Smoking while pregnant.. is it child abuse?

[Lightworker]

I am not judging anybody. I did not say someone is BAD for smoking. My stance is this -
The actual act of smoking during pregnancy has been proven to cause harm in the foetus. (Do we all agree?)
The definition of child abuse is "an act which brings harm to the child physically or emotionally. (Do we all agree?)
Therefore, smoking during pregnancy would be classed as child abuse but for the absurd fact that unborn children are not considered to be beings.
All emotion to one side,

 

[Lightworker]

If you feed your 1 minute old baby a cocktail of the toxins in a cigarette, you will without a doubt be guilty of child abuse, but if you smoke a cigarette 1 minute before the actual birth, you are not. All emotions and personal feelings aside, but does that make an ounce of sense?

 

[PeanutBean]

Marley's last post said exactly what I wanted to say last night had I not had a migraine instead.

I am sure no-one is under any illusions that smoking whilst pregnant is a bad thing however where this debate has turned is to really be about the rights of the unborn child. My first post addressed that issue with the current position and I'm afraid I agree with it. I cannot see any practical way in which a foetus (or embryo or perhaps even eggs?) can be protected at the expense of the mother. It is nonsensical. Marley is right to question where we would draw the line. Drinking in pregnancy - much uncertain research as to how much damage can be caused. Obese mothers - plenty of risk for their children in all their life chances. How about mothers trying to end their pregnancy? We can't go there in this forum but the argument about protection of the foetus would necessarily take a pro-life stance.

I cannot see how any change in the policy could be implemented or enforced. A mother is not just a vessel for a child. Until 24 weeks that baby could not survive without her so do we say it can have rights after the point of viability? Perhaps smoking mothers should be prosecuted and spend time in jail - that would help the child, not. Perhaps smoking mothers should have their babies removed by surgery at 24 weeks for protection? I'm sorry but to lose the rights of a living independent person on the basis of what remains a lifestyle choice in favour of a foetus that mostly cannot survive outside is simply ludicrous. It must be this way as it's unworkable any other. Once the baby is born then society gets to dictate how much intervention is considered acceptable, right or wrong, it becomes a democratic issue.

 

[ShanandBoc]

If you feed your 1 minute old baby a cocktail of the toxins in a cigarette, you will without a doubt be guilty of child abuse, but if you smoke a cigarette 1 minute before the actual birth, you are not. All emotions and personal feelings aside, but does that make an ounce of sense?

Well said

And a fetus being protected at the expense of the mother? Come on.....we are talking about smoking here, its in the mothers best interest to give up too. Its not impossible to give up, its a choice, a pregnant woman doesnt HAVE to smoke. In the this situation i sympathise with the unborn child, not the mother. Unborn or not they are still human and we should be protecting them , not putting them in harms way.

No one said they should be prosecuted or jailed. Frankly i dont see hoow it should even have to come to that, you're pregnant, give up. Why wouldnt you?

 

[Lightworker]

Laura - I don't have any references that show that smoking harms EVERY child. However, abuse is determined by the action/ommission on the part of the parent eg if deliberately I don't feed my child all day, the authorities are not going to wait to see if my child suffers adversly, just my lack of giving them food will be sufficient for them to act. And lets say not all LOs are affected, is that a risk worth taking?

 

[Dragonfly]

Mean while back in reality.............

mums need to give up. This banning crap isnt going to work just create more rebellion. More help for mums to quite. Will power is everything though if you cant quite for your baby you will never quit

.

 

[LoraLoo]

Well I may get shot down, but quite honestly, I dont give a hoot

Every morning when I drop my children off at school, there are a set of partents in a car, with 5 young children, windows closed, smoking away.

I would do anything, ANYTHING, I'd die, to have my baby back. I did everything right, and she died. My poor girl should be here,. And they are quite happy to sit there, harming theirs.

I don't care about the legalities, its wrong.

It may be hard to quit smokin while pregnant, but to think smoking increases the risk of Stilbirth, and SIDS, amongst other things....believe me, losing your baby is a million times harder. Why risk it?

I'd never wish losing a baby or child on my worst enemy, but if they knew what if felt like to live a lifetime without their baby, I'm pretty certain they could quit in an instant, regarless of how addictive it is.

 

[Dragonfly]

Well I may get shot down, but quite honestly, I dont give a hoot

Every morning when I drop my children off at school, there are a set of partents in a car, with 5 young children, windows closed, smoking away.

I would do anything, ANYTHING, I'd die, to have my baby back. I did everything right, and she died. My poor girl should be here,. And they are quite happy to sit there, harming theirs.

I don't care about the legalities, its wrong.

It may be hard to quit smokin while pregnant, but to think smoking increases the risk of Stilbirth, and SIDS, amongst other things....believe me, losing your baby is a million times harder. Why risk it?

I'd never wish losing a baby or child on my worst enemy, but if they knew what if felt like to live a lifetime without their baby, I'm pretty certain they could quit in an instant, regarless of how addictive it is.

your sig always catchs my eye and makes me sad, I am so sorry

 

[ShanandBoc]

Me too. Eve was beautiful xox

 

[Kimmer]

Thank you for all the replies ladies. Some very interesting, informative things have been said!

This question came about because of my SIL. She smokes, she has done with all three of her children. Her first was born 2 weeks early and had very low birth weight (he was 4lbs something!) Her second was 5 weeks early, was in SCBU for 7 weeks, couldn't breathe on his own for 6 of those weeks, he has VERY bad asthma now, he again was very small, I can't remember how small. Her third was the same kind of story, he now suffers very badly with asthma and croup.

She is now pregnant AGAIN, and not only still smoking, she is smoking more. (She had a 7 week scan, then a 12 week scan. At the 12 week scan they told her her baby isn't growing as quickly as it should and was measuring 2 weeks behind) She says her children stress her out. She's given the famous line 'my doctor says if I quit smoking the stress would damage the baby'. She texts me most days asking for me to buy her Rizzlas, tobacco.. whatever. I never have and I never will.

My question is, if she knows what damage she is doing (she is in hospital all the time with all three of her kids), is it abuse now she keeps on doing it?
Is it okay that because her baby has no human rights right now, she is allowed to do lasting damage to it? (not sure of the sex yet)

 

[Dragonfly]

Thats awful. She can see the damage yet carries on. Does she blame anything else?any guilt at all? sorry thats selfish.

 

[special_kala]

Thank you for all the replies ladies. Some very interesting, informative things have been said!

This question came about because of my SIL. She smokes, she has done with all three of her children. Her first was born 2 weeks early and had very low birth weight (he was 4lbs something!) Her second was 5 weeks early, was in SCBU for 7 weeks, couldn't breathe on his own for 6 of those weeks, he has VERY bad asthma now, he again was very small, I can't remember how small. Her third was the same kind of story, he now suffers very badly with asthma and croup.

She is now pregnant AGAIN, and not only still smoking, she is smoking more. (She had a 7 week scan, then a 12 week scan. At the 12 week scan they told her her baby isn't growing as quickly as it should and was measuring 2 weeks behind) She says her children stress her out. She's given the famous line 'my doctor says if I quit smoking the stress would damage the baby'. She texts me most days asking for me to buy her Rizzlas, tobacco.. whatever. I never have and I never will.

My question is, if she knows what damage she is doing (she is in hospital all the time with all three of her kids), is it abuse now she keeps on doing it?
Is it okay that because her baby has no human rights right now, she is allowed to do lasting damage to it? (not sure of the sex yet)

If a parent has munchausens by proxy and are caught they are arrested and it is treated as child abuse so i dont see how that would be any different. She is knowingly and pretty much purposely causing her children harm.

Just because smoking is legal and is ok in the right context doesnt mean it is ok in this one. Same with ear piercing, if i shoved a hole in Rivers hand and caused her pain and a life long scar it would be abuse so how come its ok in the ears?

 

[Kimmer]

Thats awful. She can see the damage yet carries on. Does she blame anything else?any guilt at all? sorry thats selfish.

She feels no guilt at all. She says 'my mum smoked when she was pregnant with me and I'm okay'. She seems to forget she has chronic asthma and breathing difficulties since she was a baby

She doesn't think her sons illnesses are due to her smoking. Even though her doctors have told her that's the reason. She smokes in the house with them too so they don't get a break.

 

[special_kala]

Maybe abuse is to strong away. I guess neglect would be better.

 

[Kimmer]

Thank you for all the replies ladies. Some very interesting, informative things have been said!

This question came about because of my SIL. She smokes, she has done with all three of her children. Her first was born 2 weeks early and had very low birth weight (he was 4lbs something!) Her second was 5 weeks early, was in SCBU for 7 weeks, couldn't breathe on his own for 6 of those weeks, he has VERY bad asthma now, he again was very small, I can't remember how small. Her third was the same kind of story, he now suffers very badly with asthma and croup.

She is now pregnant AGAIN, and not only still smoking, she is smoking more. (She had a 7 week scan, then a 12 week scan. At the 12 week scan they told her her baby isn't growing as quickly as it should and was measuring 2 weeks behind) She says her children stress her out. She's given the famous line 'my doctor says if I quit smoking the stress would damage the baby'. She texts me most days asking for me to buy her Rizzlas, tobacco.. whatever. I never have and I never will.

My question is, if she knows what damage she is doing (she is in hospital all the time with all three of her kids), is it abuse now she keeps on doing it?
Is it okay that because her baby has no human rights right now, she is allowed to do lasting damage to it? (not sure of the sex yet)

If a parent has munchausens by proxy and are caught they are arrested and it is treated as child abuse so i dont see how that would be any different. She is knowingly and pretty much purposely causing her children harm.

Just because smoking is legal and is ok in the right context doesnt mean it is ok in this one. Same with ear piercing, if i shoved a hole in Rivers hand and caused her pain and a life long scar it would be abuse so how come its ok in the ears?

That's exactly my thought. I have piercings, so a woman I saw when I was pregnant asked if I'd get my babies ears pierced, I said (with a straight face) 'Nah, ears are so last year. I'm getting her lip pierced!'
She went mental, I don't see the difference

Anyway, I digress. She always says on facebook about 'aving a fag and goin to bed'.. she hasn't announced her pregnancy on there (She's nearly 20 weeks) I'm sure she hasn't announced it so people won't tell her to stop smoking!

 

[Dragonfly]

Thats awful. She can see the damage yet carries on. Does she blame anything else?any guilt at all? sorry thats selfish.

She feels no guilt at all. She says 'my mum smoked when she was pregnant with me and I'm okay'. She seems to forget she has chronic asthma and breathing difficulties since she was a baby

She doesn't think her sons illnesses are due to her smoking. Even though her doctors have told her that's the reason. She smokes in the house with them too so they don't get a break.

She must know deep down just wont admit it. very sad that

 

[ShanandBoc]

Thank you for all the replies ladies. Some very interesting, informative things have been said!

This question came about because of my SIL. She smokes, she has done with all three of her children. Her first was born 2 weeks early and had very low birth weight (he was 4lbs something!) Her second was 5 weeks early, was in SCBU for 7 weeks, couldn't breathe on his own for 6 of those weeks, he has VERY bad asthma now, he again was very small, I can't remember how small. Her third was the same kind of story, he now suffers very badly with asthma and croup.

She is now pregnant AGAIN, and not only still smoking, she is smoking more. (She had a 7 week scan, then a 12 week scan. At the 12 week scan they told her her baby isn't growing as quickly as it should and was measuring 2 weeks behind) She says her children stress her out. She's given the famous line 'my doctor says if I quit smoking the stress would damage the baby'. She texts me most days asking for me to buy her Rizzlas, tobacco.. whatever. I never have and I never will.

My question is, if she knows what damage she is doing (she is in hospital all the time with all three of her kids), is it abuse now she keeps on doing it?
Is it okay that because her baby has no human rights right now, she is allowed to do lasting damage to it? (not sure of the sex yet)

Thats disgusting and its abuse, those poor kids

 

[ShanandBoc]

What i dont understand for those that dont think its abuse - If you hit a child, even once, and i mean a hit which inflicts pain and injury, its abuse right? I dont think anyone would disagree with that. Yet with situations like kimmer told us, where the children are going to have life long illness, are born under weight, unhealthy and struggling, but thats not abuse??

Come on!!

 

[PeanutBean]

I don't think hitting a child once is child abuse. Personally I don't look at aspects of life and make black and white judgements about things without first taking into consideration all the circumstances and context.

It can't be called child abuse without there being an action that can be taken otherwise what does the label achieve? I'm pretty sure that many smoking mums would get so much stick they already feel ostracised so beyond the aim of making women feel like dirt for their decisions irrespective of their circumstances what benefit would there be to labelling it child abuse?

In case it's not clear, I've never smoked and find it one of the most repulsive things people do. In the other thread at the moment I'm arguing in favour of further bans in public. My point of view in this debate is one of mother's rights which is entirely the crux of the debate when it comes down to it.

 

[Dragonfly]

I call it stupidity.