Sleep Sense Support Group!

[Poppy7]

HC - I hope you managed to get a bit of sleep for yourself in today

Hi again Babyoh. Glad to see you found us.x

Elliott was a star again last night. He went 7.30pm - 6am, had a quick feed and then went down again until 7.45am I felt well rested today.

Today he had a restful morning nap of 1hour and 15mins and this afternoon he slept for the same amount of time but kept crying out He went to bed tonight and was restless drifting of but woke up an hour later crying. I went up and consoled him and he has gone back to sleep now. Not sure what is wrong with the poor little mite.

 

[Babyoh]

Thanks ladies - some great advice there - never heard of mesh bumpers but that's a great idea...will look into it...

Well, had a very eventful night...my little one went down surprisingly easy at 7.20 (not without tears but we failed with the afternoon nap because there were too many tears and she's just started to roll on her front which freaked me out a bit...) but as she was on her front I couldn't relax. She was literally lying with her face planted into the mattress....decided to do what someone on this site suggested which is to listen to her when she was in that position to see if she could breathe - which she could - so I thought it was better not to roll her back onto her back and wake her up - especially as we've only recently started to teach her to self settle using sleep sense as I thought that would be a bit mean bearing in mind she'd done what we wanted her to!! Anyway - I ended up sleeping in her room as I just couldn't put my mind at ease...had the worst night sleep ever but think it was for the best. She woke up about 6 - 7 times....as I was in there with her (though I don't think she could see me) I felt a lot more comfortable leaving her as I knew she was okay (even after she bumped her head against the cot...!!) and she managed to go back to sleep...the first time took about 20 minutes, then every other time she went down much easier....and it's now 6.40 am and she's still asleep so hasn't been fed since 10.00 (which was meant to be a dreamfeed but she woke up.) This is the first time ever that she's gone through without a feed...makes me think that I jumped up way to quickly all the other times. Still not quite sure what's been waking her up so often?? Maybe it's because she's learning new skills and tries to practice them in the night or because it was unusual for her to be on her front?? But I take it as a good sign that each time she did manage to go back to sleep with no help from me.

Boy oh boy this is hard work but I'm now so convinced I'm doing the right thing and that it'd be unfair of me to backtrack now and keep running whenever she cries. So glad I've found this forum as I feel so cruel leaving her to cry - thanks for starting it - think it's going to be a godsend for me over the next few weeks!!!

xxxxxx

 

[TennisGal]

BabyOh - welcome! Definitely agree with the mesh bumpers...they are called Air Wrap. Well worth getting one. Sounds like it was a good night? When my DD is about to hit a milestone, she wakes up LOTS...and when she'd learned to roll over and sit up in her cot, she was awake nearly all the time! Good thing is, with the self settling, she thought 'hang on, I'm tired' and went back to sleep after a few shouts of 'look at me!'
I hope you have a better nights sleep tonight - you're like me, if DD is on her face, I just can't relax

Historrrrrrrrrrry_Girls! How are you? Good to see all is well!! We're in a similar position with naps at the moment...short ones in the cot (accompanied by lots of HOWAH! HOWAH!') and much longer ones on me and DH. We're slowly reversing it, but it's not easy when our LOs are so mobile, is it?

Poppy - fab sleeping from Elliott!!

HC - how are you?

P - how have the mornings been going?

Well, DD was up at 6:15 this morning - DH got up with her, and I lay in until now!! (She's napping) When she saw me this morning, she went crazy with joy! Was soooooo cute!!
She had two feeds last night - I am hoping, hoping that it's because her ears are getting better...as she ate like a trooper yesterday. We've got a docs appointment later, so fingers crossed!

 

[louziglambdor]

Hi again everybody,

I'm sorry to trouble you again with another question but, does my baby have to be pretty awake when I put her in her cot or can she be getting a bit drowsy? I usually finish our pre-bedtime routine with a feed on our bed and by the end of that she is nearly asleep so I transfer her to the cot and she settles herself in there. It usually takes her about two minutes as she's already so drowsy, but she isn't quite asleep yet. Getting her to sleep at night isn't our problem, our issue is with night-wakings. She needs to suckle for a few minutes every time she wakes before she settles herself back to sleep. She's getting quite good at it now though, so I'm thinking that the Sleep Sense programme might not be too difficult for us. (I hope!) I just want her to settle without the suckle.

Just wondered what your thoughts are?

Many thanks.

Lou x

 

[TennisGal]

I wouldn't - personally - worry about that. DD is sometimes awake, sometimes asleep, sometimes drowsy. I think they are supposed to be awake, but there is NO way I'd wake a sleepy baby!!

 

[polaris]

Hi again everybody,

I'm sorry to trouble you again with another question but, does my baby have to be pretty awake when I put her in her cot or can she be getting a bit drowsy? I usually finish our pre-bedtime routine with a feed on our bed and by the end of that she is nearly asleep so I transfer her to the cot and she settles herself in there. It usually takes her about two minutes as she's already so drowsy, but she isn't quite asleep yet. Getting her to sleep at night isn't our problem, our issue is with night-wakings. She needs to suckle for a few minutes every time she wakes before she settles herself back to sleep. She's getting quite good at it now though, so I'm thinking that the Sleep Sense programme might not be too difficult for us. (I hope!) I just want her to settle without the suckle.

Just wondered what your thoughts are?

Many thanks.

Lou x

The reason why it is suggested to keep them awake during the feed is that otherwise they associate feeding with going to sleep and so when they wake up during the night they think they need to feed again to get back off to sleep. So it is recommended not to have the feed as the very last step of the bedtime routine and to try to keep them awake during the feed rather than letting them start to drift off.

It sounds like she is getting much better at self-settling from drowsy so it would probably be helpful for her to start self-settling from less drowsy until eventually you can put her in the cot wide awake and she will take herself off to sleep. Otherwise when she wakes in the night, she thinks she needs the quick suckle to get herself 80% of the way there and then she will do the last 20% herself. You really need her to be able to do it 100% herself.

Once she no longer has a strong feed-sleep association it is less important if she gets drowsy during her feed occasionally. Sometimes if Thomas is particularly tired he will struggle to stay awake during his bedtime feed but other times he will go into the cot wide awake and chat to himself for 15 minutes before going off to sleep.

 

[louziglambdor]

Thank you TennisGal and Polaris, it does make sense to keep her awake. In the book it says that it's a good idea to breast/bottle feed as the final thing before sleep as it can help to make babies drowsy. So I'm a little confused. What you're saying makes absolute sense though. Maybe I will breastfeed for now as the final thing pre-bed but will make sure that she's not getting very drowsy, it says to tickle her feet or something. We'll see how we get on with that, and then my partner has another week off work mid-Sept so we can always try the full-awake version then with a feed followed by something else. The final feed of the day doesn't always make Indy drowsy, sometimes we have to walk/rock her after, so at least on the days when she is wide-awake after her milk we can try her straight in her cot then.

Again, thank you for all of your advice, and sorry for my constant irritating questions.

Lou x

 

[Babyoh]

Hi ladies...

Just feel I need a bit of encouragement....my husband just put my little one down (we take it in turns) and she's been really really crying....she does this most nights but I guess we were hoping she would do it less and less. The thing is, I know she's tired....but sometimes I just wonder how much crying is too much...generally she cries hard for about 10 - 15 minutes...is this okay? Am I torturing her? I know it's never nice....I just really think that this is now the only way to get her down. Am I being cruel? Is this how it happens / happened with you?? She's just fallen asleep - always feel better when she's down but I guess we were hoping the process of putting her down would start to get a little easier....

Just need a bit of reassurance...I know that she needs to sleep and is better for having one so surely this is the right thing to do?

Thanks guys xx

 

[polaris]

Hi ladies...

Just feel I need a bit of encouragement....my husband just put my little one down (we take it in turns) and she's been really really crying....she does this most nights but I guess we were hoping she would do it less and less. The thing is, I know she's tired....but sometimes I just wonder how much crying is too much...generally she cries hard for about 10 - 15 minutes...is this okay? Am I torturing her? I know it's never nice....I just really think that this is now the only way to get her down. Am I being cruel? Is this how it happens / happened with you?? She's just fallen asleep - always feel better when she's down but I guess we were hoping the process of putting her down would start to get a little easier....

Just need a bit of reassurance...I know that she needs to sleep and is better for having one so surely this is the right thing to do?

Thanks guys xx

It will get easier hun, honestly. Thomas very rarely cries now going to sleep so if he does cry I know that there is something wrong (usually a dirty nappy at the moment, he seems to have developed a bad habit of pooing at naptime but that's another story). He did cry at the start though, it used to break my heart. How many nights have you done so far?

Also - is she getting enough sleep during the day and going to bed before she gets overtired? If Thomas is too tired then he still finds it so difficult to settle.

 

[history_girls]

Babyoh - Hope it isn't too late to send big and massive encouragement. Phoebe's record for crying at bedtime was 90 minutes - I cried for about 80 of them too. 15 mins sounds not too bad for starting off. It will get less as she learns what is happening. Polaris made a good point about going to bed too tired - my LO only cries now at bedtime if she is too tired. I sometimes took a wordsearch to do with one hand and stroked her head occassionally with the other. This helped me not to give in and cuddle her to sleep - after all 20 mins of crying and then get cuddles is cruel, the way you are doing it isn't that horrible in the long term. Phoebe still loves me and i did it to her!!!!!



louziglambdor - We leave the main overhead light on for last feed before bed to keep her awake (not such an issue now) and then turn it off as we go. She just rolls over now as we leave her.

TG!!!!!!! so long! Mobility has its downsides definately!

Well today was nap boot camp and she was an angel at it! OH suggested to treat just like bedtime with the exception of in her travel cot (for newbies my lo naps in a travel cot downstairs as when it is term time she is with a childminder and this is how she sleeps there). We drew the curtains, kissed her and popped her down. Morning nap - no noise or standing straight to sleep. Afternoon nap - we had standing, stealing toys of cupboard etc... but I went in, put her back down, gave her nunu and off she went for 90 mins. I did do something naughty and put her v shape feeding pillow that we snuggle with in her cot and she was snuggled in it. so quite chuffed

It has been a lovely day today - nothing to do but potter and play and practice walking but making slow progress

 

[hivechild]

Hi all!

Last night was better for Ronan. He only woke the once at 3 for a feed and then slept until almost 7 so I got up with him just after 7. He got plenty of sleep but as is always the way, I did a lot of being awake and staring at the ceiling!

Naps were better today too. I feel like I'm cursing myself now by admitting it but ah well, he'll either sleep or he won't, right?

Anyway, we're leaving on vacation next Saturday so I'm starting to get a bit apprehensive about that. He's going to be sleeping in his Arm's Reach Co-Sleeper which we have set up as a playpen downstairs now. He has occasional naps in there late in the afternoon, but nothing consistent. I'm considering moving it up into his room to put him down for naps this week, and even trying a few nights in there so he's used to it. What do you ladies think? I know it doesn't guarantee he'll sleep well while we're away, but I'd like him to hopefully at least be familiar with sleeping in it.

Oops, hubby's dragging me away to go watch a movie so I'll have to cut this short!

 

[Babyoh]

Thanks so much, Polaris and history_girls.....yeah, I think I need to keep looking longterm - and overtiredness could also be an issue as naps are really hit and miss at the moment.

Another quick one if you don't mind....assuming that some of you have dropped the night feed, how did you do it...I mean, how did you know your babies didn't need a feed if and when they woke? Was it a case of leaving them (if so, for how long?) or did they just begin to sleep through naturally? Or did you just listen to the cry to work it out or assume that if they've woken and are crying and haven't fed for a certain period of time they must be hungry??? Tess wakes up a couple of times in the night...I'm now trying to leave her as I've noticed she does get herself back to sleep after about 10 - 15 minutes - I just never know if I'm leaving her too long or not long enough on the occasions that I do feed her...I just know that it's fairer to her if I'm consistent and don't know whether feeding her or not feeding her is the better option.

I'm just re-reading this and feeling a bit of a fool...after all, she's my baby and I know her better than you guys (at least I hope I do!!!!) I suppose I just want to know how you did it, although of course every baby's different....!!

Hope you all had a good night's sleep....

xxx

 

[louziglambdor]

Hi all,

Well, we completed our first night of Sleep Sense fairly successfully. Indy had her last feed but was still wide awake so we had to put her in her cot like that. She cried for 35 minutes before she went to sleep, which was pretty good as we expected longer. She woke three hours later and I fed her as I thought her throat must be really sore from all the screaming. Also, I feed her every 3-4 hours during the day so am happy to continue with that during the night for now. She slept then until her next feed. She woke up an hour later and we did the whole Sleep Sense routine again until she settled, which miraculously only took 10 minutes! I fed her at 6am and then she slept a bit longer, woke, settled herself after 10 minutes again, and then 20 minutes later she was wide-eyed and we were all up for the day.

So not bad really. I know that I'm feeding her quite regularly throughout the night at the moment, but it's a huge improvement on every hour which we were doing! And when she does feed she really guzzles so she must be hungry. I think she's going through a growth spurt. I'm going to do the same tonight, and then tomorrow increase feeding times to every 4 hours. And mid-week every 5 hours. She's 5 months old next week so I know she can go through the night without feeding, in theory, but she has never had to do it and does seem to be hungry. She fed twice last night with another early morning one at 6am, but within the next few days I will try to get that down to once, with an early morning feed, or twice throughout the whole night until she wakes for the day.

Does this sound reasonable?

I'm really surprised how well last night went....I was expecting absolute mayhem! x

 

[louziglambdor]

p.s. Also, I didn't feed her to sleep, I made sure I tickled her feet, stroked her face, talked to her, to keep her as awake as I could.

 

[louziglambdor]

Thanks so much, Polaris and history_girls.....yeah, I think I need to keep looking longterm - and overtiredness could also be an issue as naps are really hit and miss at the moment.

Another quick one if you don't mind....assuming that some of you have dropped the night feed, how did you do it...I mean, how did you know your babies didn't need a feed if and when they woke? Was it a case of leaving them (if so, for how long?) or did they just begin to sleep through naturally? Or did you just listen to the cry to work it out or assume that if they've woken and are crying and haven't fed for a certain period of time they must be hungry??? Tess wakes up a couple of times in the night...I'm now trying to leave her as I've noticed she does get herself back to sleep after about 10 - 15 minutes - I just never know if I'm leaving her too long or not long enough on the occasions that I do feed her...I just know that it's fairer to her if I'm consistent and don't know whether feeding her or not feeding her is the better option.

I'm just re-reading this and feeling a bit of a fool...after all, she's my baby and I know her better than you guys (at least I hope I do!!!!) I suppose I just want to know how you did it, although of course every baby's different....!!

Hope you all had a good night's sleep....

xxx

This is a really good question as I am wondering the same. I know Indy was hungry in the night as she guzzled loads of milk down but how do we know when to feed/not feed generally. (As you only really know once you start feeding).

 

[polaris]

Hi everyone.

The whole feeding/not feeding issue is a real dilemma. I don't have any good answers really. Some of the girls have had great success in cutting out night feeds but I am a big softie and still sometimes end up feeding him if he wakes. For example, last night he woke up at 2.30 due to some idiot beeping their car horn for ages. It woke me too and I was totally parched when I woke and then thought Thomas might be thirsty too so rather than go downstairs and get him water I just ended up feeding him. That is definitely not what is recommended by sleep sense as he sleeps through now most of the time and definitely doesn't need a feed just because a car horn woke him up.

Having said that, what I normally did was wait for a bit and try to judge by the sound of his cry whether he was hungry or just pissed off that he was awake and didn't want to be. At the start, I set time limits of three hours between feeds and planned to gradually extend the time limit. Then he started only waking once for a feed so I was happy to feed him once but would try to resettle him without feeding if he woke too early or woke a second time. But sometimes I still ended up feeding him twice if he really wouldn't settle after 10/15 minutes (as he normally did go back to sleep within this time period).

I think it's a bit of a grey area, it depends on a lot of different factors - the age/weight of your baby obviously, but also how many times they are waking for a feed, how strongly you feel about wanting to cut out the night feeds, whether they seem to be confused by being fed sometimes and not at other times, whether they seem genuinely hungry when you feed them at night or whether they are just comfort sucking or taking a very small amount, etc. I think there is a lot of perceived pressure to cut out night feeds and get baby sleeping through but if they are generally sleeping well and go back to sleep quickly and easily after a night feed then in my experience sometimes it is easier just to feed them. Anyway Thomas has pretty much dropped all of his night feeds by himself without much encouragement from me (which is a relief to be honest!!).

 

[Babyoh]

Louziglambdor - it's tricky hey? Especially when you start thinking that you really ought to know your baby by now!! But if it isn't one thing it's another - and I'm guessing things are only going to get more confusing when teething comes into play (although by then I guess it'll be pretty obvious what the issue is...)


Seems I'm quite similar in my thinking, Polaris....to be honest, I'm more than happy to feed Tess once in the night - I suppose I just don't want to confuse her as if she wakes too early I won't, whereas if I think she could be due a feed I tend to 'give in' (probably not the right terminology...) I guess it's just a case of waiting and then if she's not settle within a certain time limit (or on the way to settling) then it's a good idea to feed. To be honest, she is so much better than what she was....I've now got the confidence that if I feed her in the middle of the night then put her down (awake, but drowsy) she'll cry out for less then a minute before she settles, which means, with feeding, I only have to be up for about 20 minutes...(I say I only have to be up as in reality I'm up so often what with checking on her that I'm up a lot more than that....but that's not her fault!!)

She went down pretty easily (lots of hard crying but only for about 10 minutes) for her nap today....she's still down now so I really think it's beginning to work...but I'll say it again - I'm so so pleased I found this forum!! There's been so many posts I've read about not letting your baby cry before 6 months - which is obviously what we all want!! - but sometimes in reality it just doesn't work that way and I really feel we're doing the best for our little ones....

Hope all's well with everyone and thanks so much for all your advice - feel like as a new sleep sense convert I'm sort of hijacking the forum...!!

xx

 

[louziglambdor]

I agree with you both, I'm happy to feed Indy during the night, I would hate to think of her laying there hungry! I'm going to do what Polaris did and feed her every 3-4 hours and if she wakes in between then we will go through the settling routine without a feed. I don't even mind if she still wakes for a (single) feed in the night at one year old if it turns out that way, but I do want to reduce night-feeds from what they were, which was hourly. Perhaps I'll extend feeding times to an extra hour in between per week, maybe my goal of having Indy feed every 5 hours by midweek is a bit too fast a change for her. And unrealistic!

It is a really grey area and yep, Babyoh, definitely a tricky one! Thank you for your thoughts on this, this forum is a real godsend. x

 

[TennisGal]

DD still has a night feed - but we've cut down from several! As it stands, she seems pretty hungry...and so we're going with it for the time being.

We cut down from several by realising DD was just waking up and a bit grumpy, rather than hungry, and she cut several out pretty easily.

However, am not sure she will want to lose this one!

 

[history_girls]

Smashing night last night for us and naps have been a bit tricky as we were out partying all afternoon (my nephew was 6) and when we got back nap boot camp started but it was already 3.45 so I gave in and had a nap with her - a beautiful snuggle but OH was a little cross!

The night feed - I FF (only one on here who does i think?) and when we started this at about 4 months she was down to one feed a night which she didn't drop until 6 months. She always gobbled down her bottle and went straight back in the middle of the night it tended to be the first bit of the night she was trouble. She fed every 3-4 hours during the day so if she fed at 7 I would not offer food until at least 10 then not to 2am. Also i think her cry was different for food than generally grizzle. When she finally went through one night I just stopped offering the night feed. that first week was panic ridden. We said if within 30 mins she is not back asleep we fed - but she did every time. I did top her up for 2-3 weeks with an extra day feed.

Also - we always (with oh restraining me normally) left her 5 minutes befor going to her - 50% of the time early on she would go back.