Sharia Law in Canada

[BrandiCanucks]

I apologize to anyone who practices Islam. This is not meant to offend.

In the wake of Germany declaring multiculturalism a failure, and Canada electing it's first Muslim mayor of a major city, the talks have started again of Canada adopting Sharia Law. The government is trying to keep silent on the issue as best as possible, due to the overwhelming uproar that will be felt should they pass the law. I really wish I could find the article my instructor showed us.

Anyway, by adopting Sharia law, it would make it legal for ALL men in Canada, not just those who practice Islam, to hit their wives and children, as long as the object is no thicker than their thumb, as long as it is done in private, and as long as it does not leave a mark.

What do you think of Canada trying to adopt this law? Is it okay for all of Canada to have to follow it, should it just be there for the Islamic community, should it be there at all? What does this say to you about Canada and its 'peacekeeping' label?

Do you agree or disagree that multiculturalism has failed? Why or why not?

Do you think this law will pass? If so, what do you think might happen?

 

[kiwimama]

wth?! No way! Imagine the implications that would come out of that - men who have beaten their wives or kids getting away with it because they use the defence that they were using the Sharia Law.

 

[coccyx]

no way should this be passed. Don't care what religion you follow, not right to allow hitting. thin end of the wedge and all that.

 

[cherryglitter]

No I don't think the law should be passed, at all. Just because you follow a certain religion doesn't mean you should be allowed to get away with 'murder', so to speak.

Just because something doesn't leave a mark doesn't mean it's not going to hurt!

 

[redpoppy]

Me me! I'm muslim! I'm muslim!

I have a LOT to say about this issue as I know quite a bit about it.

1. When countries are talking of adopting sharia law they generally don't mean REPLACING their laws. they mean giving sharia law courts some power in their daily dealings.

2. The primary (almost 99%) of these "dealings" are providing women with divorces form their husbands. Under islamic law, men can divorce women by verbally informing them but women must apply for a divorce to a court. I can discuss this more if need be.

3. Although sharia law is very unfair in terms of rights to men and women the problem here is that a LARGE number of women from different muslim cultures WILL NOT get a divorce through other legal means. This means MANY MANY times woman are stuck in emotional or physically abusive relationships and because they only believe in a sharia divorce they would be stuck in those marriages without the sharia court system.

4. Many men who are ordered by a Sharia court to pay their wives/ex-wives compensation by Sharia courts do not do so because they know the courts have no power.

So although it's not a fair system in my or most westerners opinion the problem is they serve a very important purpose. The thing I feel that would actually solve a HUGE part of this problem would just be the legal courts of these countries to recognise every single muslim marriage that takes place as being a legal marriage in that country. When this DOES NOT happen the woman end up with NO rights and have to go through the Sharia system to get a divorce or to get ANY rights whatsoever. (even if they are comparatively not great)

But if all marriages were recognised then men could not be such idiots and throw woman out of their homes, marry second wives and treat their first wives like cr*p etc. A woman may still want a Sharia divorce as she believes in it but there would be much less room for abuse.

This whole recognising all Muslim marriages is tough as even in the UK you have to register a marriage but more stringent rules would make these issues easier.

Also, perhaps something could be done whereby local councils could work with the Sharia courts and learn about abusive men and do something about it?

And no, Canadians do not have to get into a tabloid news tizzy over it being legal to beat your wife in Canada if Sharia is introduced, not that it needs to be or should be. Please try and understand the issues before getting scandalised and spreading hysteria. Sorry if that sounds harsh but being a liberal and modern Muslim I can't stand the hype and hysteria and falsities spread about Islam and Muslims. I'd like to see how many Christians believe a rape victim should be forced to marry her aggressor or that their children should be stoned when they don't listen to their parents about their drinking habits.

 

[redpoppy]

And in regards to multiculturalism failing, I think yes and no. The ultimate issue is segregation. People naturally segregate to be with people with the same culture, religion, political viewpoints, outlook on life or even colour as themselves. That is natural and fine SO long as friendly integration is a priority. I don't like the idea of Muslim/Jewish/Catholic/Black/Asian/rich/Conservative/poor/Liberal or whatever kids not meeting and having the opportunity to make friends with other children of different cultures etc. This is the issue in my eyes.

 

[November1984]

Anyway, by adopting Sharia law, it would make it legal for ALL men in Canada, not just those who practice Islam, to hit their wives and children, as long as the object is no thicker than their thumb, as long as it is done in private, and as long as it does not leave a mark.

I think that applies almost everywhere. If I were to be in an abusive relationship and call the police with no marks on me, no proof AND it turns out to be a he said/she said sort of instance nothing will be done.
The only way I got my ex husband jailed is because I recorded him threatening to kill me plus admitting to the previous abuse.
He almost got a felony for the threat (falls under the definition of a terrorist threat in the USA) and a misdemeanor for the physical abuse.
Domestic violence can be hard for a court to uphold sometimes. I am 100% against any law that permits it though.

 

[NuKe]

shocking. and thankyou poppy!

 

[kiwimama]

Very interesting info thanks poppy

 

[redpoppy]

Aw thanks guys! I feels speshulz.

Please feel free to ask any questions! I think sometimes people get scared to ask things because they think people may get offended but I'd rather answer questions than have people not know and feel uneasy or worse make assumptions.

 

[blahblahblah]

And in regards to multiculturalism failing, I think yes and no. The ultimate issue is segregation. People naturally segregate to be with people with the same culture, religion, political viewpoints, outlook on life or even colour as themselves. That is natural and fine SO long as friendly integration is a priority. I don't like the idea of Muslim/Jewish/Catholic/Black/Asian/rich/Conservative/poor/Liberal or whatever kids not meeting and having the opportunity to make friends with other children of different cultures etc. This is the issue in my eyes.

I think this is kind of my issue with the whole multi-culturalism thing, particularly in the UK. As there are more and more people coming here from all over the world, they seem to integrate less and less, to the point where they seem to end up transplanting the lifestyle of their families original country - and if someone does that, what's the point?

We should have one community, not however many from different countries and religions. Until there are big steps towards making that happen, I will always consider multi-culturalism a failure.

 

[BrandiCanucks]

I agree, blahblahblah.

Recently, in Canada, millions of immigrants, from out of nowhere, came to the BC cost on a boat. Rather than Canada turning them away and saying No, they said "Where will we put them?" Oh, Toronto".

Canada's biggest issue is that they are trying too hard to keep their peacekeeping image by adapting to everyone else's culture and religion, rather than keeping Canadian culture. We can't say Merry Christmas anymore, because it might offend. We can't put up a Christmas tree in Market Square, because the person living across the street doesn't celebrate Christmas, but they'll still partake in all our holidays at Christmas.

Recently, a woman was ordered to testify in court and where any other Canadian citizen would have to have their face covered, she did not have to remove her headdress, which revealed only her eyes. It could have been anyone under that garmant.

I don't mind if you move here and continue with your culture, that is perfectly fine, but if you're going to move to a new country, you should be able to financially support yourself for at least 3 years and be actively searching for a job. A common misconception is that most people on welfare are lazy moms who don't want to work. There are people who immigrate, have the financial ability to support themselves, but to save THEIR money, are allowed to go on assistance and be supported by MINE. Nu uh, I don't think so.

If you're going to move to another country, you must learn the language BEFORE moving to the country, unless you are fleeing danger and do not have the opportunity to learn beforehand.

And above all, if you don't believe in OUR customs, don't change them, and don't partake in them. I'm sure we will gladly allow you your religious statutory holidays and your workplace would LOVE to have someone work over ours, but don't take away our customs claiming you don't celebrate that holiday, then take that same day off work like it's nothing at all.

The only ones losing out in Canada are Canadian citizens.

 

[redpoppy]

i'm sorry but there is no-one of any culture out there offended by Christmas or xmas trees. It's all nonsense. When you meet a real live immigrant who thinks otherwise please record the conversation as i Will never believe it otherwise. It's media promoted anti immigrant bordering on racist hysteria driving bull sh*t. If anyone wants to stop xmas it's usually atheists who want it to be recognised as a pagan holiday or white liberals carrying unnecessary guilt.

 

[caz81]

Some interesting points made Redpoppy, but I still disagree with the introduction of Sharia Law/Sharia courts in countries. There are a number of reasons for my opinion (in no particular order!):
1. You mentioned about the fact that courts should recoginse all Muslim marriages, which at the moment they don't. Im unsure whether you mean polygamy or that its just marriages between 2 people that have not taken place in a registry office? If its in reference to husbands taking more than one wife then I dont see how any country should be forced to accept that. I dont know much about Canadian law but if we talk about UK law then it completely goes against what is in our legal system, I dont agree with one rule for one one rule for another, it goes against the core beliefs that our judicial system is set upon. If its the second point then lots of religions have to have 2 ceremonies (one religious & one for the formalities) so I dont see why one group should have things different to everyone else
2.Abilities for women to divorce - maybe we should be focusing more on the rights of these women so that they are able to divorce in a 'normal' court. If we accept that Muslim women can only go to a Sharia court to divorce then things will never change.
3.I think it segregates communities even more - there are already a lot of tensions in society this makes it worse
4.It increases misconceptions against Muslims (see the original post for proof of this!)
5.I lived for year in a Muslim country, I did not expect to have a different set of laws applied to me because I am a Chrisitian, if you live in a country you have to accept the rules that are there.
6.If you live in a country you have to accept the rules and laws of the country, I dont believe you can expect a country to change their laws because of your religion - there are Muslim counties that practice Sharia law where people can live.
7.I cant help but remember recently one of the top people in the UK Sharia court saying it was ok for husbands to rape their wives - I think we need to be working on equality of women not accepting the treatment of women and by allowing these courts we are.

Its a hard balance because I completely agree with keeping cultures when you move to a new country, that is what I love about the UK, the mix of people. My husband is Indian and so we are bringing up our daughter with a mix of the two cultures. Having lived in both Rural India and the Middle East where there was no acceptation of other cultures I love that we are so mixed...BUT I do not agree with changing the legal system/ adapting it for different groups of people. I think we should all live by the same rules otherwise it leads to splits in communities

 

[redpoppy]

Some interesting points made Redpoppy, but I still disagree with the introduction of Sharia Law/Sharia courts in countries. There are a number of reasons for my opinion (in no particular order!):
1. You mentioned about the fact that courts should recoginse all Muslim marriages, which at the moment they don't. Im unsure whether you mean polygamy or that its just marriages between 2 people that have not taken place in a registry office? If its in reference to husbands taking more than one wife then I dont see how any country should be forced to accept that. I dont know much about Canadian law but if we talk about UK law then it completely goes against what is in our legal system, I dont agree with one rule for one one rule for another, it goes against the core beliefs that our judicial system is set upon. If its the second point then lots of religions have to have 2 ceremonies (one religious & one for the formalities) so I dont see why one group should have things different to everyone else
2.Abilities for women to divorce - maybe we should be focusing more on the rights of these women so that they are able to divorce in a 'normal' court. If we accept that Muslim women can only go to a Sharia court to divorce then things will never change.
3.I think it segregates communities even more - there are already a lot of tensions in society this makes it worse
4.It increases misconceptions against Muslims (see the original post for proof of this!)
5.I lived for year in a Muslim country, I did not expect to have a different set of laws applied to me because I am a Chrisitian, if you live in a country you have to accept the rules that are there.
6.If you live in a country you have to accept the rules and laws of the country, I dont believe you can expect a country to change their laws because of your religion - there are Muslim counties that practice Sharia law where people can live.
7.I cant help but remember recently one of the top people in the UK Sharia court saying it was ok for husbands to rape their wives - I think we need to be working on equality of women not accepting the treatment of women and by allowing these courts we are.

Its a hard balance because I completely agree with keeping cultures when you move to a new country, that is what I love about the UK, the mix of people. My husband is Indian and so we are bringing up our daughter with a mix of the two cultures. Having lived in both Rural India and the Middle East where there was no acceptation of other cultures I love that we are so mixed...BUT I do not agree with changing the legal system/ adapting it for different groups of people. I think we should all live by the same rules otherwise it leads to splits in communities

Well firstly I didn't say countries should accept Sharia law. I just clarified the issues of what that meant. It's not "oh no they're throwing all our laws away and instead we'll be forced to follow Islamic law!!!" type hysteria that MANY people think it is.

Thanks for you points and if I sound annoyed its not at you but atteh horrible problem that sharia is and the fact that nothing is ever going to be done about it because people are more concerned about ideologies than the lves of women and the realities. I am very passionate about this topic.

1. No I didn't mean polygamy as I meant and suggested (although I suppose I could have been clearer) that by recognising the first marriage as a LEGAL one then men COULD not commit bigamy and end up treating their first wives like crap because they felt like it. Not that Islam allows treating your wives differently as the biggest stipulation is that you treat them equally. But that's a whole other issue.
2. That is exactly my point. We need to be able to give these woman access to divorce but you try dealing with a woman who comes in to a sharia court crying every single time because HER OWN family have vowed to disown her and never speak to her again if she DARES dishonour them by divorcing her emotionally and more importantly PHYSICALLY abusive husband.

How do we go about enlightening her? How do we empower her? When in her eyes her only saving grace is that she is getting a divorce which is not immoral because it is sanctioned by her God?

I LOVE the fact people start talking about these women in Sharia issues as that is my BIGGEST concern but I find people don't actually tend to care. They like the idea of giving women freedom but don't realise that these women have ideological issues which can't be brushed away with a lecture on the pros and cons of Mary Wollenscraft or the waves of feminism. It seems like some people say "well if we ban all sharia law courts then these women will HAVE to go to a civil lawyer" but they wont!!! They will either stay in abusive relationships or they will have nowhere to go and IN fact will not even be able to remarry when their husbands kick them out of their home because they have been married by an imam who has not registered their marriage and then they have a husband who will not provide a letter stating he has divorced them and so they can't get remarried according to THEIR OWN religious beliefs.

Changing religious beliefs isn't a walk in the park. Its not about accepting women can only go to sharia court but about becoming aware that YOUR sensibilities can not be applied to these women. It's their belief system. Of the Sharia courts VERY few educated, middle or upper class people use them from whichever country their culture originates form. I would NEVER use one for divorce and I would NEVER allow any of my female relatives to. I come form a long line of liberal, educated, middle class, city dwelling women. It's not about me. We don't need your help. It's the economic immigrants from these cultures who are from working class and many times rural settings who have a culture which is ancient and their beliefs are ingrained. Such issues are so difficult because it's a HUGE system. In regards to forced marriages: How do you convince girls or boys being forced into marriages that they should send their parents to jail? It's not that easy. These people don't hate their family. They love them.

3. I don't know what this point has to do with the issue of the women. The sharia courts will be there whether they are recognised or not. It seems people are more concerned about them NOT being recognised so they can live in peace and go back to not worrying about something which will never in realty affect them than confronting the issues of the abuse these women face. It's a better headline. It's more media friendly. Let get everyone shocked so they oppose this. But at the end of the day. it will NEVER effect you. I don't think recognising them is the answer but I wonder if they are given some support then PERHAPS they will be held up to scrutiny more and be answerable? who knows?

4. No ignorance increases misconceptions. I don't think the first post is full of misconceptions because sharia courts are legally recognised. It's full of misconception because people read snippets and media stories and rarely in life do they have the chance to meet someone like me (and I am rare in my knowledge of this topic) who can lay down the issues.

5. Absolutely, but its not about rules, its about culture.If you are an abused woman who is married but not legally recognised as married or in fact not even abused but just VERY unhappy in in a loveless marriage and you do not have the backing or courage to report your abuse or to leave the marriage because your whole family (extended and beyond!) culture, and ingrained belief system do not allow you to but the Sharia law court is sadly your only personal hope then what? Please answer this question above all else!

6. Same as above. It's not about laws. It's about belief. As for "well move to a sharia country". That's not only childish but impractical. If you grow up in a country and live there it is your home. You are a citizen. As much as people hate the reality, culture changes (shock shock horror!). It is an organic thing and an immigrant minority WILL effect your culture as it ALWAYS has. The culture in the UK is not the same as it was 200 years ago. Technology, cultural influences, progress, art, music, film ALL take their toll and culture is never fixed. It is fluid. A new influence will not overpower it or change it completely, it will add and the culture will meld into something new. Without the asian culture in Britain you wouldn't have curry (imagine life without curry people!!!) or influence of bhangra beats in pop music, or many other smaller things. I am British. You can't change that. Just as these people are. We can't deport the problem. The problem is here and has been for at least two or three generations if not longer. Cause and effect.

7. Again I agree. WHO WANTS to accept bigotry and ignorance? But as I keep saying, it's not about us it's about the women and by ignoring the issue or opposing it fiercely so we can go back to our lives the real issue is not dealt with and the abuse is still there.

I would like to add that I was interviewed recently about this issue and my opinion didn't make the final cut. WHY? They said it was because of so and so but the reality is people don't want to see the real women. They just want to oppose and move on. I am not in favour of Sharia law and never have been and never have stated that I am. I am FOR a solution which gets to the problem of women opting to go to an unfair system as its is in their "free" adult minds their ONLY hope.

Instead of going ON and ON about Sharia and how wrong and terrible it is, why can't we discuss this? Or in reality is it a case of "well they're adults and should take responsibility for themselves" and hence we let them rot? or "lets just make sure sharia isn't in the news or enters my brain spoiling my lunch so I can go back to work in peace of saving my culture from tyranny".

Sorry to go on but its a very messy topic and I feel people mention the abuse of women and how banning legal recognition will STOP abuse but in reality that's is completely wrong. Not that legal recognition will stop abuse but people just like to talk without thinking or knowing the realities in my opinion and ALWAYS without trying to think of another solution.

 

[lesleyann]

to be honest and im talkign about the uk here i think we already bend over and take it so to speak all ready dont no about canada however but im guessing its the same really.

I think if you move to another country you accept their LAWS their HOLIDAYS and their LANGUAGE.. Dont move to another country and try to change that country if you dont liek the way a country you moved to works P'off to be blunt lol

Im all for multiculture when it works but it dont work that well where i live, we have segregated areas where if i walk down i cannot even read the bloody shop names and my Oh gets given dirty looks for letting a women walk next to him WTF!!?? We have areas that if your "white" and you walk into you best be well protected or you wont come out in a very nice state.

I love christmas and in p'boro our town as xmas is gettign more and more perfetic (Sp?) abotu respecting over peoples religns rather than being concerend with our own countrys main religin...

 

[redpoppy]

to be honest and im talkign about the uk here i think we already bend over and take it so to speak all ready dont no about canada however but im guessing its the same really.

I think if you move to another country you accept their LAWS their HOLIDAYS and their LANGUAGE.. Dont move to another country and try to change that country if you dont liek the way a country you moved to works P'off to be blunt lol

Im all for multiculture when it works but it dont work that well where i live, we have segregated areas where if i walk down i cannot even read the bloody shop names and my Oh gets given dirty looks for letting a women walk next to him WTF!!?? We have areas that if your "white" and you walk into you best be well protected or you wont come out in a very nice state.

I love christmas and in p'boro our town as xmas is gettign more and more perfetic (Sp?) abotu respecting over peoples religns rather than being concerend with our own countrys main religin...

It's not about changing the current laws or culture. Please read my posts so far on this topic.

As for learning a countries language, that is definitely true. That should be law unless there is a political asylum cases where people are literally fleeing for their lives in which case there should be a fast track English course which ensures they are up to speed.

As for the laws and the holidays. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone EVER complain about holidays. Just because you read some BS story in some BS paper about how some lame ass council wants to ban the xmas lights or santa doesn't mean immigrants or any non white people are behind it. I've never met ANYONE of any culture or religion who has ANY issues with people celebrating Christmas full force! Go for it! Knock yourself out! NO ONE will think its wrong or be offended.

As for changing the country you live in, everyone who pays taxes has that right. It's part of democracy. I understand there are problems with immigrants, I understand there are problems with benefits, I understand that working classes feels threatened because cheap immigrant labour means they can't compete. But to tax someone and then say they can't be part of the democracy they live in is unfair. Any citizen has the right to challenge or question laws and anyone paying taxes to our government has the same right. No taxation without representation.

As for segregation, it is a horrible thing which needs to be addressed. I agree that people who come to this country and then spend their whole lives fretting over their children and grandchildren becoming part of the culture are hypocritical and bigoted. This country has given immigrants freedoms and success and status and much more that they many times could only have dreamed about (and I mean literally only have dreamed about) in their countries of origin. Then to consider this same culture as somehow immoral, or bad or the people as not worthy of interacting with your children for fear of corruption is hideous. They need a slap.

 

[lesleyann]

to be honest and im talkign about the uk here i think we already bend over and take it so to speak all ready dont no about canada however but im guessing its the same really.

I think if you move to another country you accept their LAWS their HOLIDAYS and their LANGUAGE.. Dont move to another country and try to change that country if you dont liek the way a country you moved to works P'off to be blunt lol

Im all for multiculture when it works but it dont work that well where i live, we have segregated areas where if i walk down i cannot even read the bloody shop names and my Oh gets given dirty looks for letting a women walk next to him WTF!!?? We have areas that if your "white" and you walk into you best be well protected or you wont come out in a very nice state.

I love christmas and in p'boro our town as xmas is gettign more and more perfetic (Sp?) abotu respecting over peoples religns rather than being concerend with our own countrys main religin...

It's not about changing the current laws or culture. Please read my posts so far on this topic.

As for learning a countries language, that is definitely true. That should be law unless there is a political asylum cases where people are literally fleeing for their lives in which case there should be a fast track English course which ensures they are up to speed.

As for the laws and the holidays. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone EVER complain about holidays. Just because you read some BS story in some BS paper about how some lame ass council wants to ban the xmas lights or santa doesn't mean immigrants or any non white people are behind it. I've never met ANYONE of any culture or religion who has ANY issues with people celebrating Christmas full force! Go for it! Knock yourself out! NO ONE will think its wrong or be offended.

As for changing the country you live in, everyone who pays taxes has that right. It's part of democracy. I understand there are problems with immigrants, I understand there are problems with benefits, I understand that working classes feels threatened because cheap immigrant labour means they can't compete. But to tax someone and then say they can't be part of the democracy they live in is unfair. Any citizen has the right to challenge or question laws and anyone paying taxes to our government has the same right. No taxation without representation.

As for segregation, it is a horrible thing which needs to be addressed. I agree that people who come to this country and then spend their whole lives fretting over their children and grandchildren becoming part of the culture are hypocritical and bigoted. This country has given immigrants freedoms and success and status and much more that they many times could only have dreamed about (and I mean literally only have dreamed about) in their countries of origin. Then to consider this same culture as somehow immoral, or bad or the people as not worthy of interacting with your children for fear of corruption is hideous. They need a slap.

i understand everyone has rights and its more adding to the laws but really why move somewhere and then try to change that place? it makes no sence at nursery Lo can only have halal food i dont agree that he should have to eat something thats been blessed by a certain relign that he is not part of but its forced upon him because he goes to nursery their is no other option because there is no packed lunches because what if the food is off or someone who;s only allowed to eat halal eats his food. Yes alot of what is in papers is BS and its bloody annoying but what people see i real in there day to day life others cannot debate. Nativitys are becoming far and few between now in primary schools christmass displays are being smaller and less christmasy every year..

I have nothing agaisnt muslims who want to be part of the bigger comuity not just "their own kind" but i do have problems with the ones who want the rest of us to change to fit in with what they want.

 

[marley2580]

But how much of that is coming from immigrants and how much is coming from the nursery's attempts to be 'PC'. I actually think it's very little to do with what immigrants want (and I should point out most immigrants are eastern european atm) and more to do with what the authorities think they want.

If you're talking about muslims rather than immigrants, most of them were born in this country and therefore are British and have every right to try and change it.

 

[redpoppy]

to be honest and im talkign about the uk here i think we already bend over and take it so to speak all ready dont no about canada however but im guessing its the same really.

I think if you move to another country you accept their LAWS their HOLIDAYS and their LANGUAGE.. Dont move to another country and try to change that country if you dont liek the way a country you moved to works P'off to be blunt lol

Im all for multiculture when it works but it dont work that well where i live, we have segregated areas where if i walk down i cannot even read the bloody shop names and my Oh gets given dirty looks for letting a women walk next to him WTF!!?? We have areas that if your "white" and you walk into you best be well protected or you wont come out in a very nice state.

I love christmas and in p'boro our town as xmas is gettign more and more perfetic (Sp?) abotu respecting over peoples religns rather than being concerend with our own countrys main religin...

It's not about changing the current laws or culture. Please read my posts so far on this topic.

As for learning a countries language, that is definitely true. That should be law unless there is a political asylum cases where people are literally fleeing for their lives in which case there should be a fast track English course which ensures they are up to speed.

As for the laws and the holidays. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone EVER complain about holidays. Just because you read some BS story in some BS paper about how some lame ass council wants to ban the xmas lights or santa doesn't mean immigrants or any non white people are behind it. I've never met ANYONE of any culture or religion who has ANY issues with people celebrating Christmas full force! Go for it! Knock yourself out! NO ONE will think its wrong or be offended.

As for changing the country you live in, everyone who pays taxes has that right. It's part of democracy. I understand there are problems with immigrants, I understand there are problems with benefits, I understand that working classes feels threatened because cheap immigrant labour means they can't compete. But to tax someone and then say they can't be part of the democracy they live in is unfair. Any citizen has the right to challenge or question laws and anyone paying taxes to our government has the same right. No taxation without representation.

As for segregation, it is a horrible thing which needs to be addressed. I agree that people who come to this country and then spend their whole lives fretting over their children and grandchildren becoming part of the culture are hypocritical and bigoted. This country has given immigrants freedoms and success and status and much more that they many times could only have dreamed about (and I mean literally only have dreamed about) in their countries of origin. Then to consider this same culture as somehow immoral, or bad or the people as not worthy of interacting with your children for fear of corruption is hideous. They need a slap.

i understand everyone has rights and its more adding to the laws but really why move somewhere and then try to change that place? it makes no sence at nursery Lo can only have halal food i dont agree that he should have to eat something thats been blessed by a certain relign that he is not part of but its forced upon him because he goes to nursery their is no other option because there is no packed lunches because what if the food is off or someone who;s only allowed to eat halal eats his food. Yes alot of what is in papers is BS and its bloody annoying but what people see i real in there day to day life others cannot debate. Nativitys are becoming far and few between now in primary schools christmass displays are being smaller and less christmasy every year..

I have nothing agaisnt muslims who want to be part of the bigger comuity not just "their own kind" but i do have problems with the ones who want the rest of us to change to fit in with what they want.

I totally understand and I also hate the idea of ONLY offering halal food. It's like a school suddenly only offering veggie food so as not to upset the vegetarians or their kids. It's ridiculous!

Anyway, in terms of "why would they want to change it", I'm not talking about people moving here so they can change the country but say, for example, someone moves here and they get a job in a factory like many immigrants did in the 60s. Now the thing is, most of these immigrants kept their heads down and just got on with things BUT I think if something happened where factory workers were being mistreated or their were laws in place which meant that something very unfair was going on in regards to factory workers then I think ALL factory workers who worked in this country or were given rights to stay or citizenship have the right if they are working and being taxed to do something about it. Complain or strike or write letters to their councillors etc.

We progress as a country because of our ability to do this and to look at things and re-examine them and make things better. Its not still illegal to be gay because people changed those laws. as for nativity, thats really sad, and iwish it wasn't the case.