Rape Culture - What do you think?

[Sarahkka]

The recent outcry over the Steubenville rape convictions has a lot of people shocked that there is so much support and sympathy for the perpetrators, and mostly blame and shame for the victims.
The term "rape culture" basically claims that we live in a world in which rape may be a criminal act, but it is a very accepted behaviour. "Slut-shaming", or blaming a woman's clothes/behaviour as signals that she was "asking for it" is a rampant phenomenon, and has become even more prevalent and nasty with the rise of social media. Why is this? Why do we still, in this day and age, turn on the victim?
Is it because we live in a rape culture, as it is termed?
How do we change it? How do we raise sons and daughters that understand and respect consensual sex if there are so many behaviours to the contrary happening all around us in society?
Very interested to hear thoughts on this!

 

[Noelle610]

Thank you for bringing this up! DH and I have been discussing it lately and I think it's an important topic.

I absolutely think much of the western world advocates a rape culture. We like to think that rape is only committed by sociopaths, but in reality this isn't true. I've found that many "normal" men don't really understand what it means to consent. "No", "maybe" or a highly intoxicated "yes" all mean no. It's best to err on the side of caution when engaging in sexual relations. Many men (and women) seem to believe that unless a women is screaming "NO, NO, NO" and being held at gunpoint it just can't be rape. The world isn't that black and white, sexual assault included. This attitude is present in the US and is really complicated by the presence of sexism, aggression and excessive alcohol consumption in our culture. The scene in the "40 Year Old Virgin" where Steve Carrell's friends encourage him to sleep with a very drunk woman who can't drive and is vommitting everywhere is evidence of this. It's supposed to be funny, but it's actually scary in my opinion.

I think we combat this by changing the way we approach sexual assault campaigns. It's always on the woman - don't walk around at night alone, don't dress in revealing clothes, don't take drinks from men you don't know, etc. Men need to be responsible for their actions and we need to teach them what it means to consent. I feel that people shy away from this approach because deep down inside they feel they're admitting that their sons, brothers and fathers could be rapists. But life is complicated and "normal" people do bad things and we can't shy away from that. If I had a son, I would teach him that if he wonders if a woman is consenting, that's his cue to stop. Better safe than sorry. "Ask Moxie", who usually writes about sleep, had a nice blog entry this week that speaks to the issue:

https://www.askmoxie.org/2013/03/a-letter-to-my-sons-about-stopping-rape.html

 

[Sarahkka]

That was a really great link! Thanks for posting that!

I am always looking for ways to teach my sons about bodies and boundaries, as I think this message needs to start early. We have a rule in our house that no matter how much rough-housing and silliness is going on, if someone says "no" or "stop", it stops. Right then. That seems to be a successful lesson so far, but all of Ask Moxie's other sugestions about how to teach little ones that their bodies are their own and that they have a right to autonomy and respect were very good. I may be implementing some of those more verbally.

As for the sexual assualt campaigns, I could not agree with you more. It is very very chilling to realize how many women I know have been sexually assaulted - and the assaults run the spectrum from a stranger giving my girlfriend a laced drink and raping her all the way to familial sexual abuse. We are raised to think we are responsible for avoiding this: that if we just wear the right clothes and stay in groups and watch our drinks and never go out alone and... etc etc etc, we will be safe. Such a fallacy. So the victim gets the trauma of the violation, and then massive guilt. As though she was responsible for preventing this somehow. So messed up!
And yet, I refuse to walk around afraid, either. I don't think living my life in paranoia of impending rape is particularly healthy, no matter how statistically probable it might be. I think we need to change the way we teach and talk about sex, for a start. But we also need to start taking some risks in helping each other out. It is really awkward and scary to challenge someone and get them to back down (especially in the Steubenville case where youth and alcohol were also factors), but somewhere along the line, I hope we collectively start stepping in and making sure that a silly drunk young thing is going to get home safely (as one example).
Right now, I am just trying to be a calm voice of challenge to those who say "she asked for it", but I have to admit to being pretty stunned by how vicious some of the slut-shaming is. And a lot of it comes from other women - even harder for me to understand that one.

 

[Noelle610]

You know, I am also very shocked by the number of women I know who have been raped.

I'm also shocked by the number of women I know who have described sexual situations to me that certainly sound like rape, but they don't identify it as such (usually involving alcohol and drugs). I think women actually need to be educated on what it means to consent as well.

In order to make meaningful changes, we'll really have to challenge the status quo with this one. I'm hopeful that it will happen... I really don't want my daughter growing up in a world with such a prominent rape culture. It frightens me.

 

[Sarahkka]

Well, Steubenville is awful - absolutely disgusting - but it seems to have opened a lot of dialogues on the topic. That's a start?

 

[Fizzyfefe]

This whole "rape culture" business makes me angry. More than angry. I don't even know where to start. In our society, women are seen as sexual objects. I think, until that changes, education just won't be enough to prevent it from happening.

I am absolutely disgusted by the fact that we live in a society where rape is accepted, and the victim is blamed for his/her rape. I am disgusted that rapists go unpunished, or that there is a lack of adequate punishment. It is disgusting that people believe a woman asks to be raped, or that her clothes/lack of the word "no"/inebriation level make it acceptable to force intercourse. It is horrible to think that people judge a woman who is raped, saying that she deserved it.

I am disgusted that a woman must justify her actions, behavior, clothing choices, location, or drinking status. Even if a woman is naked, drunk, and flirting with every person in the room, that does not give ANYONE consent to have sex with her. People around the world are raped every single day, regardless of what they were wearing or what they were doing at the time.

It is NEVER a woman's fault if she is raped. A person does not ask to be raped. A person does not want to be raped.

We live in a society that teaches 'Don't get raped' rather than 'Don't rape.' How is that okay?

 

[Andypanda6570]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I think that is more the way of older generations thinking this way, that how a woman dresses or acts that it her fault for being raped.

It is never her fault NO IS NO and all 3 of my sons know this. Is there people still out there that have this mentality, of course, but I don't feel the majority do. People who think this way, I feel sorry for them.

Like I said I just don't know any people who feel this way about rape, I would probably be amazed if I ever met someone who did. It is sad that women have to go through a trial or have to explain this or that to a jury or a lawyer.

My friend was sexually assaulted and didn't want to report it, cause she was scared they would bring up her past the people that she has been with. But that is what lawyers do , they try to make people think just cause you have had a lot of sexual partners that you are promiscuous. Lawyers do anything to get their client off. I think most people would not consider this a factor in rape, I wouldn't. It is very sad people like this are still out there with this thinking, but I just don't feel the majority do..

 

[Piper84]

I was really interested in this case and I'm also interested to see what happens with all the adults and enablers who tried to cover it up before the matter was publicised so much online and handed to federal prosecutors.

The CNN report on the poor perpetrators whose lives have been ruined also stuck in my craw when I saw it online. It's like they were so intent on looking for an emotional angle on the story that the actual facts of the matter, that the boys had been found guilty and that there's a girl who has to live the rest of her life with this, took a back seat. I couldn't believe that some news outlets also named the girl, apparently by accident.

I agree that victim-blaming is ALWAYS wrong in such cases, but while I'm going to teach my son to respect women's boundaries, I am also going to teach both my children, when DD comes along, not to get so drunk that you either don't know what you're doing or are not in any position to protect yourself. I don't think it's victim-blaming to advise young people never to get into a situation in which they aren't in control.

 

[Kess]

I think part of the problem is the acceptance of 'low level' sexual assault. A friend of mine does a lot of security work, often as doorman on clubs. I couldn't believe how sort of resigned he was to the idea that women will get grabbed and groped and get their arses squeezed, and there's nothing security will do about it unless they see it. Even then they'll just chuck the bloke out. I asked about calling the police, apparently it's too much paperwork. I gave him both barrells about that but he maintains the police probably wouldn't come as it's so common and anyway it's a he-said-she-said situation in the cramped atmosphere of a club. This is a really good guy, a very good friend of mine, who is respectful of women and other people's boundaries. Many women seem to have the same attitude, that it's "nothing", not worth making a fuss over. I find that really sad.

One campaign I love and I think should be more publicised is the Yes Means Yes campaign. Rather than the default being an assumption of consent unless one is told No, it takes the stance that people should seek Active Consent - i.e. unless your partner is actively encouraging you, you need to stop. I think No Means No leaves some ambiguity about maybe, or a drunken yes, or an "Oh go on then".

There were two very scary US studies done which asked men (one population of college students and one of Navy men) if they had ever raped anyone, though they didn't use the word "rape" they asked very clear questions about having sex by force with someone who didn't want to, was unconscious, was intoxicated, or had been drugged by the man himself. The percentages who admitted to raping or attempting to rape at least one woman were 6% and 13%, respectively. Horrifying. Bet a lot of them don't even see themselves as rapists either.

 

[Kess]

That AskMoxie thing is fantastic, Noelle, I have saved it to go through with my son when he's older.

 

[Sarahkka]

So many good points made.

Fizzyfefe, your last sentence totally sums it up I think.

We live in a society that teaches 'Don't get raped' rather than 'Don't rape.' How is that okay?

Andypanda - I didn't think I knew anyone who thought rape was okay either, until I wound up in a few casual discussions about this and found that the general sentiment was guarded sympathy for the victim. As in, "poor thing, that's awful, but what did she expect getting that drunk and wearing clothes like that?" Granted these comments were from older women, a generation that grew up with the "don't get raped" message.
But the online discussion is what has really shocked me. Maybe people just like being trolls and saying awful things, but I got the feeling that a lot of the vicious things stated about the victim were heartfelt. People truly believe that she deserved what happened to her.

 

[Noelle610]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

 

[Noelle610]

I think part of the problem is the acceptance of 'low level' sexual assault. A friend of mine does a lot of security work, often as doorman on clubs. I couldn't believe how sort of resigned he was to the idea that women will get grabbed and groped and get their arses squeezed, and there's nothing security will do about it unless they see it. Even then they'll just chuck the bloke out. I asked about calling the police, apparently it's too much paperwork. I gave him both barrells about that but he maintains the police probably wouldn't come as it's so common and anyway it's a he-said-she-said situation in the cramped atmosphere of a club. This is a really good guy, a very good friend of mine, who is respectful of women and other people's boundaries. Many women seem to have the same attitude, that it's "nothing", not worth making a fuss over. I find that really sad.

One campaign I love and I think should be more publicised is the Yes Means Yes campaign. Rather than the default being an assumption of consent unless one is told No, it takes the stance that people should seek Active Consent - i.e. unless your partner is actively encouraging you, you need to stop. I think No Means No leaves some ambiguity about maybe, or a drunken yes, or an "Oh go on then".

There were two very scary US studies done which asked men (one population of college students and one of Navy men) if they had ever raped anyone, though they didn't use the word "rape" they asked very clear questions about having sex by force with someone who didn't want to, was unconscious, was intoxicated, or had been drugged by the man himself. The percentages who admitted to raping or attempting to rape at least one woman were 6% and 13%, respectively. Horrifying. Bet a lot of them don't even see themselves as rapists either.

I agree with you 110%. I don't think anyone would outright say they think rape is okay, but I think it's common for men to define rape as something they would never do. It's only "rape" to them if it's outside the bounds of what they find acceptable. If you look at the legal definition of rape, many men don't see themselves as rapists, when they actually are. The study you've highlighted shows this to be true.

I will admit to being a bit bias in terms of this subject. I was assaulted as a teen by a very charismatic and popular young man in our community. I encountered a lot of shame from friends (yup) who claimed he just couldn't be a rapist. I was extremely intoxicated at the time (my first time) and it complicated matters.

I hesitate to share this, but I think it's relevent because I've seen this attitude first hand. If you were to ask the man who assaulted me if he thought he had, I think he would say no.

 

[teal]

Kess - completely agree that yes means yes should be more publicised. Agree that no means no assumes that consent is the default.

There is so much victim blaming. Too much focus on what the victim was wearing or drinking. Not enough emphasis on drinking not being a crime, wearing revealing clothing isn't a crime but rape is definitely a crime.

I think a very damaging myth is the stranger in the dark alley scenario. I didn't learn until later that you're much more likely to be assaulted by someone you know. This hindered my naming what happened and also in seeking any support.

 

[Sarahkka]

piper - I agree that teaching your kids how not to be a victim is important. I hope to also teach mine how to watch out for their friends and make sure that they get home safely, too.

 

[Andypanda6570]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

I meant friends and family. I don't know any sociopaths either as far as i know.
For me and people who are close to me it is cut and dry that a woman is never at fault. Of course there are people who will say that it is or was the woman's fault, but I don't think that is a majority, more a minority. I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of a women intoxicated, quit the opposite. I have known men and 2 of my sons who have taken the girl-women home so that nothing bad would happen to her.

Of course there are bad people out there, but I just think the majority of people are decent and good, maybe I live in a bubble. I don't know

 

[Noelle610]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

I meant friends and family. I don't know any sociopaths either as far as i know.
For me and people who are close to me it is cut and dry that a woman is never at fault. Of course there are people who will say that it is or was the woman's fault, but I don't think that is a majority, more a minority. I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of a women intoxicated, quit the opposite. I have known men and 2 of my sons who have taken the girl-women home so that nothing bad would happen to her.

Of course there are bad people out there, but I just think the majority of people are decent and good, maybe I live in a bubble. I don't know

That's fair I don't think you live in a bubble. Perhaps I'm on the other side of the coin and a bit more mistrusting of people than I should be

 

[Andypanda6570]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

I meant friends and family. I don't know any sociopaths either as far as i know.
For me and people who are close to me it is cut and dry that a woman is never at fault. Of course there are people who will say that it is or was the woman's fault, but I don't think that is a majority, more a minority. I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of a women intoxicated, quit the opposite. I have known men and 2 of my sons who have taken the girl-women home so that nothing bad would happen to her.

Of course there are bad people out there, but I just think the majority of people are decent and good, maybe I live in a bubble. I don't know

That's fair I don't think you live in a bubble. Perhaps I'm on the other side of the coin and a bit more mistrusting of people than I should be

No I think i do live in a bubble, cause I give people the benefit of the doubt to much and sometimes that is not good Sorry something just happened where I talked with a member here, a new member and I poured my heart out to her and listened to her about her "Loss" turns out she was a fake and a
liar. So I know it does not pertain to this thread it does pertain to me living in a bubble..... the member has been deleted.. I need to grow some you know what's and stop being so friggin gullible ..

 

[Noelle610]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

I meant friends and family. I don't know any sociopaths either as far as i know.
For me and people who are close to me it is cut and dry that a woman is never at fault. Of course there are people who will say that it is or was the woman's fault, but I don't think that is a majority, more a minority. I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of a women intoxicated, quit the opposite. I have known men and 2 of my sons who have taken the girl-women home so that nothing bad would happen to her.

Of course there are bad people out there, but I just think the majority of people are decent and good, maybe I live in a bubble. I don't know

That's fair I don't think you live in a bubble. Perhaps I'm on the other side of the coin and a bit more mistrusting of people than I should be

No I think i do live in a bubble, cause I give people the benefit of the doubt to much and sometimes that is not good Sorry something just happened where I talked with a member here, a new member and I poured my heart out to her and listened to her about her "Loss" turns out she was a fake and a
liar. So I know it does not pertain to this thread it does pertain to me living in a bubble..... the member has been deleted.. I need to grow some you know what's and stop being so friggin gullible ..

Don't be so hard on yourself

I actually think most people have good intentions, which is why I don't think most men would identify what they do as "rape" when in actuality it might be. I think that's what it's important to start a campaign that educates young men about what it means for a woman to consent. The "Yes Means Yes" stuff is fantastic and we need more of it.

 

[Andypanda6570]

Honestly I have never met a person in my life who thought rape was ok

I don't think it's so cut and dry. Of course I've never met anyone who would come out and say, "I love raping people!", but I don't know any sociopaths at the moment.

I do know men that think it's perfectly fine to sleep with a woman is extremely intoxicated. I also know men who think it's okay to engage with a woman who says, "Maybe, I'm not sure....". I'm willing to bet you know these people too.

I meant friends and family. I don't know any sociopaths either as far as i know.
For me and people who are close to me it is cut and dry that a woman is never at fault. Of course there are people who will say that it is or was the woman's fault, but I don't think that is a majority, more a minority. I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of a women intoxicated, quit the opposite. I have known men and 2 of my sons who have taken the girl-women home so that nothing bad would happen to her.

Of course there are bad people out there, but I just think the majority of people are decent and good, maybe I live in a bubble. I don't know

That's fair I don't think you live in a bubble. Perhaps I'm on the other side of the coin and a bit more mistrusting of people than I should be

No I think i do live in a bubble, cause I give people the benefit of the doubt to much and sometimes that is not good Sorry something just happened where I talked with a member here, a new member and I poured my heart out to her and listened to her about her "Loss" turns out she was a fake and a
liar. So I know it does not pertain to this thread it does pertain to me living in a bubble..... the member has been deleted.. I need to grow some you know what's and stop being so friggin gullible ..

Don't be so hard on yourself

I actually think most people have good intentions, which is why I don't think most men would identify what they do as "rape" when in actuality it might be. I think that's what it's important to start a campaign that educates young men about what it means for a woman to consent. The "Yes Means Yes" stuff is fantastic and we need more of it.

Thank you