Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[stephie_corin]

Amy! Congratulations on the crib sleeping! That's awesome! You really should feel so proud of yourself and of Chloe!

SE, breastfeeding is going pretty well. No changes for the worse! He still has three solid day feeds (before naps and bedtime) and every third day or so I can convince him to take a small feed. I realised his day feeds are 4+ hours apart and his night feeds are 1.5 hours - 45 minutes apart. Doh! Hopefully once he starts eating more he will cut back on night feeding. We still get the odd biting incident but I'm finding the unlatch, count to 10 technique pretty helpful.

I understand why you don't want to sleep in Munchkin's room. I don't have any helpful suggestions so I'll just offer hugs and hope this period passes soon for you both.

Noelle, I think out bodies are set to wakeup at roughly the same time if we make a habit of regularly getting up at a set time. Haven't you woken at 7am on a weekend (or whenever your usual alarm time is), even without the alarm? I find this always happens when you're desperate for a sleep-in maybe the same applies to babies?

Polaris, I like your approach of putting Clara down at the same time for naps. It seems like a really good way to regulate her sleep. I've been wondering (if you go by waketime alone) how the baby gets a chance to adjust for tired days. If 10 of every 24 hours are spent awake, even longer naps won't help the baby catch up on sleep. So maybe regular nap times based on approximate waketimes would get around this. Baby could then take longer or shorter naps as they need on a day to day basis. I might try something similar, although Cully's first morning wake up can vary quite a bit still.

Bababas, can you write out your whole routine during the day? At first glance it looks like your LO could be overtired. Bedtime looks too late and you could be keeping him up too long between naps. Three hours is also very long for a nap. He could be getting too much day sleep. Let us know your routine. I'm sure there will be some helpful comments. I'm sorry you are struggling so much.

We are going on holiday in a little over a week and to say I am nervous about naps and night sleep is a huge understatement! I've actually been lying in bed worrying about what time to wake him up, how can I get him to nap in the car/plane etc! I need to relax and just go with the flow. Easier said than done!

I'm hoping everyone has a good night!

 

[gaiagirl]

Bababas - around 4 months is a VERY tough time for sleep for a lot of babies. Months 4-7 were pretty terrible for us, but bedsharing really really helped. If its working for you (at least better) then don't worry about what others say.

Not sure about 2 naps at 4 months, that's pretty young. I found my LO could only be awake 2 hours at that age so definitely needed 3 sometimes 4 naps!

Stephie - do you have a carrier? Baby wearing and travel go hand in hand

 

[seaweed eater]

Polaris, thanks for sharing what you did with your son. Munchkin sounds like both of your children in different ways but often more like your son! I hope it's not a few months of this before we can go back to the way things were this past month. I'm tired I'm glad bedtime went more smoothly for you!

Bababas, I agree with what Stephie and Gaia have said so far. Bedsharing isn't a problem on its own -- I would focus more on getting into a good routine. So it would be helpful if you could share your usual daytime schedule.

Stephie, I wish I had advice for you about travel, but we have a trip planned too in a few months and I'm totally dreading it, largely for the same reasons. I think you are right that you will just have to go with the flow. You know all the tricks already so I'm sure you will do the best you can in the moment.

Also, to your question for Polaris about BTC naps, I tend to do something in between. I try not to have a WT much shorter than three hours, or he is unlikely to take a long nap -- and much longer than three hours he starts to get really cranky -- but I also aim for approximately 9 AM. The effect this has is basically to reduce the variance from his wake-up time...he can be up anytime from 5 to 7 but the nap almost always starts between 8:30 and 9:30. And if he was up reasonably close to 6, I just try for 9 exactly. That has worked well for us. Does that make sense?

We've had a difficult 24 hours. Nursed every 60-90 mins last night. Good nap this morning but then awake 4.5 hours and had a lot of trouble going down. I suspect bedtime will be too late tonight. There's still a lot of room for things to get worse, but they do seem to be heading that way. Not sure how much longer I can sustain this if it continues. I have no idea how some of you do it for weeks!

 

[gaiagirl]

Hugs SE xxxx every 60-90 is rough! Teeth!? That's my go to, hahahahahah.

 

[seaweed eater]

Thanks It could be teeth! But I know better than to get my hopes up. Two in one week would be a pretty big week...

 

[stephie_corin]

Ah SE! Hugs!!!! You poor thing!!! C wakes very frequently but I'm sure my body has adjusted to it. I think you feel worse when you suddenly have a night of frequent wakings because its such a shock to your system. Did you try pain relief to see if it helped? What a tough time for both of you. How's his walking etc., going? Could it be developmental? I'm so sorry my dear friend.

SE I really like your nap approach. That sounds perfect for us. What do you do if Munchkin sleeps past 6am? Just say he sleeps until 7 - would you do nap at 10 or is 930 the latest you aim for a nap?

Gaia, yep we have a vast array of wraps and carriers. Do you think woven wrap or ergo for the trip? He hasn't slept in a carrier for a long time but I'm hopeful he will at least be able to take short naps. He spends time in them everyday so he's used to being in the carrier. He has not slept anywhere but our bed, in a quiet bedroom, for months now! Rods and backs and all that...

 

[gaiagirl]

Well, F is a picky sleeper too but when tired he will sleep in a carrier after 5-10min of fussing and bouncing/swaying. A woven is so much comfier IMO but F sleeps in his Beco/ergo too.

SE they often do come in close together!

AFM - Arg not a weekend of good evenings. He's been up LATE both nights and its definitely getting me down how much of my time between 7-10 pm is spent on trying and failing to get him to sleep

 

[stephie_corin]

Gaia, I'm so sorry! Is he taking long naps now? Has anything else changed in his routine? Are you putting him down in his room or still out in the living room?

 

[gaiagirl]

Today he had two 1.5 hour naps on me, and tried his bedroom for evening. Wed and Thurs night went so well in his room! Got my hopes up Fri and Sat both sucked.

Feels like there's no rhyme or reason. Naps don't seem to have any impact!

 

[polaris]

Good morning everyone.
Just a very quick post, I just wanted to share my AMAZING news! Clara went to sleep at 8.15 p.m. last night and slept on her own (on the futon) until, wait for it, 2.15 a.m.!!! That is a six hour stretch! I think that is her personal best! The rest of the night was pretty good too, just a couple of short wakings and we got up at 7! Wow, it would be great if this continues!

Sorry to hear that several of you are having a tough time at the moment, will come back later to reply to other people's posts.

 

[stephie_corin]

Gaia I'm so sorry! Hang in there. He's shown you he can sleep in his room in the evenings so just keep persevering!

Polaris, yay for your amazing news! That really is amazing! I'm so happy for you!

 

[bababas]

Bababas, can you write out your whole routine during the day? At first glance it looks like your LO could be overtired. Bedtime looks too late and you could be keeping him up too long between naps. Three hours is also very long for a nap. He could be getting too much day sleep. Let us know your routine. I'm sure there will be some helpful comments. I'm sorry you are struggling so much.

Bababas - around 4 months is a VERY tough time for sleep for a lot of babies. Months 4-7 were pretty terrible for us, but bedsharing really really helped. If its working for you (at least better) then don't worry about what others say.

Not sure about 2 naps at 4 months, that's pretty young. I found my LO could only be awake 2 hours at that age so definitely needed 3 sometimes 4 naps!

Bababas, I agree with what Stephie and Gaia have said so far. Bedsharing isn't a problem on its own -- I would focus more on getting into a good routine. So it would be helpful if you could share your usual daytime schedule.

thank you ladies.

i agree, i should prolly not try to make him nap longer. it is a habit of us when he was younger, coz then he would be so grumpy and would wanna nap again. and so i let him nap more. but he is older now, so i prolly should just wake him up when he wakes for his nap for a drink?

TODAY was a good night, even though i tried again to put him in his crib! which did not end well. but napping in it he has no problem. why is that? i dont get it. haha.

after i finally calmed him down coz i tried to put him in his crip he woke
00:30
03:30
05:30 from here until 8:30 he was grumpy coz of his teeth, he wanted to use boobie. still i feel well rested.


Our usual schedule has been.

wake 8:00
nap 9:30-11 (it seems now he can be awake 2hrs though) (sometimes the naps are shorter, sometimes i feed him to make him nap longer. bad?)

nap 1pm or 12 til 3pm. (i make him nap longer here too with nursing. im gonna stop this one, stopped it yesterday so he napped 1pm-2:30pm)

nap 5pm or 6pm 40mins nap. when his bro comes home from playschool he is so excited he wont nap right away.

sleep 8:30pm more or less.

anything weird you see? well he is teething also, two teeth coming at ones.

 

[seaweed eater]

Polaris that is wonderful!!! I hope you get many more of those!!

Gaia, I'm sorry about your crummy evenings if you're not doing anything differently, maybe WW37? Ugh. Hang in there!

Stephie, 9:45 is probably the latest I'd ever try to start the first nap. Maybe even 9:30. A solid nap at 10 or later starts making a good bedtime unlikely (as insane as it sounds to say that ). Of course, it's possible for him to fall asleep after 10 despite my intentions. If that happens, I try to wake him by 11 or after 40 minutes, whichever's later, or something like that.

Bababas, a couple things I notice. First, that's a ton of daytime sleep, even for a 4-month-old, and second, the wake times are a little inconsistent. It sounds like the nap durations can be inconsistent too. I would just work on making things more consistent and, as you said, not encouraging him to nap for so long. So for example something like
8 awake
10-11:30 nap
1:30-3 nap
5-5:40 nap
8 asleep.
That way the WTs are more consistent at (mostly) 2 hours, which is age-appropriate, and none of the naps are too long. It's still a lot of daytime sleep at over 3.5 hours but that's much better than the ~6 it seems you sometimes get now.

Also, I really would just give up on the crib at nighttime if you aren't willing to be consistent about it. Sometimes they like different things at nighttime and naps...it's strange, I agree, but actually not abnormal for babies.

AFM, Munchkin was up at 4:10 today, exhausted but unable to go back to sleep I just don't really understand. No teeth, but we did give pain relief and he had longer stretches before that so maybe it is teething? (Gaia, I know they tend to come in twos, but the one he just got was his second bottom one so I don't think there's any reason a top one should follow right away.) Also he essentially cluster nursed for part of yesterday so that's consistent with teething too. Or maybe it's milestones? There's a ton he's working on but he always acquires things so gradually (teeth too!), it's hard to tell...

 

[polaris]

Seaweed, that really sounds rough especially after having had such good nights when you were doing the sleep training. What way is he when he wakes so frequently during the night? Is there any possibility of settling him without boob, even for some of the wakings? (I nurse Clara at every waking so obviously feel free to ignore this suggestion, LOL, but with Thomas I used to only nurse him if he clearly wasn't settling any other way).

By the way, your approach of using a combination of wake-times and by-the-clock is pretty much exactly what I am doing - except that you explained it much better than me!

Gaia - that's frustrating when things go bad again after having improved. But I always try to remind myself that at least there are some better nights/evenings now, whereas previously they were all bad! What time are you trying for bedtime now? I've recently changed Clara's bedtime to 8 p.m. (which is a 4 hour wake-time) and it seems to be helping her to settle quicker.

Bababas - I think Seaweed has given you good advice on trying to get into a more regular routine with more consistent wake-times across the day. I know it can be hard to manage on a practical level when you have more than one child though. Do you have constrictions around your daily routine with his older brother (e.g. playschool drop-offs/collections), I know you mentioned he won't settle immediately after his brother gets home which is understandable. It's great that he will nap in the crib, even if he doesn't like it at bedtime. I would stick to the crib for naps and maybe just bedshare at night times if that works better.

Seaweed and Steph - I used to dread holidays with Thomas because I worried so much about taking him out of his routine and making sure he got naps on the journey. Honestly, it was always easier than I expected/predicted. Thomas was a very fussy sleeper and needed everything just exactly right, but actually he always managed to sleep at some point on the journey, usually on my lap once the airplane engines started. I definitely second the recommendation to bring a comfy carrier but if you are flying make sure that you are able to put it on and off easily as you will have to take it off to go through security and they generally ask you to take baby out of the carrier for the flight too (although I can't see how they wouldn't be safer in the carrier than just with those baby seatbelts). I don't get stressed at all really about travelling with Clara - I figure if I got through it OK with Thomas then she is just not going to be a problem at all. She is much easier to travel with than Thomas because she is generally more adaptable and doesn't really care about routines - she also doesn't generally get cranky even if she's shattered. I do remember how stressed I used to get before journeys with Thomas though. But somehow it always worked out well. We only ever had one bad flight with him but that was when he was older, he was a couple of days after his second birthday and because he was two they wouldn't let him sit on my lap and insisted he sit on his own seat with the seatbelt. He was literally hysterical. I begged the air hostess to just give me a baby seatbelt and warned her that he would cry the whole time and she just shrugged and said "oh babies cry all the time on flights, it's OK". !!! I was so upset because Thomas wasn't even that well and he was just so so upset by it. For the return flight we spent the week preparing him for what would happen and he was fine. That was the only bad experience we ever had.

 

[gaiagirl]

Thanks ladies! I have been doing 3.5/4 hour WT and bed at 7:30/8 and some nights it's great others its a huge fail. So unpredictable. It's currently 8:15am and DH and I are up and at em and he is still sleeping.

I know that's bad, ill wake him in a few min but arggggggg!

Polaris - Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you sleep with her or in your room for that stretch?

SE - Oh! You already have two then I dunno! I hope things get back on track for you.

Bababas - those three naps look good, I agree with SEs comments too.

Alright well...guess ill wake him up and hope for something better today. I feel a bit useless like nothing I try helps. Not sure what to do next. I'm almost tempted to sleep starve him and do 2 short naps and make sure he's exhausted at 7pm. I know it goes against all advice but honestly those 'experts' never seem to be right for this baby!

 

[polaris]

Gaiagirl - sounds like it could be worth a try? Clara seems to do better with shorter naps e.g. 2 naps of 1 hour each even though she will happily nap for much longer.

To answer your question, Clara was in the room by herself for that long stretch, I actually went to bed in my own bed for once! She usually always wakes up by about 10 or 10.30 so I just go to bed at that stage and go in with her. If she wakes earlier or I'm going to bed later I go to bed in my own bed and go into her when she wakes. I prefer going to bed in my own bed because I like reading for a bit before I go to sleep but usually I'm only in there for about half an hour before I have to go in to her. Fingers crossed for a repeat performance tonight but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[stephie_corin]

Bababas, SE gives excellent advice. Good luck - please keep us updated.

SE, I'm so sorry you are having such a rough time. Hang in there sweetie.

Gaia - go for it! I will totally be doing the same if it works for you. We have textbook perfect days, but nights are still bad!

Polaris - I hadn't appreciated that Clara slept BY HERSELF!!! That's doubly amazing. Thanks for the reassurance with travel. I know I've already asked your advice previously so you must be sick of hearing me complain that story about Thomas is awful! Poor boy!!

So it's been 2.5 hours since bedtime. Wee man keeps waking crying. Next wakeup I'm going to give pain relief. He is drooling and chewing on erything, the teeth must be close!!

 

[stephie_corin]

I am not feeling confident about tonight. I can't even decide if I should give iboprufen or paracetamol ... Lol. And I have to hang out my wet cloth nappies once he ever gets out of my arms. Only down side to switching from disposables is the late night hang out...!

 

[gaiagirl]

How often do you wash? I have enough that I can wash every 2-3 days (actually longer but I don't go longer) and start early in the day on wash day...

 

[stephie_corin]

Hi Gaia! I'm only on about day 5 of cloth nappies so it's still pretty exciting doing the wash every day ... I moan in jest I think I need to get a closed bucket too before I start going longer than 1 day? I've got lots of nappies now but I'm still experimenting with combinations. I need to buy some more boosters too. While DH was away I cut up one of his hiking micro-fleece jumpers into fleece liners. Lol. He's been too busy at work to notice yet.