Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

Currently in the middle of the 4 month sleep regression but when we come out the other side and hoping to sort out oscars sleep.
ATM I feed him to sleep and wait until he's dead to the world before I putting him down. I'm hoping I can teach him to self soothe . His naps are a nightmare and it would be great if he would nap on his cot instead of on me/sling/pram.
How many naps should a 4-5 month old be having (not sure when this regression will end!) and any tips or things that I can be reading to try help him nap better /self soothe (I don't want to use cc/CIO)
Thanks!

Hi Keese and welcome... 4 month sleep regression is tough! Depending on how long your LO naps for, you should be aiming for 3-4 naps at that age. You could get by on 3 is they are long ones but if he is taking cat naps definitely give 4 naps. You should be aiming for 1.75-2 hours max awake time during the day. Usually the first awake period is the shortest and the last awake period is the longest. So the first nap might happen only 1.5 hours after waking but bedtime might be 2 hours after the last nap.

My boy, almost 8 months, still can't self settle so I don't have any tips but I'm sure some of the others will have some good points for you! One thing I can think of is putting him down 'drowsy but awake' but I've never had any luck with this. Keep posting, this is a great support group. X
 
Notnic, that sounds so tough for your poor little man. I'm so sorry!!! What a lot to be going through all at the same time. I hope he is on the mend soon and those incisors come through quickly. It amazes me what a tough time some babies have with teeth while others just breeze through it. Big hugs to you and F.

SE, poor munchkin! Has he gone to longer hours now or just the new room? Or both? I hope he settles back into the swing of things. Give him a squeezy hug from me and Culver.

Gaia, good luck with the shots! Bad news about the failed bedtime but wow! Great sleeping by F! That's awesome!

Weirdly Cs sleep has become better. He's back to waking every hour with a few two hour stretches (at least he isn't waking every 10 minutes!!) but no sign of teeth. Does the pain come and go sometimes before teeth appear? It's so strange. I also thought I'd try letting him have a go at self settling at 3am. I fed him until he was drowsy and popped him down. Big mistake! I kept thinking he would get there and he obviously keep thinking mummy would pick him up... Next thing it's 5am! Fail... We did get some practice nursing lying down but he won't nod off like that. I have to rock him to send him to sleep most times.

I just wanted to update on nappies - I got a cloth nappy and a wool cover. The wool cover worked great for leaks. The cloth nappy is awesome but I'm not sure I'm prepared to make the switch now - I really wish we'd got into it earlier. It seems so much nicer on his skin, especially in the heat. Maybe we will switch? I'll need to discuss it with DH. I haven't used cloth for night yet but I've decided to start changing him when he wakes in the night. His nappy is so wet from so much night nursing that its wet against his skin for a lot of the night. He doesn't have a nappy rash but it can't be comfortable. So we did two changes last night. I'm picking times when he is upset and not settling easily anyway .

Oh, one more thing... I just read there is an 8 month sleep regression!!! OMG! Please tell me his sleep is not going to get even worse!! Ha! X
 
Little update from me - Daniel is one on Sunday it's gone so quick some days we have one nap other two naps, bedtime is good not perfect but I can't complain I put his bedtime back an hour to 7:45 an he now sleeps till 6.30 - 7am he does most night wake if he doesn't settle himself I go in pick him up for a couple of mins then straight back down so it's a work in progress but things are definitely getting there now :)
 
missk1989 - I am basically doing gradual withdrawal. Chloe can get really worked up, so I am going to work really hard on putting her down really drowsy at first, with lots of soothing. And if she is having a hard time, I'll probably put a time limit on it (like I did last night), and then pick her up. I think eventually she'll get better at self soothing, but I don't want to push her too much if she isn't quite ready. Sounds like you are having the same kind of rough nights that I am! It's hard to fall back to sleep sometimes! I think you are doing really well if he lets you pat him to sleep. If you were going to do gradual withdrawal, you would just slowly decrease the amount of time you pat him until he doesn't need it anymore.

Keese22 - If I could go back in time - my daughter is 7.5 months, and she still sleeps on me for naps! I would probably start trying one nap a day in his crib. (I'm no expert though!) Also, it might be worth it to start putting him down a little sooner than you usually do at night, until you are putting him down drowsy but not quite asleep.

NotNic - Poor F!!! Glad the chicken pox isn't causing him too much trouble, but that's too much trauma for the little guy! Hope it passes soon!

SE - Poor Munchkin! Daycare is a hard transition, but hopefully he is over the worst of it.

Gaia - Hope the shots didn't make for a horrible night!

Stephie - I like to hope that babies can't hit EVERY regression!!!! Glad Cully is finally giving you some longer stretches. I worry about diaper changes at night too. I use the overnight diapers, but I think it would be very uncomfortable to sit in a heavy wet diaper all night. Yuck.
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Why, when I want to start a different routine, do we start having teething pain every night?? Or last night she had a really stuffy nose, so I just put her in the good old rock 'n play to keep her elevated.

Really rough night, with one 4.5 hour MOTN waking. I tried putting her in her crib during that time. I put her projector on, handed her the wubbanub, and then she rolled around and babbled for 20 minutes. She finally started fussing/crying, then got really worked up. I gave it an hour before picking her up, but by then she was really hard to settle, and it took forever to get her asleep enough to put down. It didn't go so well!

What do you ladies think about using the projector during sleep training? Bad idea?? It only stays on for about 8 minutes and plays some nice, soothing music. I turned it on 7 or 8 times last night when she was in her crib. That was not productive, but I wonder if she would only need it on once after she learns to ss. Maybe I shouldn't use it at all.
 
Now I really have incentive to get her in the crib! I stopped at the daycare over lunch to visit her, and they told me she scooted herself backwards out of her rock 'n play at naptime! She didn't get hurt, thank goodness! They aren't going to use it anymore, and will be back to CIO for her naps to get her used to the crib at daycare. They said she cried for 10 minutes today, then fell asleep on her tummy for 30 minutes.
 
Amy, 4.5 hours?! You poor thing! Please be extra gentle with yourself. It sounds like now is the perfect time to work on the crib for night sleep if daycare is also doing this.

How does she respond to the projector? It could be a useful night cue (during your bedtime routine) but I don't think I'd use it in the middle of the night. It might be too stimulating for her. I think (just my opinion) that night wakings should be kept calm and relaxed with as little stimulation as possible.

Good luck and I'm crossing every finger that tonight is better for you. Once she is taking all of her sleep in the crib I'm sure she will adjust much more quickly.

Big hugs xxx
 
Stephie - I don't think I'd use it for MOTN either. Last night, she was wide awake anyway, and I wasn't thinking clearly, so I kept pushing that darn button to keep it on! Hopefully, things will go quickly since daycare is working on her naps at the same time. I can only hope! Thank goodness tomorrow is Friday - I can just pretend to be awake at work!
 
Aliss, I hope things have calmed down! It always sounds tricky to juggle your three men... :winkwink:

Amy, 4.5 hours?! You poor thing!! :hugs: I really hope things get better. When you do feel up to sleep training, or whatever, I think figuring out what you're willing to do consistently is exactly the right approach. Most babies can adapt to most things (within reason of course) so as long as she learns what to expect, I bet she'll do great. Regarding the projector, I would agree with Stephie that it probably wouldn't be a good idea in the long term. If she were already really used to it that would be one thing, but it doesn't seem like the best thing to introduce now that your routines are in flux.

Gaia, we had late bedtimes at F's age too, although I know he's been on a later schedule for a while. I say go with what works! And definitely don't worry about 5 months from now, that's forever in baby time. Are you still holding F for all his sleep? Were you holding him for those long stretches? I can understand why you are torn about that...I would say it depends on how badly things have been going. If he's chronically sleep deprived unless you hold him, I don't see how you'll be able to work on things anyway, so you may as well hold him...but if he's doing ok without being held then I would consider sticking it out. But of course it's up to you.

Stephie, don't feel too guilty about giving pain medication! :hugs: You are really trying to balance things. Of course it's hard to do that perfectly, especially when they can't talk to us, but the fact that it helped his sleep suggests to me that he really was uncomfortable. It's not as if getting sleep isn't important for his long-term health too, you know? I hope you keep having some better nights! And that the teeth are through really soon!!!
Regarding diapers, I don't know what kind you got (pockets?) but we never had any luck using just cloth at night. If you are going to change him anyway, it may work for you. I'm glad the wool cover is working well!
I think the 8 month regression has a lot to do with motor milestones. Cully's already crawling and pulling up, so it may not be as bad for you. Here's hoping!

Polaris, every 20 minutes is brutal!!! :hugs: Poor you guys! We have a dose of ibuprofen ready in LO's room every night in case he needs it during the night...think someone on this thread suggested that. I've only actually used that dose two or three times, but it helps to know it's there in case I need it (probably actually reduces how much I medicate at bedtime because I don't feel like that's my only chance). I really hope last night was better!

Missk, what is LO's schedule like during the day? Could he be overtired (or undertired)? Regarding sleep training, it sounds like CIO might be a good option for you, or CC with long intervals. Or send OH in if you think his presence would be less upsetting. I would encourage you to try going past 45 minutes if you are comfortable with that (well, as comfortable as one can be). I know it sounds horrible but they really can sometimes calm themselves down even after screaming for that long. And if he does manage to learn how to self-settle, he'll gradually be able to do it in less and less time, even if it took him over 45 minutes the first time.

Keese, anywhere from 3 to 5 naps is good at that age, and a wake time of around 1.5-2 hours. Short naps are likely to lengthen on their own in a couple of months as he drops to 2 and lengthens his wake times. In terms of self-settling, I think it might help to just familiarize yourself with different methods so you know what different options are out there. Mybabysleepguide is one website that covers different methods, and I'm sure others on this thread could suggest other resources. Hang in there, I know that 4 month regression is awful :hugs:

Vikki, happy almost birthday Daniel! :cake: sounds like things are going great!!

AFM, still waiting out this transition. He's changing both classroom and schedule this week. I've been staying with him all morning to play with him in his new room, and then leaving in the afternoon as usual. He's made a lot of progress already, but he's still not his usual self. He's clearly getting overtired, because he can't ever extend his naps. And it is affecting his nighttime sleep now. I'm sure he just needs to gets used to the new space. I should count my blessings -- at least he's going to sleep there at all, and taking bottles pretty well. Stay away, curse.
 
Seaweed eater- don't think he is over or under tired. He usually has 2-3 hours nap in two naps finishing no more than 4 hours before bedtime. He has a routine no more than 15 mins or he is crying for bed. I'm pretty sure the problem is that he can't self settle so cc or CIO may work but I'm not sure i can do it especially with oh saying he doesn't like it. I'm going to talk to the HV about it I think.
 
Hi everyone.

I've been quite busy over the last couple of days so I haven't been around much. Clara is still waking up a lot during the night, it is definitely teething pain. She is quite dramatic, she has a really high pitched cry, OH described it as sounding like somebody was pulling out her teeth, I pointed out that this kind of is not too far removed from what is happening to her, poor thing. She definitely suffers a lot more with teething than Thomas did.

Notnic - you have my sympathies with both the chicken pox and teething. At least the chicken pox isn't too bad though.

Keese - welcome to the thread. I hope the dreaded 4 month regression passes quickly for you hun.

Vikki - sounds like Daniel is sleeping really well now! :happydance:

Gaia - wow that was an amazing long stretch of sleep! I actually wouldn't know what to think if Clara ever slept that long! Really hope it's the start of a new pattern for you guys.

Amy - :hugs: 4.5 hours in the middle of the night is really no fun at all, you poor thing. I agree with the others about the projector. Scary about the rock and play but at least she wasn't hurt, definitely time to get her used to sleeping in the crib though! Hope the teeth have settled down a bit now and you have a better night tonight.

Seaweed, it definitely sounds like he has a lot going on with all the changes. I guess there's not much you can do except give him a bit of time to adjust. As you say, at least he is managing to get to sleep in the new environment, hopefully longer naps will come with time. I hate it when they are clearly getting overtired and their overall sleep pattern starts to suffer. :hugs:

Steph - good news that Cully is sleeping a little better. I am always so much more positive about everything when Clara has a stretch of somewhat better nights - even if our good nights would be other people's bad nights. LOL. I don't think every baby has a sleep regression at 8 months. I don't think we ever really recovered from the four month sleep regression so we didn't really have any further to regress.

Regarding cloth nappies - I used disposables with Thomas but have used cloth from birth with Clara. I actually really regret not switching to cloth with Thomas after the first six months or so when I had found my feet a bit. If you have more children you will be able to reuse the nappies so it really is never too late to switch. I do think cloth nappies would be more comfortable in the heat, apparently they are a couple of degrees cooler than disposables.
 
Seaweed eater- don't think he is over or under tired. He usually has 2-3 hours nap in two naps finishing no more than 4 hours before bedtime. He has a routine no more than 15 mins or he is crying for bed. I'm pretty sure the problem is that he can't self settle so cc or CIO may work but I'm not sure i can do it especially with oh saying he doesn't like it. I'm going to talk to the HV about it I think.

Missk - sorry I missed your post. Your LO sounds a bit like Clara. She really has an aversion to the cot and much prefers to sleep in bed with me. I have no advice for you because I ended up giving up on trying to get her into the cot and am full-time cosleeping with her now. You could definitely try CC but to be honest I think it would be very hard if not impossible without the support of your OH so I think you would need to get him on board with whatever approach you decide on.
 
Missk, your routine sounds perfect. Your OH's opinion does put you in a tight spot :hugs: if you are leaning toward CC or CIO, though, the HV will probably back you up, based on what I've heard about HVs, so maybe that will help him come around? You do both need to be committed to it, though, or at least tolerant of it.
 
Thanks SE, he definitely was NOT held for the 6 hour stretch! Lol, my arms would fall off! I put him to bed at 9:30 in his room, brought him to our bed at 11 and he stayed asleep next to me until 3:30. I've only been holding him for naps and a few evenings. Mostly my reason was to get his 2 naps a bit longer, and also because I don't have the new twin mattress yet so putting him down in his room is uncomfortable on a crib mattress lol.

I think when the room is all properly set up with the twin ill try to get him back in there.

Shots yesterday, so last night was fine, 3/4 hour stretches but no 6!
 
Amy, how did your night go? I hope the crib worked well- actually I think you're just approaching your night, so good luck if that's the case!

SE... You are so thoughtful. I love that you are staying with him in the mornings to ease the transition. Are the sleeping conditions in the new room different to what he is used to? Or is it just the new faces? I hope Munchkin adapts quickly and starts taking longer naps... Would the daycare staff help him back to sleep for a little while until he gets used to it? I do hope you are right about the 8 month sleep regression! So do you use cloth during the day and disposables at night? I suspect this is where we are headed (with our wool cover of course!).

Polaris, big hugs to little Clara!! Poor baby! She sounds like she is suffering so much!! Thanks for the encouragement to use cloth nappies. I'm quite excited now and am going to buy some more today. DH is on board - he still doesn't believe me they will be cooler than disposables but he thinks they will be more comfortable and better for our little man.

Can I just take a self indulgent moment and say how great my DH is? He has been so open minded about bed sharing, breastfeeding past 6 months, baby wearing and now cloth nappies. They are all things he is not used to seeing and I'm proud of him.

Missk, good luck with the HV and your sleep training decision hon.

Gaia, F is sleeping so well! I hope this continues for both of you! And yes, I imagine it would be hard to nurse him down on your cot mattress! Lol.

Notnic, I hope things have improved for you guys. Thinking of you.

We had a pretty bad night. It started with him fighting bedtime for 1.5 hours, finally falling asleep at 730 and waking at 8pm with a huge nappy leak. Poor monkey! His pjs were soaked. So we had to strip him down to his birthday suit and that woke him up completely and it was pretty downhill from there. We'll get there eventually!!

Has anyone seen any teeth!?!
 
I really wish I hadn't let Munchkin's teachers talk me into doing full-time and the classroom change at the same time. :( It really is not going well. Last night in under 9 1/2 hours of sleep he woke up 3 times and was wide awake at 4:30. I left him in bed until 5:45 and he didn't even try to go back to sleep. That's a grand total of 10 1/2 hours of sleep in the last 24. And I did give pain relief last night. I think I'm going to keep him home for his morning nap for a week or two while he gets used to the new environment and to taking his afternoon nap there.

This is going to make me into one of those parents teachers complain about who won't entertain anyone else's opinion about their kid! :haha:

More in a bit :sleep:
 
Gaia - I hold Chloe for naps too. If I didn't, she would only sleep for 30 minutes at a time. I think once I get these nights sorted out, I will try a nap in the crib now and then. I definitely don't mind the snuggles!

missk - I agree, whatever approach you decide, you really should have the hubby on board!

Stephie - What a rough night! I have no diaper leaking advice - so far we've been lucky. So glad your hubby is on board with everything - he is very lucky to have you though! No teeth here yet!
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Last night, I told DH to take the Rock 'N Play away - we aren't using it anymore! She spent all night in her crib, but she did wake up every 45 minutes or every hour. I was so proud of her though! She is doing so much better with the crib than she did even 3 weeks ago!

As for sleep training - since they are doing straight CIO at daycare, I decided to start off a little more gently, because she isn't used to sleeping in the crib all night yet, and she has a stuffy nose again - crying will only make that worse!

I still fed her to sleep, but I put her down right away instead of rocking her for 20 minutes like I usually do. For her night wakings, I either patted her in her crib, or rocked her for a few minutes before putting her back down. I also gave her her lovey every time she woke up, to hopefully associate the lovey with going to sleep. And I waited out her fussing to see if she would put herself back to sleep, and she did a few times.

One thing that really surprised me - her night wakings were so much calmer than they have been! She usually fights me and takes a while to settle, but last night, she calmed quickly if I picked her up, and she was easy to pat to sleep when I tried.

Trying not to bring on the BnB curse by saying this, but I think she's ready this time for the crib and to settle on her own!

Tonight, I think I will do things the same way, since her nose is still pretty stuffy. If she starts getting better by tomorrow, then I will probably try more settling in the crib when she wakes.

Baby steps...
 
Great news Amy! Night wakings are soooo much better when they're quick and painless!

SE I think that's a good plan, I would/will sooooo be the same parent. And why not? You know munchkin better than anyone and you deal with the fallout at night, not them! Changes are hard for babes with no words to express or understand. Follow your gut!

Stephie - Your hubby sounds great! Mine has been awesome too, just wants to do whatever works and is best for F. Health Canada recommends BFing to age 2, which I hope to do and he is totally on board! Besides, how the hell would we get him to sleep otherwise! Lol

Tried bedtime when he was clearly tired at 7:30, in his room. He nursed/slept for 30 min and when I tried to unlatch he woke up happy and ready to play. Argh. Seems no matter where/how I try and put him to bed this happens.

Went to sleep at 9:30 and slept until 8am. Wake ups more frequent last night, but not terrible.

Sighhhhhh, what to do with my night owl!?

Maybe the time change in Nov will correct him even if he doesn't change by then? Lol
 
Gaia, I would just go with a later bedtime for the moment. My guess is that he will naturally move earlier over the next few months.

Amy - you sound a lot more relaxed about everything, it sounds like Chloe is really making progress at self-settling too!

Stephie, your night sounds awful. :hugs: Hope you have a better night tonight. How frustrating to get a nappy leak so early in the night! Could it be the fit of the nappies not suiting him - I think I would maybe try a different brand/size. Your DH sounds so lovely and supportive - it really makes such a difference.

Seaweed, I'm so sorry to hear how much Munchkin is struggling at the moment. I think you are right to follow your instincts about what is best for him. You know him best and his teachers just are never going to be as tuned in to him as you are. So I think you should do what works for him and stuff what anyone else thinks!

Tonight was the first night in about two weeks that I did bedtimes on my own (we were away for a week and then OH has been off work this week too). It didn't go too well. Clara has just been taking ages to get settled over the past few days which is OK when OH is here but not great when I'm on my own with the two of them. Every time I thought she was settling and snuck out, she was awake crying again a couple of minutes later. I know that she just wants me there when she's falling asleep because she doesn't do that if I lie down beside her when she's going to sleep. But sometimes it's been taking an hour to get her properly settled and I can't leave Thomas alone for that long obviously. I don't really know what to do. I think maybe I should just not let him nap on the days that OH won't be here in the evening so that I can put him to bed before Clara and then have as long as I need to get her settled. But it seems so unfair on him because he still gets quite tired and cranky without a nap. Arghh what to do!!
 
Polaris, thanks. I am just going to go with it and I think when his new bed arrives it could get better. Just unfortunate to not get my couch and tv baby free veg time :)

I agree you need Thomas in bed first nights like that...tough call on how that could happen. Are their bedtimes fairly close? What's better, keeping Clara up or making Thomas go to bed earlier?
 
SE I definitely think you've made the right call. Munchkin is obviously a sensitive and intelligent boy and some babies just need longer to adapt to things. Taking it on his time can only be a good thing.

Amy, what great news! I'm sorry she was waking so frequently. You must be so so exhausted. But it's great that you are seeing real progress and she seems to be getting used to her crib. Hopefully the time between wakings will extend and you'll manage to get some sleep yourself!

Gaia, it must be tough not having any downtime. I really struggle mentally on nights I don't get at least an hour in the evenings just to sit and stare at the TV or to go on the Internet! TV can be good for the tired mummy's soul sometimes! I think you said you were doing 2.5, 3.5, 3.5 right? You could always try and increase his wake times just ever so slightly and see if it makes a difference? But if you're happy to have him up, no need to do a thing of course!

Polaris, that's such a tough one! How heavy is Thomas? Could you combine their bedtimes? Maybe put them both to sleep at the same time on the futon - sing and snuggle together and then snuggle Thomas while you nurse Clara (not quite sure how that would work? He could snuggle into you maybe) and lie with them both before transferring Thomas.

I'm feeling a bit down about breastfeeding at the moment. C has started biting and fighting me and I can't stop the nursing session because he only feeds to sleep! He's desperate to nurse and then bites. He's also thrashing around and slapping and pulling hair... I wonder if his awake time needs to be extended?! Up until the last few days he has been calm and relaxed and fed to sleep really easily. Do you think this is just a teething thing? He wants to bite on everything at the moment! I love breastfeeding, so I really hope this is just a phase that passes quickly!

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