Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[stephie_corin]

Polaris, 28 degrees is hot! Poor Clara! Can you put a fan in her room? I hope her cough gets better soon. Hopefully you don't feel too tired!!

SE, I feel so relieved to know Munchkin is doing a 5 hour stretch too (or longer!). We should have compared notes earlier! Every source I've read other than Dr Sears says that they need 14-15 hours sleep at this age. I think C is closer to 12.5-13. Although I guess I should wait a few more days before I call this the magic formula for success!

I think your plan with daycare and timing of naps seems like a good one. If C only takes a morning cat nap, 3-3.5 hours seems to be perfect for him before his next nap. Any longer and he starts getting quite fussy. Is there any lovey they would let him take in the crib? Maybe a small soft toy or a very small square of material? How about a day time sleeping bag that he could form an association with? What you say about sleep training makes sense.

Bababas, how was your night? Amy?

Gaia I am so sorry teething is messing you guys up again. I know you said a while back that 5 would be way too long for F but I wonder if you could slowly start increasing his awake times. Just a warning: I'm going to be suggesting this to everyone now so feel free to ignore me!

If this longer awake time works, I am never reading another sleep book, ever!

 

[gaiagirl]

Haha, I'm definitely never reading another one anyways. But I may try longer. Problem may have also been a messed up afternoon nap that went to 4:15...

I think 3:30 is about as late as he should be sleeping.

Hope you have another good one tonight!

 

[polaris]

Stephie, would you believe that I don't even own a fan? We are so not set up for this type of hot weather! I will have to get one if this hot weather continues. However it was thankfully a bit cooler last night, although Clara was still extremely disturbed and upset by her cough.

 

[stephie_corin]

Polaris, oh no! I think you should definitely buy one! Global warming could result in even hotter summers in the future! I feel bad for poor Clara. I hope she's on the mend soon.

We had a great day - it went perfectly to plan and he took a 1.75 hour nap in the afternoon and resettled himself 3 times! I was so proud. I watched his little eyes pop open and thought it was time to rock him back to sleep but he did it himself.

It's still taking ages to get him into a deep sleep at the end of the day though, evwn with the long awake time. It's now an hour since he fell asleep but I haven't been able to transfer him. He did the 5 hours easily though and definitely could have stayed up longer. Does anyone know the maximum time I should let him stay up? I guess he's probably so far over what's recommended at his age it will just be a case of trial and error.

 

[seaweed eater]

Stephie that's wonderful!! Such good news that he resettled himself three times in one nap. Way to go, Cully! I hope a good night follows!

With respect to maximum WT for him, I think you could either just stick with 5 if that's working well, or try to find his limits with the knowledge that you'll all probably be a little sleep deprived for a few days. Personally I think I would stick with 5 if he's going down easily and sleeping better, but it's up to you! Another issue is that much more than 5 and it starts being hard to fit in two naps most days, or at least that's been my experience -- if Munchkin goes to sleep later than a certain time, he can't sleep enough at night and then gets overtired in the morning, etc. I suppose if you want to stretch it you could try a BTC bedtime with around 5 hours before bed and then some days will naturally end up slightly longer than 5, and you could see if there's any difference.

I think somewhere around 12-13 hours of sleep has been right for Munchkin recently. 10 at night and around 2.5 daytime, give or take. Of course recently he's been closer to 10 or 11 hours many days which is not the disaster it sounds like it could be, but he could certainly use more than that. He has never gotten the average recommended amount of sleep, though. I remember looking at the Weissbluth statistics back when I read that (in...February?) and he was somewhere around the 10th percentile then too. He was born very alert, and for a while when he was little my only sleep strategy was to get him to sleep as much as possible by any means, and he was still an hour or two below average. So...I know we don't approve of saying all babies are different, but I've had to accept it!

Gaiagirl, I've found the same thing -- 4 used to be my cutoff for afternoon naps but I think 3 or 3:30 is better.

AFM...
We need to make a change over here. Things are getting worse. Waking almost every hour, and at precisely 4:30 every morning he's either up for the day or we have a suspenseful MOTN party. I feel a bit ashamed saying this in a thread full of WIOers, but I just don't think he needs to be waking up this often. I'm conflicted because I know there's a reason we made this change, and I'm scared to go back to having him cry. But I really don't believe he needs this. If he did, things should be getting better, not worse. He needs the sleep. And my needs count for something, too. Maybe not much but surely something.

I'll be thinking today about whether there's a way to limit nursing and encourage SS that's gentler and more flexible than what we were doing before. Suggestions welcome. I'm not really sure there is, though. So probably we are looking at round 3 of sleep training. :/

 

[stephie_corin]

SE - I'm so sorry things are getting worse! What kind of sleep training will you do? Gentle removal again? Of course your needs are important! A happy mummy is crucial for a happy baby!! Just as every baby is different, so too is every family and every circumstance. You need your brain at the moment! All I need to think about is how many boosters I should put in his nappy and whether I should eat the rest of the Lindt chocolate now or save it for later...

Thank you so much for your advice on wake times. 5 hours seems pretty good for now so I think I will stick with it, especially seeing as I am getting him up at 6am.

I just watched the most amazing thing on our video monitor. Cully woke up 45 minutes after I finally transferred him. I decided to watch and see what would happen. He lay there for 5-10 minutes with his eyes open looking around. He pulled on his blanket and raised his legs in the air, then put himself to sleep. I'm in shock and feel so happy. I can't believe something as simple as increasing his awake time has already had so many positive changes. He's normally crying at this wake up... I just can't believe it!

 

[bababas]

SE - I'm so sorry things are getting worse! What kind of sleep training will you do? Gentle removal again? Of course your needs are important! A happy mummy is crucial for a happy baby!! Just as every baby is different, so too is every family and every circumstance. You need your brain at the moment! All I need to think about is how many boosters I should put in his nappy and whether I should eat the rest of the Lindt chocolate now or save it for later...

Thank you so much for your advice on wake times. 5 hours seems pretty good for now so I think I will stick with it, especially seeing as I am getting him up at 6am.

I just watched the most amazing thing on our video monitor. Cully woke up 45 minutes after I finally transferred him. I decided to watch and see what would happen. He lay there for 5-10 minutes with his eyes open looking around. He pulled on his blanket and raised his legs in the air, then put himself to sleep. I'm in shock and feel so happy. I can't believe something as simple as increasing his awake time has already had so many positive changes. He's normally crying at this wake up... I just can't believe it!

that sounds perfect!!!

hope it will continue and get even better.

my night last night... i put aron down later coz of a late nap. coz we drove to the inlaws, so he fell asleep in the car. took some time to put him down, but nothing major. he woke up 2 times but managed to make himself sleep again. then 00:30 as usual 2:30 and 4:30 i think.... then we woke up around 7. but i couldnt really sleep tonight the neighbour´s BF again and his noisy car always wakes me up. nevertheless i was rested in the morning somehow went swimming with my toddler (running up the slide and slide down the water slide 10000000 times lol) while OH put Aron to nap. he has been difficult in his morning naps now i wonder if i put him down too early. it is 2hrs after his wake up. he is 5 months soon. ds1 had two naps at 6 months. wonder if aron is gonna change soon. dont like nap transitions.... you never know what happens, or what you are supposed to do.

 

[polaris]

Stephie - wow what brilliant news on the self-settling!! I am just so chuffed for you and Cully! Your little boy is growing up! It definitely sounds like increasing the wake-times was the right move. I am now wondering if I need to increase Clara's wake-times. Do you think it is worth a try? At the moment we are doing 2.5-3/4/4. Or maybe I should stick with those wake-times but get her up earlier from her afternoon nap? I currently let her sleep until 4 and aim for bedtime at 8 but maybe I should get her up at 3.30? Then I could either do bedtime at 7.30 or stick with an 8 p.m. bedtime for a 4.5 hour wake-time. Oh decisions decisions! I am going to buy a fan tomorrow by the way - you are right, we could be getting more hot summers and the forecast says it's not set to change this week anyway.

SE - I'm so sorry to hear that things are getting worse. I think it is worth going back to sleep training. Munchkin was sleeping SOO much better when you were sleep training. And it sounds like the timing might be good now in that he is a bit more settled in daycare. Also you are right, it might well improve his naps, when I did CC with Clara the most immediate improvement was that she started to nap properly again whereas before that she was taking 45 minutes to get settled and then only sleeping for 20 minutes.

Also I know I am one of those who are currently WIO but that is honestly just because it seems to be the best fit for my situation at the moment. That could all change and if I felt that Clara's sleep was really suffering and that sleep training would be better for her then I would be doing sleep training as I have done in the past. So I definitely don't think you should feel bad for considering sleep training. I think the nice thing about this thread is that different people take different approaches but everybody respects each other's parenting decisions.

Bababas - I hate nap transitions too. It's like as soon as you get your head around a good workable routine they go and change things up again!

Gaia - sorry things are back to the usual rubbish sleep. That is how Clara is too. It's like she gives me a little taster of what it would be like if she slept moderately well and then she goes back to her usual antics. But at least we are getting SOME good nights now which I take as a good sign of the direction that things will eventually move in.

 

[seaweed eater]

Thanks Stephie and Polaris yeah, I think we will just pick up where we left off. It's really not that different from what we are doing now, just different rules. At bedtime, nurse until he won't take anymore, then down awake and I'll sit in the room until he's asleep. Then limit how many times I nurse during the night, maybe to twice at first and then once. Instead of nursing, sit in his room if he doesn't settle on his own within a few minutes. I just remember how he started waking after 3-4 hours in, maybe the second week of it last time, and once I stopped feeding him then, he instantly stopped waking up. I'm hoping the same thing will happen now...that once he understands he doesn't get to nurse constantly, he'll just stop. We shall see

Stephie that is amazing!!! It just feels like such a miracle to see them do that. I'm so glad you have a video monitor and could observe the whole thing. Really amazing. Long may it continue!!

Bababas, sounds like a decent night, but I'm sorry the nap is difficult at the moment. You could always try 2.5 hours and see if that makes things any better, but I think he's too young for two naps still. It really seems to hit right at six months for many babies. Mine was taking 4-5 and then all of a sudden he wanted two! I agree with you, nap transitions are really tough and confusing. I would try a longer wake time for at least a few days but probably not try to push it to two naps for now.

Polaris, is Clara having an easy time settling when you put her down, and does she stay asleep? For us undertired = takes a long time to go down, or fights it, and often wakes up too soon. But maybe for Stephie the signs were different, so it certainly might be worth a try if it seems like C could stay up for longer.

 

[gaiagirl]

Stephie such an exciting day for you! Hope it continues!!!!

Sorry I am just stopping in on my phone and didn't read in detail...ill come back.

After he went to sleep at 9 last night it actually went well.

Tonight will be interesting. He has a decent morning nap then at 2 slept for only 20min...so by 6:15 at dinner he LOST it. I felt awful and he was hysterical as I got him ready for bed and then crashed HARD at 6:45.

I just feel terrible but I REALLY didn't want to do a third nap...poor baby!

Lets hope this bedtime doesn't just turn into nap 3...

 

[seaweed eater]

Ugh such a trying night. We actually decided to put it on hold when I noticed tooth #4 about to erupt. But then LO woke up at 45 min and would not be soothed (took him outside to play and he cried and rubbed his eyes, nursed him until he wouldn't nurse anymore) and we'd given ibuprofen already, so I let him cry. Took forever, over half an hour I'm not sure exactly how long. I just didn't know what else to do. But I regret it. I should have tried harder, tried taking him outside again, or put him in the carrier, or I don't know what else, but something. Now I don't know whether to keep going or not. DH won't give an opinion. I'm just so sad. His poor mouth must really hurt, this isn't the time to let him cry, and I wasn't able to soothe him. I win bad mother of the week award again.

 

[stephie_corin]

Bababas, swimming with a toddler sounds tiring! I'm so sorry your neighbour woke you up! I think Cully made the transition to 2 naps at 6.5 months. Could Aron be overtired? You could try 1.5 or 1.75 for the first awake time. I remember Cully was really sensitive to being overtired at that age and his first awake time was pretty short, particularly as he was having broken sleep the night before.

Thanks Polaris! It might be worth a shot increasing her last waketime and see how she goes. C falls asleep easily at 3.5, 4 and 5 hours since his last nap and seems to take an hour before I can transfer him regardless, but the longer waketime before bed has significantly reduced the number of night wakings. He was waking pretty much every sleep cycle and last night it was only 4 times!! We did have an interesting MOTN party - I fed him back to sleep and went to the bathroom only to come back to him sitting bolt upright in the middle of the bed. He has never done this before and it took him a while to go back to sleep. The rest of the night wakings were a breeze! For us, I think a decent second nap is the key to a happy long awake time before bed. He catnaps in the morning (30-45 mins) and then has taken a 1.5 ish hour afternoon snooze.

SE, thank you! It did feel like a miracle!! lol. I think your plan is a good one! Good luck my friend, and as always please keep us updated!

Gaia, I'm so sorry the evening was so horrible! Can you help his back to sleep when he wakes early from a nap? 20 minutes is rough! Poor little guy. Here's hoping for a good night for you!!

 

[CupcakeBaby]

I'm giving up for tonight. DD just can't sleep unless she's on me tonight. Reflux is playing up.

If I put her down she just moans and groans.

It's going to be a loooong day!

 

[stephie_corin]

SE!!! We cross posted! Huge hugs to you! You are not a bad mummy!!! You are a wonderful mummy - Munchkin is so lucky to have you! Sometimes they don't want to be soothed. C just woke up but I will write properly later. Thinking of you!!!

 

[polaris]

SE, when you say that you let him cry were you sitting beside his bed? I don't think it's so terrible, as Stephie says sometimes they just don't want to be soothed. That is how Clara is at the moment with her cough. It is really horrible because she just wants to go to sleep but she can't because she keeps coughing and then crying. But nothing that I do helps, she doesn't want to nurse more, she twists out of my arms to get down if I pick her up, if I try to stroke her head or pat her back she pushes my arm away, I have even tried turning on the lights and playing with her a bit but she just wants to go to sleep. I am just lying beside her while she coughs and cries and eventually she rolls back towards me and nurses a bit more and then finally goes to sleep. But it is miserable not being able to do anything to help her.

 

[stephie_corin]

Polaris has just said exactly what I was going to say but with a different example! This morning Cully fell and bumped his head and was crying like the world was going to end. I tried to nurse him, hug him, stroke him but he just kept pushing me away. I know you feel enotional about what happened but don't be so hard on yourself. You're probably exhausted yourself which totally intensifies these feelings. I hope you get some sleep tonight honey xxx

 

[bababas]

Bababas, sounds like a decent night, but I'm sorry the nap is difficult at the moment. You could always try 2.5 hours and see if that makes things any better, but I think he's too young for two naps still. It really seems to hit right at six months for many babies. Mine was taking 4-5 and then all of a sudden he wanted two! I agree with you, nap transitions are really tough and confusing. I would try a longer wake time for at least a few days but probably not try to push it to two naps for now.
.

could also be just one of those days. i think i will wait it out as long as possible. i mean like how i did with ds1, i waited and tried as long as possible to have 3 naps. but still the transition is boring isnt it yea i agree that he is too young for two. i try to push it as long as possible. thank you. now he is crying for me have to go

 

[Babybear85]

Can I join you all. My little dude is only 12 weeks but really struggling. Absolutely expect his night wakings just finding it hard atm with the heat and having a toddler. In a place of not knowing whether to buy a bigger swaddling blanket for him or try sleeping bag. His startle reflex is really bad my eldest was in a bag by 2 months but littly doesn't seem to be loosing it yet. Feel like the walking dead today

 

[Noelle610]

I'm giving up for tonight. DD just can't sleep unless she's on me tonight. Reflux is playing up.

If I put her down she just moans and groans.

It's going to be a loooong day!

Oh, I had a reflux baby too, it's so hard because there's little you can do. Do you have a Rock-n-Play Sleeper?

Can I join you all. My little dude is only 12 weeks but really struggling. Absolutely expect his night wakings just finding it hard atm with the heat and having a toddler. In a place of not knowing whether to buy a bigger swaddling blanket for him or try sleeping bag. His startle reflex is really bad my eldest was in a bag by 2 months but littly doesn't seem to be loosing it yet. Feel like the walking dead today

Hi and welcome! I think I would continue swaddling if his startle reflex is still really bad. The miracle blanket was a life-saver for me. It's like a baby straight jacket!

 

[bababas]

seaweed you are not a bad mom. sometimes they just have bad days. and they cant talk yet, so there is only so much we can do. he is teething anyway. dont worry, hope the bad days will go away!


stephie, Aron was ok this morning nap. just fell asleep with no problem. still sleeping YEY. was able to exercise. maybe it was just one of those nasty days or teething. thank you. aron is more sensitive when he is not tired, then i just get kicked and punched by a 5 months old i dont get it. haha in the night it takes longer. and he wants to ONLY fall asleep on the breast. but i wonder how long that will work. ds1 fell asleep on the bottle until 5-6monthish. after that i just tried to put him awake in his crib. BUT Aron hates his crib for night time maybe i look too much into the future haha. we will see what will happen.