Short Luteal Phase?

[NorthStar]

My normal luteal phase if 15/16 days but I'm an early ovulator (CD10/CD12), and I've found that maybe Evening Primrose Oil has made me O later last month and have a shorter LP!

Was a bit of a disaster to be honest, anyway I took it again this month and didn't O til CD18, now on CD25 and anxiously symptom spotting for AF early arrival. Needless to say if it comes early this month the EPO will not be part of my regime next cycle. I'm not 100% sure it was the EPO as there maybe have been some residual BCP in my system though.

So supplements can have good or bad effect, and everyone is different, I'll see what the results are this month but I might be supplement free next time!

 

[Macwooly]

Sounds like a good plan Northstar

I really don't know what my LP or O day would be off EPO as I started it so long ago and before TTC

But you're right everyone is different and sometimes it takes a cycle or 2 to learn what does or doesn't work for you which in itself is frustrating when TTC over 35

I'm keeping all crossed that AF leave you alone for the next 9 months

 

[NorthStar]

Cheers Macwooly, I've had other positive effects of the EPO which is why I'm giving it a chance again this cycle, as you said it is about finding a balance and what works for me.
And I can't be sure it was EPO or BCP last month, whereas this month EPO is the only factor.

What I might even do is stop taking it a bit earlier in the cycle, and hopefully it will still give the benefits without affecting other stuff like o date and LP. I've never had an 8 day LP before it's been more like 16 days (which is quite a long wait!) until last month

 

[googly]

Omg googly i think you should waste no more time and speak to ya dad! xxx

I know, but I can't tell you how much I DON'T want to do that! We're a very straight english family dontcha know... it would just be - weird...

So I'm going to call that Plan B at the moment! Or C, D, E, F....

However, at some point I may have to suck it up. He does always joke about how many women he's knocked up (in a professional capacity of course!)

It may not be the easiest to see him anyway, he's in England, I live in New Zealand. So he wouldn't be able to order tests, prescribe drugs etc for me...

I'll stick with vitex / b100 / acupunture for now. Acupuncture is going to be my new thing this cycle, am excited for my first session next week!

 

[googly]

Cheers Macwooly, I've had other positive effects of the EPO which is why I'm giving it a chance again this cycle, as you said it is about finding a balance and what works for me.
And I can't be sure it was EPO or BCP last month, whereas this month EPO is the only factor.

What I might even do is stop taking it a bit earlier in the cycle, and hopefully it will still give the benefits without affecting other stuff like o date and LP. I've never had an 8 day LP before it's been more like 16 days (which is quite a long wait!) until last month

I'm divided on EPO now after reading a few of you talking about it lengthening O date... is that the consensus? Because I don't want that, I'm trying to bring mine forward if anything.

I did find EPO awesome for giving me decent EWCM for nearly 10 days straight, but then I didn't have BAD EWCM before, and in fact, it always used to be a very good predictor of ov (whereas now not so much). Maybe I'll go back to au naturelle in that department...

Always a +ve and -ve eh!

 

[spacegirl]

Worry not girls...read this:

https://www.babyandbump.com/trying-...-upset-short-leutal-phase-11-days-can-do.html

Mine was a 9-11 LP and I got pregnant at 35 in 6 months...

HTH x

 

[Cypress]

Hi everyone - I'm new to the thread, just wanted to say thanks for sharing all your experiences and thoughts on this issue, all very helpful.

May I ask your opinion on something? I have had luteal phase of 9 days, then started taking B6 and it went to 11, then 12 days.
However, this cycle I haven't ov'd until CD 19/20, so my luteal phase may only be 7 days (unless the whole cycle is longer than normal)! (This may be because it's only my second cycle post-mc, and also at the start of the cycle a scan showed a corpus luteum cyst in one ovary - argghh. Also I was taking EPO for the first time, maybe that was a mistake.)

My question is, if all goes well and a fertilised egg results, does anyone know of any way to speed up implantation (from the journey of egg through tubes to uterus and implanting)? For example, would progesterone cream be of any use? If there's a fertilised egg, but it doesn't implant within 7 days, it may just get flushed away....

Thanks in advance and good luck to everyone

 

[Suki73]

I don't think there is any way to speed up implantation -think the conceptus takes its own time. Regarding progesterone, I'm sure all it could do would be to supplement your own natural luteal progesterone and possibly delay the breakdown of the endometrium. But some of the other ladies on here would know much more than I do about supplementing with progesterone as I think some of them have done it.

From what I know aggessively supplementing with vitamin B6 can sometimes lengthen luteal phase length. My feeling is that unless your ovulation takes AGES to come on you're better off waiting for it to happen naturally and trying to lengthen your luteal phase length. EPO and B6 might work against each other in this way.

If you're concerned about a defect I would contact a fertility specialist and get serious about having it corrected.

Either way I hope you get your BFP very soon!

 

[Cypress]

Thanks so much Suki, I hope you get your BFP soon too!
I have raised my concerns about short luteal phase with both my GP and fertility specialist - but both pooh-poohed the idea that a short luteal phase could negatively affect conception, basically saying 'if conception is meant to happen it will happen'. They seemed totally resistant to the idea that a fertilised egg could get flushed away prematurely.

 

[Suki73]

Thanks so much Suki, I hope you get your BFP soon too!
I have raised my concerns about short luteal phase with both my GP and fertility specialist - but both pooh-poohed the idea that a short luteal phase could negatively affect conception, basically saying 'if conception is meant to happen it will happen'. They seemed totally resistant to the idea that a fertilised egg could get flushed away prematurely.

Ok, it may be my severe PMS but this kind of thing makes me so angry!!!!!!

'if conception is meant to happen it will happen"????? WTF???

That basically means the whole of fertility medicine is a waste of time?? If conception was just "meant" to happen there would be no interventions like IUI or IVF or anything!!!!!

You have a right to have your concerns listened to and taken seriously. If your luteal phase is shorter than about 9 days it might well be involved in a failure to conceive or maintain a conceptus. And the stupid thing is that from everything I've read a luteal phase defect is one of the easiest things to correct.

If you are not happy with the advice you're receiving - or your doctor's attitude - you should definitely seek a second opinion.

 

[Macwooly]

Thanks so much Suki, I hope you get your BFP soon too!
I have raised my concerns about short luteal phase with both my GP and fertility specialist - but both pooh-poohed the idea that a short luteal phase could negatively affect conception, basically saying 'if conception is meant to happen it will happen'. They seemed totally resistant to the idea that a fertilised egg could get flushed away prematurely.

Ok, it may be my severe PMS but this kind of thing makes me so angry!!!!!!

'if conception is meant to happen it will happen"????? WTF???

That basically means the whole of fertility medicine is a waste of time?? If conception was just "meant" to happen there would be no interventions like IUI or IVF or anything!!!!!

You have a right to have your concerns listened to and taken seriously. If your luteal phase is shorter than about 9 days it might well be involved in a failure to conceive or maintain a conceptus. And the stupid thing is that from everything I've read a luteal phase defect is one of the easiest things to correct.

If you are not happy with the advice you're receiving - or your doctor's attitude - you should definitely seek a second opinion.

I agree with Suki totally

 

[Cypress]

Yes I agree with Suki too. After having the LP issue dismissed by my GP, the fertility specialist was my second opinion, and she dismissed it as well - and I don't know who else to speak to in the medical world. So I turned to ... the internet! Vit B6 was working in past cycles, but unfortunately not my current one. I guess the only thing to do is to let it run its course, but if there was a way to give the potentially fertilised egg more of a chance, I'd try it.

Does anyone have any experience, recommendations or thoughts regarding progesterone or vitex at this stage in my cycle (a day or two past ov), to lengthen the luteal phase to give implantation a fighting chance?

 

[NorthStar]

OK ladies, I had another shorter LP on EPO check out my findings in this thread
https://www.babyandbump.com/trying-conceive-over-35/675687-my-evening-primrose-oil-findings-good-bad-ugly.html

 

[googly]

Yes I agree with Suki too. After having the LP issue dismissed by my GP, the fertility specialist was my second opinion, and she dismissed it as well - and I don't know who else to speak to in the medical world. So I turned to ... the internet! Vit B6 was working in past cycles, but unfortunately not my current one. I guess the only thing to do is to let it run its course, but if there was a way to give the potentially fertilised egg more of a chance, I'd try it.

Does anyone have any experience, recommendations or thoughts regarding progesterone or vitex at this stage in my cycle (a day or two past ov), to lengthen the luteal phase to give implantation a fighting chance?

Hi cypress, I'm struggling with the same question myself. Vitex won't help in the short term I don't think - from everything I've read you need to take that long term for it to have full effect, like > 3 months ideally. Progesterone may help IF your problem is you have a progesterone deficiency. I've seen mixed reviews on the topical application of prog. cream/lotion, I think ideally if you have found you have low progesterone, vaginal suppositories are the way to go (higher dose, closer to the required source!)

(Oh and you can continue with any B6/B-complex supplements - by all accounts they are still more than safe/still have an effect into the LP...)

Good luck...

 

[googly]

So I have a question for any LP experts! I got my blood test results back today and they're all at normal levels, including progesterone. Yet my LP is still 7-9 days.... I really thought that it would show low progesterone as that seems to be the cause of most LP defects. Anyone know of any other reasons for LP defect?? Non progesterone related?

My prog. at 4dpo was 24.9 nmol/L... usually get a decent 0.5 deg C temperature rise after OV, but it just tails off quickly at 6 or 7 dpo. I'm happy my progesterone is ok, but kind of bummed as well because I wanted an answer and something I could 'fix' relatively easily.

Grateful for any suggestions...

 

[Indigo77]

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/254934-overview#a0104

 

[Cypress]

Hi Googly and thanks for your input on my question. I'm now using progesterone cream, 1/2 tsp twice a day (says 1/4 tsp = 22mg of progesterone, so I'm using 88gm per day). I know it's a lower dosage than the suppositories, but when I tried to get progesterone from my GP for short luteal phase he didn't agree to it, so I'm on my own.

With regards to causes of LPD, you've probably seen this article but I'll post it in case you haven't. Unfortunately the article is not clear what the cure for the third cause is.

https://www.babyhopes.com/articles/luteal-phase-defect.html
"1.Poor follicle production occurs in the first half of the cycle. In this case, the woman may not produce a normal level of FSH, or her ovaries do not respond strongly to the FSH, leading to inadequate follicle development. Because the follicle ultimately becomes the corpus luteum, poor follicle formation leads to poor corpus luteum quality. In turn, a poor corpus luteum will produce inadequate progesterone, causing the uterine lining to be adequately prepared for the implantation of a fertilized embryo. Ultimately progesterone levels may drop early and menses will arrive sooner than expected resulting in luteal phase defect.
2.Premature failure of the corpus luteum can occur even when the initial quality of the follicle/corpus luteum is adequate. In some women the corpus luteum sometimes does not persist as long as it should. Here, initial progesterone levels at five to seven days past ovulation may be low; even if they are adequate, the levels drop precipitously soon thereafter, again leading to early onset of menses and hence a luteal phase defect.
3.Failure of the uterine lining to respond can occur even in the presence of adequate follicle development and a corpus luteum that persists for the appropriate length of time. In this condition, the uterine lining does not respond to normal levels of progesterone. Therefore, if an embryo arrives and tries to implant in the uterus, the uterine lining will not be adequately prepared, and the implantation will most likely fail."

 

[37Hopeful]

I have a question: What is a short luteal phase and how can it impact pregnancy?

 

[googly]

Hi Googly and thanks for your input on my question. I'm now using progesterone cream, 1/2 tsp twice a day (says 1/4 tsp = 22mg of progesterone, so I'm using 88gm per day). I know it's a lower dosage than the suppositories, but when I tried to get progesterone from my GP for short luteal phase he didn't agree to it, so I'm on my own.

With regards to causes of LPD, you've probably seen this article but I'll post it in case you haven't. Unfortunately the article is not clear what the cure for the third cause is.

https://www.babyhopes.com/articles/luteal-phase-defect.html
"1.Poor follicle production occurs in the first half of the cycle. In this case, the woman may not produce a normal level of FSH, or her ovaries do not respond strongly to the FSH, leading to inadequate follicle development. Because the follicle ultimately becomes the corpus luteum, poor follicle formation leads to poor corpus luteum quality. In turn, a poor corpus luteum will produce inadequate progesterone, causing the uterine lining to be adequately prepared for the implantation of a fertilized embryo. Ultimately progesterone levels may drop early and menses will arrive sooner than expected resulting in luteal phase defect.
2.Premature failure of the corpus luteum can occur even when the initial quality of the follicle/corpus luteum is adequate. In some women the corpus luteum sometimes does not persist as long as it should. Here, initial progesterone levels at five to seven days past ovulation may be low; even if they are adequate, the levels drop precipitously soon thereafter, again leading to early onset of menses and hence a luteal phase defect.
3.Failure of the uterine lining to respond can occur even in the presence of adequate follicle development and a corpus luteum that persists for the appropriate length of time. In this condition, the uterine lining does not respond to normal levels of progesterone. Therefore, if an embryo arrives and tries to implant in the uterus, the uterine lining will not be adequately prepared, and the implantation will most likely fail."

Hi cypress, thanks, yeah I'm thinking its something towards the third one since it seems my progesterone levels are normal. Maaaybe the second one if there is something causing them to drop precipitously suddenly. Gahh, seems like it's getting into 'obscure' territory! Need to get to the FS...

 

[googly]

I have a question: What is a short luteal phase and how can it impact pregnancy?

Hi Hopeful - there's a big question! So a luteal phase (LP) (the time from the day after ovulation, until AF) is for most women around 14 days. 'Short', is I guess anything under that, especially 10-12. 'Defect' seems to be anything under 10 days.

The reason it can be a problem is that it sometimes doesn't provide adequate time for a fertilised egg to implant in the endometrium (usually between 6-10 days).

That's not to say it's impossible though, or even that hard - there's maaaany many examples of people on this site who have conceived with LPs of under 12, and quite a few with LPs under 10 even. It just makes it a little harder/doesn't provide THE most optimal conditions for things to happen (especially the sub-10 days group).

There's ways around it though... B vitamin complex seems to be helpful to a lot of women. Progesterone supplements, other bits and pieces...