Sharia Law in Canada

[lesleyann]

But how much of that is coming from immigrants and how much is coming from the nursery's attempts to be 'PC'. I actually think it's very little to do with what immigrants want (and I should point out most immigrants are eastern european atm) and more to do with what the authorities think they want.

If you're talking about muslims rather than immigrants, most of them were born in this country and therefore are British and have every right to try and change it.

evan on the but they where born here how does that give people or a group of peopl eto try and change somthing that works well makes no harm to them just so it suits them?

That would be liike a group of school protesting to ban school since it does not fit in with what they want to do?

There is adapting to suit all people and then there is changing things that dont always need to be changed just so certain groups can feel more important than others by getting others views thrown away to put theirs in insted. that does not make for equlity and diversity that makes for different cultures and religns hating each other.

On the muslim bit they are allowed to build there temples cannot spell the proper word so i used temples, they are allowed their halal food even though our laws/acts/regulations state the way they kill the animals is inhumane, they are allowed to have their holidays off and to wear burka's ect and are not expected to take them off when other people would be made to remove items covering their faces.. So yes things have changed even things our laws dont agree with but that just not mean they should have everything changed to suit their needs.

Just because your born here does not give you a right to expect things to be changed for you.

 

[marley2580]

Just because your born here does not give you a right to expect things to be changed for you.

No, but it does give you the right to argue, and campaign for those things to be changed, it's called democracy and freedom of thought and expression.

 

[caz81]

Some interesting points made Redpoppy, but I still disagree with the introduction of Sharia Law/Sharia courts in countries. There are a number of reasons for my opinion (in no particular order!):
1. You mentioned about the fact that courts should recoginse all Muslim marriages, which at the moment they don't. Im unsure whether you mean polygamy or that its just marriages between 2 people that have not taken place in a registry office? If its in reference to husbands taking more than one wife then I dont see how any country should be forced to accept that. I dont know much about Canadian law but if we talk about UK law then it completely goes against what is in our legal system, I dont agree with one rule for one one rule for another, it goes against the core beliefs that our judicial system is set upon. If its the second point then lots of religions have to have 2 ceremonies (one religious & one for the formalities) so I dont see why one group should have things different to everyone else
2.Abilities for women to divorce - maybe we should be focusing more on the rights of these women so that they are able to divorce in a 'normal' court. If we accept that Muslim women can only go to a Sharia court to divorce then things will never change.
3.I think it segregates communities even more - there are already a lot of tensions in society this makes it worse
4.It increases misconceptions against Muslims (see the original post for proof of this!)
5.I lived for year in a Muslim country, I did not expect to have a different set of laws applied to me because I am a Chrisitian, if you live in a country you have to accept the rules that are there.
6.If you live in a country you have to accept the rules and laws of the country, I dont believe you can expect a country to change their laws because of your religion - there are Muslim counties that practice Sharia law where people can live.
7.I cant help but remember recently one of the top people in the UK Sharia court saying it was ok for husbands to rape their wives - I think we need to be working on equality of women not accepting the treatment of women and by allowing these courts we are.

Its a hard balance because I completely agree with keeping cultures when you move to a new country, that is what I love about the UK, the mix of people. My husband is Indian and so we are bringing up our daughter with a mix of the two cultures. Having lived in both Rural India and the Middle East where there was no acceptation of other cultures I love that we are so mixed...BUT I do not agree with changing the legal system/ adapting it for different groups of people. I think we should all live by the same rules otherwise it leads to splits in communities

Well firstly I didn't say countries should accept Sharia law. I just clarified the issues of what that meant. It's not "oh no they're throwing all our laws away and instead we'll be forced to follow Islamic law!!!" type hysteria that MANY people think it is.

Thanks for you points and if I sound annoyed its not at you but atteh horrible problem that sharia is and the fact that nothing is ever going to be done about it because people are more concerned about ideologies than the lves of women and the realities. I am very passionate about this topic.

1. No I didn't mean polygamy as I meant and suggested (although I suppose I could have been clearer) that by recognising the first marriage as a LEGAL one then men COULD not commit bigamy and end up treating their first wives like crap because they felt like it. Not that Islam allows treating your wives differently as the biggest stipulation is that you treat them equally. But that's a whole other issue.
2. That is exactly my point. We need to be able to give these woman access to divorce but you try dealing with a woman who comes in to a sharia court crying every single time because HER OWN family have vowed to disown her and never speak to her again if she DARES dishonour them by divorcing her emotionally and more importantly PHYSICALLY abusive husband.

How do we go about enlightening her? How do we empower her? When in her eyes her only saving grace is that she is getting a divorce which is not immoral because it is sanctioned by her God?

I LOVE the fact people start talking about these women in Sharia issues as that is my BIGGEST concern but I find people don't actually tend to care. They like the idea of giving women freedom but don't realise that these women have ideological issues which can't be brushed away with a lecture on the pros and cons of Mary Wollenscraft or the waves of feminism. It seems like some people say "well if we ban all sharia law courts then these women will HAVE to go to a civil lawyer" but they wont!!! They will either stay in abusive relationships or they will have nowhere to go and IN fact will not even be able to remarry when their husbands kick them out of their home because they have been married by an imam who has not registered their marriage and then they have a husband who will not provide a letter stating he has divorced them and so they can't get remarried according to THEIR OWN religious beliefs.

Changing religious beliefs isn't a walk in the park. Its not about accepting women can only go to sharia court but about becoming aware that YOUR sensibilities can not be applied to these women. It's their belief system. Of the Sharia courts VERY few educated, middle or upper class people use them from whichever country their culture originates form. I would NEVER use one for divorce and I would NEVER allow any of my female relatives to. I come form a long line of liberal, educated, middle class, city dwelling women. It's not about me. We don't need your help. It's the economic immigrants from these cultures who are from working class and many times rural settings who have a culture which is ancient and their beliefs are ingrained. Such issues are so difficult because it's a HUGE system. In regards to forced marriages: How do you convince girls or boys being forced into marriages that they should send their parents to jail? It's not that easy. These people don't hate their family. They love them.

3. I don't know what this point has to do with the issue of the women. The sharia courts will be there whether they are recognised or not. It seems people are more concerned about them NOT being recognised so they can live in peace and go back to not worrying about something which will never in realty affect them than confronting the issues of the abuse these women face. It's a better headline. It's more media friendly. Let get everyone shocked so they oppose this. But at the end of the day. it will NEVER effect you. I don't think recognising them is the answer but I wonder if they are given some support then PERHAPS they will be held up to scrutiny more and be answerable? who knows?

4. No ignorance increases misconceptions. I don't think the first post is full of misconceptions because sharia courts are legally recognised. It's full of misconception because people read snippets and media stories and rarely in life do they have the chance to meet someone like me (and I am rare in my knowledge of this topic) who can lay down the issues.

5. Absolutely, but its not about rules, its about culture.If you are an abused woman who is married but not legally recognised as married or in fact not even abused but just VERY unhappy in in a loveless marriage and you do not have the backing or courage to report your abuse or to leave the marriage because your whole family (extended and beyond!) culture, and ingrained belief system do not allow you to but the Sharia law court is sadly your only personal hope then what? Please answer this question above all else!

6. Same as above. It's not about laws. It's about belief. As for "well move to a sharia country". That's not only childish but impractical. If you grow up in a country and live there it is your home. You are a citizen. As much as people hate the reality, culture changes (shock shock horror!). It is an organic thing and an immigrant minority WILL effect your culture as it ALWAYS has. The culture in the UK is not the same as it was 200 years ago. Technology, cultural influences, progress, art, music, film ALL take their toll and culture is never fixed. It is fluid. A new influence will not overpower it or change it completely, it will add and the culture will meld into something new. Without the asian culture in Britain you wouldn't have curry (imagine life without curry people!!!) or influence of bhangra beats in pop music, or many other smaller things. I am British. You can't change that. Just as these people are. We can't deport the problem. The problem is here and has been for at least two or three generations if not longer. Cause and effect.

7. Again I agree. WHO WANTS to accept bigotry and ignorance? But as I keep saying, it's not about us it's about the women and by ignoring the issue or opposing it fiercely so we can go back to our lives the real issue is not dealt with and the abuse is still there.

I would like to add that I was interviewed recently about this issue and my opinion didn't make the final cut. WHY? They said it was because of so and so but the reality is people don't want to see the real women. They just want to oppose and move on. I am not in favour of Sharia law and never have been and never have stated that I am. I am FOR a solution which gets to the problem of women opting to go to an unfair system as its is in their "free" adult minds their ONLY hope.

Instead of going ON and ON about Sharia and how wrong and terrible it is, why can't we discuss this? Or in reality is it a case of "well they're adults and should take responsibility for themselves" and hence we let them rot? or "lets just make sure sharia isn't in the news or enters my brain spoiling my lunch so I can go back to work in peace of saving my culture from tyranny".

Sorry to go on but its a very messy topic and I feel people mention the abuse of women and how banning legal recognition will STOP abuse but in reality that's is completely wrong. Not that legal recognition will stop abuse but people just like to talk without thinking or knowing the realities in my opinion and ALWAYS without trying to think of another solution.

gosh no I dont think you sound annoyed at me & I hope you are not I find this topic very interesting and I wish I had some answers about the treatment that can happen towards women in Muslim culture. Im finding listening to your point of view very interesting and you are raising a lot of points I had not really considered. I agree that if the problem is just swept under the carpet then it will not be dealt with. I guess the ideal solution is 'elders' with the Muslim community trying to encourage change, but im not stupid and no that may not happen. Could not more integration between different cultures help, I hate the term 'westernisation' because I think there are SO many things wrong with western culture but by a more merging of the two we could start to make a change. I found that having lived in the middle east & being married to an Indian man my culture is somewhere in teh middle (for example dress- i dont cover my head but I do dress conservativly)
I would question how far to women really feel able to divorce, even in a Sharia court? My sister in law is married to a Muslim man (they live in the middle east) and she tried to divorce him (very long story!) but she was not allowed & threaten with prison if she tried to continue to.
What I guess I want to know is do you think Sharia courts truly empower women? -this is a genuine question and Im interested in your response to this. IF they do then maybe for now they are the answer, I think more talking about it will help as well.
Got to run now but interested in your responses, sorry if this makes no sense, in a big rush!!

 

[redpoppy]

But how much of that is coming from immigrants and how much is coming from the nursery's attempts to be 'PC'. I actually think it's very little to do with what immigrants want (and I should point out most immigrants are eastern european atm) and more to do with what the authorities think they want.

If you're talking about muslims rather than immigrants, most of them were born in this country and therefore are British and have every right to try and change it.

evan on the but they where born here how does that give people or a group of peopl eto try and change somthing that works well makes no harm to them just so it suits them?

That would be liike a group of school protesting to ban school since it does not fit in with what they want to do?

There is adapting to suit all people and then there is changing things that dont always need to be changed just so certain groups can feel more important than others by getting others views thrown away to put theirs in insted. that does not make for equlity and diversity that makes for different cultures and religns hating each other.

On the muslim bit they are allowed to build there temples cannot spell the proper word so i used temples, they are allowed their halal food even though our laws/acts/regulations state the way they kill the animals is inhumane, they are allowed to have their holidays off and to wear burka's ect and are not expected to take them off when other people would be made to remove items covering their faces.. So yes things have changed even things our laws dont agree with but that just not mean they should have everything changed to suit their needs.

Just because your born here does not give you a right to expect things to be changed for you.

Hi hun. I do find your perspective interesting but I disagree with a few things.

firstly, we have laws which are relative to certain things. That's why we have judges to a great degree. When a jury find a defendant guilty the judge then sentences the defendant within a RANGE so that we can take into account different circumstances.

I'm just pointing this out because we don't live in a culture which is very cut and dry and I am very happy about that. It's a very good thing.

So if laws apply to all people that is fine but when there are a small group of people who feel the law is unfair to THEM in particular it seems right that they have the right to question and change it. If you look up the idea of democracy, although many people confuse it to mean that whatever suits the MOST people is what goes that's not what it means at all. It is about being equal in the eyes of the law and having equal access to power.

This mean all individuals have to be given rights and the "tyranny of the majority" as it's called is generally seen as a bad thing.

Being equal in the eyes of the law can be tricky as different people have different lives and views and things going on. People are different. As simple as men and women or heterosexuals and homosexuals to all sorts of differences. If the law is to try and protect people's rights to practice their religion then it can get VERY messy because some things will be seen as simply wrong and many times rightly so.

For example, a man being able to divorce his wife VERBALLY but a woman going to a court and a long process to get a divorce doesn't really seem fair. So it is a messy situation.

Or like rastafari using pot as part of their spiritual and social awareness and it being illegal in this country. There are many things which aren't as simple as "this is the way it is and this is the way it stays".

People used to be locked away if found to be gay (or at least if they were found to be sexually active and gay) and gay and lesbians are a minority. It isn't RIGHT to just say "well most people are not gay so we don't care about gay rights". That's the way culture was. But it's changed and is changing and will change. Culture changes and to say no one has a right to change it means we'd still be living in times where men bumped women over the heads with clubs and dragged them back to their caves.

Things have to change and we as a society have to decide each thing on it's own merits or disadvantages not just say "well this is how it is and no one should change it" as it doesn't mean anything. Things inevitably change. What you WANT and don't want changed and for what reasons are the important thing no?

 

[redpoppy]

gosh no I dont think you sound annoyed at me & I hope you are not I find this topic very interesting and I wish I had some answers about the treatment that can happen towards women in Muslim culture. Im finding listening to your point of view very interesting and you are raising a lot of points I had not really considered. I agree that if the problem is just swept under the carpet then it will not be dealt with. I guess the ideal solution is 'elders' with the Muslim community trying to encourage change, but im not stupid and no that may not happen. Could not more integration between different cultures help, I hate the term 'westernisation' because I think there are SO many things wrong with western culture but by a more merging of the two we could start to make a change. I found that having lived in the middle east & being married to an Indian man my culture is somewhere in teh middle (for example dress- i dont cover my head but I do dress conservativly)
I would question how far to women really feel able to divorce, even in a Sharia court? My sister in law is married to a Muslim man (they live in the middle east) and she tried to divorce him (very long story!) but she was not allowed & threaten with prison if she tried to continue to.
What I guess I want to know is do you think Sharia courts truly empower women? -this is a genuine question and Im interested in your response to this. IF they do then maybe for now they are the answer, I think more talking about it will help as well.
Got to run now but interested in your responses, sorry if this makes no sense, in a big rush!!

I honestly and truly believe that despite the Sharia law system being very unfair to women that the women who use it would be stuck in bad marriages without it's existence.

it would be great and fantastic if the sharia law system became fairer OR if the woman using it stopped using it and realised they are not corrupt or immoral or wrong for wanting a divorce.

The thing is that Islam allows divorce but there are villages in Pakistan where that right is crossed out of the women's marriage contracts so that they feel they are unable to apply for one. Even though doing so is islamically very very immoral (taking any God given rights away is a big no).

On a happier note, some villages in Pakistan add the right of a woman to verbally divorce in a marriage into the contract which is perfectly allowed.

I don't know whether Sharia courts are the answer. I don't know if I'm honest at all. But I just feel that there's something that needs to be done and I don't know what that should be.

Education and integration are two AWESOME things which if pushed could easily cure this problem within a few generations or less. Can you imagine Muslim scholars going into schools and telling all the children in areas where forced marriages are common that it is against Islamic law to force anyone into marriage? Or people going and explaining that a woman has a right to add verbal divorce into her marriage contract and what happens in the current Sharia system and how marriages can become messy and disastrous if they are not legally registered? That adding these requests is not unislamic? Since most of these marriages are arranged then romantic notions don't become and issue.

But I suppose the hope is that after a few generations this will die out anyway? but in the meantime...

 

[JASMAK]

Everyone is from somewhere else, unless they are native (which my hubby is). So, somewhere, down the line, there was immigration in your family. My Nana came from Czech. I don't understand how some people can be so blantantly blind to that fact...and dis people who are immigrants. Do I think we should change all our laws to accomodate everyone. No. These people choose to come to Canada, and we have our own culture. That being said, I welcome immigration and new cultures and I don't want anyone to transform themselves into something. We are a multicultural country, and it's a wonderful thing.