Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[seaweed eater]

Stephie, give ibuprofen! And get yourself a closed bucket!! Hmm, I'm full of advice today really though, we just use a trash can with a wet bag in it, and that works well for washing every few days. I really hope the rest of your night improves and that those teeth finally make an appearance!!!!

Polaris, thank you for sharing your experiences traveling with your son. It's really encouraging to hear that things went better than you feared for the most part despite his temperament. Although that one story is so sad as if your only concern about him crying was what other people would think! Poor Thomas.

Maybe I should try settling Munchkin without boob more often during the night. I always give it a few minutes before I even go into his room, and then I wait until it seems like he's getting really frustrated. But he does get frustrated about 90% of the time. I just feel like I shouldn't leave him for long unless I'm willing to really put my foot down. If we're in WIO mode, there's no reason to endure that much crying or, moreover, to reward him for it. KWIM? He's obviously just sucking for comfort. Usually he calms down right away and doesn't eat much before he's ready to go back to bed. This morning was unusual -- he actually fell asleep twice but woke up a few minutes later and got increasingly upset each time. By the end he didn't want to nurse anymore and if I sat him on the floor he'd just throw himself backward. The only thing that consoled him eventually was when I put him in the carrier and walked around in the dark singing to him, as if he were 6 weeks old. That's the only time it has really seemed developmental, like he just couldn't wind down despite being so tired. Other than that he hasn't really been fighting sleep, just needing more help.

I would certainly love to hear any thoughts or ideas from any of you about what I could do differently! I feel like I've kind of forgotten how to WIO!

 

[polaris]

Stephie - I'm so glad that the switch to cloth nappies is going well. LOL at cutting up hubby's jumper to make liners! We have a bucket with a lid and wash probably every second day although I could get away with washing less often now that the weather is better for drying. I hope those teeth break through soon. Still no sign of any new ones here.

SE - I think you're right, if you are waiting it out then definitely easier to properly wait it out rather than still holding on to the wish to change things. In that vein, maybe you should go in to him quicker rather than waiting for him to become frustrated. Ha, I think that probably contradicts my earlier "advice"! LOL. Seriously though, to me, what you are describing does sound developmental or a reaction to all the changes with daycare etc, it sounds like he is just really looking for extra comfort and reassurance. So maybe the best thing to do if you are waiting it out is to just embrace that need and make a commitment to providing the extra reassurance that he needs at the moment - maybe by providing a prompt response he will feel more secure and this phase will pass more quickly?

 

[seaweed eater]

Thanks I think I'll try that for the next 24 hours at least and see how it goes. He does SS so it's just hard to let go of hope that he will go back to sleep on his own. But maybe things would go more smoothly if I went to him right away. No way to know unless I try it.

Edit: what do you think I should do when I nurse him and put him down and he's not ready to fall asleep yet? This has been an issue recently -- he is very drowsy while nursing but then cries when I put him down, until I pick him up and nurse again. There's no way to put him down asleep so I just have to keep doing that until he settles. I guess maybe pick him up after a couple minutes, as a rule?

 

[bababas]

Bababas, a couple things I notice. First, that's a ton of daytime sleep, even for a 4-month-old, and second, the wake times are a little inconsistent. It sounds like the nap durations can be inconsistent too. I would just work on making things more consistent and, as you said, not encouraging him to nap for so long. So for example something like
8 awake
10-11:30 nap
1:30-3 nap
5-5:40 nap
8 asleep.
That way the WTs are more consistent at (mostly) 2 hours, which is age-appropriate, and none of the naps are too long. It's still a lot of daytime sleep at over 3.5 hours but that's much better than the ~6 it seems you sometimes get now.

Also, I really would just give up on the crib at nighttime if you aren't willing to be consistent about it. Sometimes they like different things at nighttime and naps...it's strange, I agree, but actually not abnormal for babies.

thank you so much. that must be it that he is getting too much day time sleep. since he seemed to sleep better yesterday. just time flew by so quickly i didnt realize he was 4 months and needed less day time sleep also the cold he had for 3 weeks didnt help either. thank god thats over.
tanx again ladies.

one question.

what should i do if he doenst nap for 1.5 hours? should i bf him to nap more? (doesnt always work) like what if he would only nap for 30 mins? then the whole schedule shifts. i have been lucky though, that if he is awake in the morning for 2 hrs, he has napped 1.5 hour. but today in the afternoon he only napped 45mins, so i bf him to nap another 45mins. is this bad? if it doenst work then the whole day schedule is scewed...

ps his two teeth are almost there, i bet 2-3 more days. so i hope the sleep will get better then. mmm

 

[gaiagirl]

Stephie that's hilarious about the fleece. We have a Rubbermaid can with a pail liner and a hanging wetbag. I like both. I keep both open though and I find its MUCH better for odour than keeping them closed! Circulation is key

SE totally sounds like he just needs contact for comfort! I would just try not to worry about SS but then to me, it's a developmental milestone like any other and progress ebbs and flows before finally getting there one day. I know it's hard to step back after progress though!

Bababas I would decide what you think LO needs. Sometimes after 40min I nurse or rock my LO back to sleep if he's still cranky, but sometimes I just accept that as the nap and move on. You could try and see what happens? It's such a trial and error thing, you just have to watch LO for cues and see how they respond!

And then of course 2 weeks later they need something different. Hahahahahah. Oh babies.

Well, today was a mess for naps, which I don't care about because evenings CAN'T get worse. Ha.

Nap 1: attempted to leave him in his room so I could get ready to go out. Nope. Fail. 20 min nap.

Nap 2: three hours later after heading downtown to the Pride Day parade and fest, he crashed in the carrier amidst INTENSE crowds and noise, lol.

Nap 3: now at 5pm because he is so clearly tired and won't make it to 7.

Sighhhh. Oh well!

 

[gaiagirl]

On a positive note he was a perfect angel all day and made our busy, long outing really fun!

 

[mellyboo]

It's been so hot here I can't get her to sleep till around 10-11 then she hardly wakes up till 8am .... Honestly I have no idea it's wearing me down how difficult she's being to go to bed we never had a issue but then can you blame her it's soon warm we are buying another a/c this week hopefully that helps and we have are routine back.

 

[gaiagirl]

That was me last night melly! He slept 10-8, maybe partly the heat...

It's gonna be a looooong summer! Lol

 

[seaweed eater]

Don't worry Gaia, it sounds like F is capable of sleeping relatively late in the mornings...embrace it! The only reason I worry about a late bedtime is that Munchkin just never sleeps in very late. I'm glad you had a good outing!

I only care about SS because it's the only way he'll go to sleep now. If he falls asleep nursing he usually gets upset when I transfer him, and there's no way to transfer him asleep. I think at daycare they rock him and transfer him asleep but he won't let me rock him. Also in general I care about it because he tends to sleep better the more awake he is when he goes into bed, but that doesn't seem to have been true of the past couple weeks.

Bababas, if you can extend a short nap then I would do it, but if not, don't worry about it. Plenty of babies that age nap for only 30-40 minutes (mine still does sometimes and there's no way to extend his naps). You may need a fourth nap on those days, which is fine. The important thing (IMO) is to preserve the wake times, and also if possible the total daytime sleep (not too much, not too little). I hope that helps. Good luck! I hope those teeth come in soon, we're waiting for some here too!!

 

[stephie_corin]

SE good luck with the next 24 hours! If Cully nurses but isn't properly asleep I just hold him and jiggle him until he falls asleep. I know you said he won't let you rock him and you'd prefer to keep him SS so this probably doesn't help you. You're stuck in a funny place where WIO isn't really an option (because you can't help him all the way to sleep) and sleep training isn't an option. I'd just keep responding as sensitively as possible, which I'm sure you are already doing. You're a wonderful mummy and Munchkin is lucky to have you. This WILL pass eventually and you guys will get back on track.

Polaris, how is Thomas going with his nap? Is he still in with daddy or is he back in his own room? How was last night with Clara?

Bababas, try to keep a flexible approach to bedtime if you can. If LO takes short naps, just put him down earlier to bed. Good luck! In my opinion it's not bad to breastfeed him back to sleep. I do this for most naps!

Gaia, I'm glad you had a great day! F's naps sound terrible so I'm glad he was an angel for you! Lol! Maybe you can try out your new sleep starve approach tonight! Although a nap at 5 might mean a late bedtime?! I hope the evening goes smoothly for you sweetie.

Melly, sorry you are having tough nights.

Thanks for all the advice on cloth diapers. I'll try washing every second day and see how we go. DH was watching me this morning as I put Cully's nappy on and he didn't even blink when I waved the fleece liner in his direction... I guess that nice little rectangle doesn't remotely resemble the jumper it once was! I'll come clean on holiday when he's drinking a beverage on the beach.

Our sleep was pretty bad. DH is getting about 3-5 hours sleep a night because of work. We are both in survival mode at the moment. The end is in sight though so I'm staying positive!

No teeth here, unbelievably. I think Cully will only ever have two teeth and will be teething when he's 40 at this rate.

 

[stephie_corin]

Amy - how are things with you and Chloe?

 

[AmyS]

Stephie - I bet your vacation travel will go so much better than you think it will. How exciting! Hopefully you can get some good relaxation while you're away! How are the cloth diapers coming? Do you like them better?

Polaris - Great news with Clara sleeping for so long on her own! That's amazing!

SE - In my opinion, WIO means doing whatever you feel Munchkin needs at the time. Whether that's boob, or soothing like he's 6 weeks old again, I'd do whatever feels right. This all seems related, don't you think? Teething (possibly), developmental, and daycare changes? He's probably just needing you more! (Haha, I read down more, and I see Polaris has said the same thing.)

Gaia - I've been sneaking in a late nap with Chloe too if her naps have been crap in the day because then she won't hardly make it past 6pm, and then the night seems to end up awful!
________________

We are still in the crib, thank goodness! Saturday night was not a good night though. She was very unsettled all night. And I have no idea why! Teething maybe??

Last night was better, but she was still very restless. I picked her up and rocked her for a few minutes at 10:15pm, and then she would move around and cry out periodically the rest of the night. I would just get out of bed, and then she would fall back to sleep on her own.

At the start of the night, I have found that if she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle, I can't rock her to sleep. She has to roll around in her crib with her lovey to get comfortable to sleep, so I end up putting her down. If she cries, I pat her back, and she usually falls asleep quickly. I'm not sure if this is progress or not. I feel bad that I can't soothe her to sleep anymore.

 

[gaiagirl]

Omg, never doing a late nap again. Our evening was HORRIBLE. Didn't help that our house was literally baking hot. He would NOT settle and got overtired, ugh. Rough.

Night was actually fine because he was exhausted, but GETTING him to sleep was a nightmare.

8:30am...guess I have to wake him up again!

 

[bababas]

thank you everybody. lets see how tonight is.

yesterday we went to grill for dinner at in laws. so he had a short nap in the car over there at 5. and another on the way home at 7pm

but he was sleepy 8.30pm so i put him down.

i didnt put him in the crip but in my bed. and he went to sleep fine.

he woke 23:00 coz he was coughing and wanted me. then his usual 0:30. 3:30. 5:30 and then bit grumpy after that til 7am due to teething. but slept on the boob kind of. he wants me as his pacifier. oh well, as long as it keeps us sleeping. if i try the pacifier he wakes angry and it takes more time to calm him.

im happy that at least now he does 0:30-3:30, coz the bad thing that was happening is 0:30-1:30 or 2:30.

so in that sense it is an improvement. what you think? bad or good?

i feel good. so i guess i got enough sleep lol.

about putting him down 8pm. im a bit scared coz ds1 we put him down first always. but then he is so noisy. til he falls asleep. if we put lo down first. not sure, i think ds1 will wake him. so we do ds1 first always first so OH and I help each other with the too.

cant write more.... ds1 is jelous of me being on computer
hehe

 

[seaweed eater]

Hugs, friends!!! Gaia and Stephie, sorry to hear about your struggles! I guess "embrace it" was poor advice, huh, Gaia?

Stephie, hang in there, this is almost over and soon you will all be relaxing on the beach!! One day those teeth will just be there and all you'll think is, "Of course they are." Thank you for your kind words. You articulated much better than I've been able to do why this has been a confusing time. I hope I'm being sensitive but it's just impossible to know the right way to respond sometimes. Sigh.
Hope all is well otherwise!

Amy, I know what you mean about its being weird not to be able to soothe them anymore. That's precisely why WIO has been tricky this time around (as Stephie expressed better than I did). I want to provide the comfort he needs but I also don't want to get in his way. He hates it when I pat him so I can't do that to calm him either -- he just needs to do it himself! Even though it's new, please don't feel badly. You just have an independent little girl, and you're learning about what works best for her.

I tried to respond a little more quickly last night and I think at the very least it didn't make things worse. What it did help with, I think, was getting him back to sleep 5:15-6. I think he wakes himself up too much if I let him struggle at that time, but I don't usually feel I can go to him any more quickly since I want to keep my responding extremely consistent. But today he did go back to sleep, and those extra 45 minutes help! And now he's taking a long nap!! I really hope this helps him have a better day today.

I could swear we are in acute teething territory again, though I've never once been right about that. TWO weeks ago, one of his daycare teachers said, with respect to his TOP teeth, "Hopefully those will come through tonight or tomorrow and he'll feel better"

 

[polaris]

SE - I totally understand your difficulty in wanting to do whatever you can to soothe him but at the same time giving him space to fall asleep himself. Thomas was totally like this, the only way he would fall asleep was self-settling and actually he wouldn't fall asleep when we were in the same room as him. So I had to go in and soothe him or nurse him or whatever, then put him back in the cot and leave the room, listen to see if he was settling, then if not, go back in and repeat until he settled. And actually also this same issue was partly why I ended up giving up on the cot with Clara too because she wanted to self-settle but as soon as I put her in the cot she would be wide awake standing up at the bars crying so it just wasn't working well because I was having to pick her back up and resettle her too many times and it was just draining.

Bababas, I think it is really hard to co-ordinate everything when you've got two kids to take into account. Just on a practical point, have you tried white noise in baby's room, I find that it works wonders to drown out general toddler screaming/playing/etc.

Gaia It is roasting hot here too and it's definitely harder for them to settle to sleep I think. (It is 27 degrees in Clara's room this evening and that is with the window wide open) Maybe just go with a later bedtime and later wake-up time for the moment if that is what is suiting him?

Amy - we have those random bad nights too for no apparent reason. Although I think they are still more frequent than the good nights so maybe it would be more accurate to say that we have random good nights! That's brilliant that she is still in the crib though and it sounds like she is working hard at learning to self-settle. I do think that is progress. Clara does a lot of rolling around trying to settle herself and I must admit that I am guilty at times of just sticking a boob into her mouth because I want her to go to sleep quickly instead of rolling around for 45 minutes!

Stephie - hope all is well with you after your crazy day today.

AFM, Clara is back to usual pattern of waking frequently all night after her amazing six hour stretch the other night. It's sooo hot here at the moment. We are having really busy days and I always think she's going to sleep well but so far we haven't had a repeat of the long stretch.

 

[mellyboo]

Thanks for the replys girls ! Hope everyone has a good nights sleep tonight .. Jords actually went to bed on her normal time tonight but it was actually normal outside today so it's not to hot in here!

 

[seaweed eater]

Munchkin refused his afternoon nap today. They tried for over two hours. He didn't even nap in the car on the way home. Obviously part of me is freaking out, but I'm reminding myself that he's strong and resilient, and we're going to get through this!

Bababas, I think we cross posted earlier, sorry I missed your post! Honestly if he's resettling quickly at night it sounds like he is getting enough sleep, and if you feel good despite all the wakings then you are doing fine. Put him down later if you need to in order to accommodate your DS1. You have the constraints you have! Just do your best with the WTs. So for example, if you want him down around 8:30 try to end his last nap around 6:30 (give or take). Etc.

Polaris, I'm sorry you haven't had any more long stretches. I hope you do soon, and that the weather gets better!

 

[gaiagirl]

SE yes you will!

Today: short nap at 10, short nap at 2. Bed at 6:45...so far going amazingly well compared to last night! But of course there's time for tonight to turn to sh........

 

[stephie_corin]

I'll be back later to respond to everyone. Just checking in. Sorry for the downer but we had a horrible, stressful afternoon due to circumstances beyond my control. As a result C went to bed 5 hours after last nap, and refused all feeds in that time because we were out of the house. Overtiredness = up every 45 minutes! I can't believe how real and immediate the effects of overtiredness were on his night sleep! Even in my delirious state I can see this is actually quite interesting!

Will catch you all later today xxx