much quicker than if you don't pick him up at all? If so, then maybe that's the way to go. However if he still cries a lot even when picked up then I would be tempted to go cold turkey on picking him up but still lying next to him and comforting him in whatever way he will accept. I think seaweed's point about working out what is and isn't acceptable to you is really well made and useful for all of us to think about.

Rachel - try not to feel down about bedtime not going according to plan. Sometimes despite our best efforts things just don't go to plan. And even if everything works out exactly as you planned it, it's still no guarantee that LO will sleep any better than usual. I have had so many nights of putting Clara to bed after a "perfect" day and thinking that she "must" sleep tonight, only for her to wake up as usual 45 minutes later.

Gaia - yay, great news on F starting to self-settle! This is what Clara does nearly all the time now although she still goes through phases of wanting to feed to sleep, usually she pulls off and rolls over and then settles herself.

Amy - sorry to hear that Chloe isn't well. Sounds like an amazing night's sleep though! Maybe she's just not comfortable in the crib for some reason. I really don't think Clara was comfortable in the cot, she really likes having a big space to roll around on, she moves around so much in her sleep that she must have found the cot very restrictive!

Vikki - how did Daniel do today? Did you have another one nap day?

Clara was teething very badly today and was actually cranky and obviously in pain during the day (which is unusual for her). I gave her Nurofen at bedtime and that seems to have settled her. It's so much easier to know what to do when it's really obvious that it's teething compared to when you are just guessing about what could possibly be wrong.

 

[freddie]

AmyS - there are some differences to pu/pd. The thing I actually liked about NCSS is that she says not to worry if you try and try but it's not working on a particular night - just go back to your normal way of getting baby to sleep that night and try again tomorrow. It makes it feel so much more achievable than some things I've read like Baby Whisperer where it seems you are expected to battle the baby's will no matter what. She explains it in a way that encourages you to feel successful if you are putting your plan into place *most* of the time, rather than only if you're managing it all the time iykwim

Good luck with reading/ planning... I'm with you on that!

 

[VikkiD]

Yes another one nap today but he took it at 12:40 till 2:40 bedtime was 7:30 tonight as we were out. Last night he slept till 4am then woke for a feed then back down till 7:15 it took him ages to drop to two naps so this one nap as just come out of no where and shocked me

 

[freddie]

Thanks Polaris, I know I shouldn't worry about it not working out today... There is always tomorrow...

Does anyone else wonder what it is that makes some babies just seem totally unable to sleep without all kinds of props/ enticing/ encouragement and others just sleep through the night from day one?! In my nct group all the other babies just sleep. They are put in their cot and they sleep. Just like that. JEALOUS!

 

[polaris]

Vikki, it sounds like he is managing the transition really well! You are lucky! He might still have the odd day when he needs two naps but it sounds like you are well on the way to just having the one nap now.