Soap in the Mouth....

[My_First]

Dragonfly, all of those links, (especially the hot sauce), had MUCH more going on than whats being discussed here. She wasn't found guilty of hot sauce, it was cold showers etc etc. What you have posted reads like a daily Mail headline, pick for shock value, and ask questions later.

The soap was 10 mins which INDUCED VOMITING - so much so that she had to go to the hospital, yes thats abuse. A quick 2 second scrub on the tongue, where is the people charged with that?

Thats what I asked earlier was there a time limit to this that made it not abuse turn in to abuse. Kinda shocking that. To me just that one act isnt good, never mind the stories in the media.

It wasn't a rhetorical question. Abuse = what is illegal, in that country where the alleged offence took place. By definition it cannot be simply defined in any other way, because it then becomes subjective.

 

[oneandtwo]

Y'all seem to be missing WHY things are deemed abusive, why.some.US states consider force feeding abuse (I cant put rice cereal in my.daycare childrens bottle, its considered force feeding and I could lose my license/certification) its because the potential that action has to spiral out of control. If the majority of parents will doing it but one time, it would have never been seen as an issue. The problem is that at some point there were enough instances of abuse of power on the adults side that caused some governing bodies to restrict the use of moith washing/force feeding as punishment.

My parents beat the shit out of me, almost daily. My dad held my.hand and beat me amongst the face with it when I ran away and was subswquently arrested, was asked about the blood blisters on my arms and bruises on my face my dad told them I hit myself! since I was assaulted with my own hand, it was not considered abuse and my parents were never caught. Many instances of this happened in my child hood, my parents would hold newspaper over me while they ebat me with a wooden spoon, in our state if you dont leave a mark its not abuse.therefore you cannot be charged. Clever huh? Just cause someone doeamt get caught/charged does not mean they are.not abusive. Saying it is not abusive because "most" parents dont over soap is bullshit. My parents told people we wefe jist spanked, that we exaggerated what was happening to us. Other than the few accounts on here(whcih is hardly enough to base an entire opinion on the amtter off of) there is no way of knowing what people do in their homes. Like I have stated multiple timea, but am ignored soap on the mouth is abuse by the DEFINITION of the word, regardless of whatever emotional crap you want to add into that word it has a definition and is not used incorrectly in this thread.

Me? I was made to basically "wash" with dawn dish soap. Abusive? Oh I think so.

Since our parents used.this method, apparently it makes it okay cause thats how it was bavk then? Must be okay that they didnt use carseats.too huh? since thats how it was back then. Would you look the othef way.if you saw a two year old sitting in the backseat of a car with no car seat?

 

[Tasha]

Y'all seem to be missing WHY things are deemed abusive, why.some.US states consider force feeding abuse (I cant put rice cereal in my.daycare childrens bottle, its considered force feeding and I could lose my license/certification) its because the potential that action has to spiral out of control. If the majority of parents will doing it but one time, it would have never been seen as an issue. The problem is that at some point there were enough instances of abuse of power on the adults side that caused some governing bodies to restrict the use of moith washing/force feeding as punishment.

My parents beat the shit out of me, almost daily. My dad held my.hand and beat me amongst the face with it when I ran away and was subswquently arrested, was asked about the blood blisters on my arms and bruises on my face my dad told them I hit myself! since I was assaulted with my own hand, it was not considered abuse and my parents were never caught. Many instances of this happened in my child hood, my parents would hold newspaper over me while they ebat me with a wooden spoon, in our state if you dont leave a mark its not abuse.therefore you cannot be charged. Clever huh? Just cause someone doeamt get caught/charged does not mean they are.not abusive. Saying it is not abusive because "most" parents dont over soap is bullshit. My parents told people we wefe jist spanked, that we exaggerated what was happening to us. Other than the few accounts on here(whcih is hardly enough to base an entire opinion on the amtter off of) there is no way of knowing what people do in their homes. Like I have stated multiple timea, but am ignored soap on the mouth is abuse by the DEFINITION of the word, regardless of whatever emotional crap you want to add into that word it has a definition and is not used incorrectly in this thread.

Me? I was made to basically "wash" with dawn dish soap. Abusive? Oh I think so.

Since our parents used.this method, apparently it makes it okay cause thats how it was bavk then? Must be okay that they didnt use carseats.too huh? since thats how it was back then. Would you look the othef way.if you saw a two year old sitting in the backseat of a car with no car seat?

Personally I do feel it was okay that car-seats werent used back then, they didnt know. No doubt things will change about the way things are done by the time our children have children, and I for one wont be sitting there kicking myself because I made my choices with my children's best interests at heart with the information I had avaliable at that time.

The last line, I dont get. No one has said it is okay to use soap in the here and now, so I doubt anyone would turn a blind eye to either the soap or a child not using a car-seat. They are just saying there is a difference between then and now.

 

[oneandtwo]

Y'all seem to be missing WHY things are deemed abusive, why.some.US states consider force feeding abuse (I cant put rice cereal in my.daycare childrens bottle, its considered force feeding and I could lose my license/certification) its because the potential that action has to spiral out of control. If the majority of parents will doing it but one time, it would have never been seen as an issue. The problem is that at some point there were enough instances of abuse of power on the adults side that caused some governing bodies to restrict the use of moith washing/force feeding as punishment.

My parents beat the shit out of me, almost daily. My dad held my.hand and beat me amongst the face with it when I ran away and was subswquently arrested, was asked about thOooe blood blisters on my arms and bruises on my face my dad told them I hit myself! since I was assaulted with my own hand, it was not considered abuse and my parents were never caught. Many instances of this happened in my child hood, my parents would hold newspaper over me while they ebat me with a wooden spoon, in our state if you dont leave a mark its not abuse.therefore you cannot be charged. Clever huh? Just cause someone doeamt get caught/charged does not mean they are.not abusive. Saying it is not abusive because "most" parents dont over soap is bullshit. My parents told people we wefe jist spanked, that we exaggerated what was happening to us. Other than the few accounts on here(whcih is hardly enough to base an entire opinion on the amtter off of) there is no way of knowing what people do in their homes. Like I have stated multiple timea, but am ignored soap on the mouth is abuse by the DEFINITION of the word, regardless of whatever emotional crap you want to add into that word it has a definition and is not used incorrectly in this thread.

Me? I was made to basically "wash" with dawn dish soap. Abusive? Oh I think so.

Since our parents used.this method, apparently it makes it okay cause thats how it was bavk then? Must be okay that they didnt use carseats.too huh? since thats how it was back then. Would you look the othef way.if you saw a two year old sitting in the backseat of a car with no car seat?

Personally I do feel it was okay that car-seats werent used back then, they didnt know. No doubt things will change about the way things are done by the time our children have children, and I for one wont be sitting there kicking myself because I made my choices with my children's best interests at heart with the information I had avaliable at that time.

The last line, I dont get. No one has said it is okay to use soap in the here and now, so I doubt anyone would turn a blind eye to either the soap or a child not using a car-seat. They are just saying there is a difference between then and now.

Many have said it is not abuse, its just something they would not do. As in its a personal parental choice. So correct me if im wrong, but you WOULD say something if you found out someone was soaping a child? If its.parental choice and not abuse and we.all have different parental.views why would you comment, certainly its not your business?

Eta-amd.it was not okay.that they didnt use.carseats. Just because.it wasnt known to be more safe does not mean it wasokay! My parents to this day hold firm that they didmt know any better, and they did the best they could with what they knew. Does that mean it was okay that we were beaten and starved?

 

[Tasha]

I am sorry for what you went through oneandtwo.

I am trying to understand the rest of your points, but on no sleep I cant so will come back to it.

 

[Tasha]

Many have said it is not abuse, its just something they would not do. As in its a personal parental choice. So correct me if im wrong, but you WOULD say something if you found out someone was soaping a child? If its.parental choice and not abuse and we.all have different parental.views why would you comment, certainly its not your business?

Eta-amd.it was not okay.that they didnt use.carseats. Just because.it wasnt known to be more safe does not mean it wasokay!

I am not saying I would or wouldnt say anything. And I've not said whether I believe it to be abuse or not. I wouldnt comment to a parent, because it is not my place, but I *might* tell someone else (health care professional etc) and they could decide whether its abuse or not, as I dont know where the definition starts and ends. But then I *might* also report non-abusive behaviour, if it concerned me.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the carseat issue. I dont see how they could of pre-empted that it would be safer, just like if in years to come they suddenly said (going to use a completely random stupid example now because I dont want the point debated ) that it is safer to carry babies upside down, I wont be kicking myself, I wont be saying it isnt okay that I carried my children the right way up, because I didnt know and I made the choice to carry them the right way up with the best of intentions and with the knowledge I had at the time.

 

[LoraLoo]

I dont think you can compare things like car seats, smoking and putting babies on their tummys on their sleep to washing a childs mouth out with soap.

Things that parents would do back then (such as the above) were done because research/technology hadn't happened back then, wasn't available. A parents choice is a parents choice, whether 30 years ago or today.

 

[My_First]

I am sorry too what you went through oneandtwo.

A tap on a hand to stop a child touching something hot is a whole world of difference to clouting them around the head.

And people cannot be blamed for what we know now, laws have changed, and what has/was deemed acceptable, (UK Corporal punishment for one, death penalty for another). I find the car seat argument a little difficult for me to understand as there wasnt the testing etc. then, that we have now, and no one did know/understand any different. Just like it was advised for babies to sleep on fronts, now its backs. Things change and people can only work with what information they have presented to them

 

[chell5544]

Y'all seem to be missing WHY things are deemed abusive, why.some.US states consider force feeding abuse (I cant put rice cereal in my.daycare childrens bottle, its considered force feeding and I could lose my license/certification) its because the potential that action has to spiral out of control. If the majority of parents will doing it but one time, it would have never been seen as an issue. The problem is that at some point there were enough instances of abuse of power on the adults side that caused some governing bodies to restrict the use of moith washing/force feeding as punishment.

My parents beat the shit out of me, almost daily. My dad held my.hand and beat me amongst the face with it when I ran away and was subswquently arrested, was asked about the blood blisters on my arms and bruises on my face my dad told them I hit myself! since I was assaulted with my own hand, it was not considered abuse and my parents were never caught. Many instances of this happened in my child hood, my parents would hold newspaper over me while they ebat me with a wooden spoon, in our state if you dont leave a mark its not abuse.therefore you cannot be charged. Clever huh? Just cause someone doeamt get caught/charged does not mean they are.not abusive. Saying it is not abusive because "most" parents dont over soap is bullshit. My parents told people we wefe jist spanked, that we exaggerated what was happening to us. Other than the few accounts on here(whcih is hardly enough to base an entire opinion on the amtter off of) there is no way of knowing what people do in their homes. Like I have stated multiple timea, but am ignored soap on the mouth is abuse by the DEFINITION of the word, regardless of whatever emotional crap you want to add into that word it has a definition and is not used incorrectly in this thread.

Me? I was made to basically "wash" with dawn dish soap. Abusive? Oh I think so.

Since our parents used.this method, apparently it makes it okay cause thats how it was bavk then? Must be okay that they didnt use carseats.too huh? since thats how it was back then. Would you look the othef way.if you saw a two year old sitting in the backseat of a car with no car seat?

im sorry for what you had to go through in your childhood what your parents did to you was abuse.
Your parents crossed the line, they knew it was wrong because they lied to police. That is the difference a few of us are trying to say our parents DIDN'T cross that line.
I was smaked but never beaten, i dont think i ever had a mark from it.
I had my mouth washed out but it wasn't forced on me.
My mum should not be condemned the same as a parent who did cross that line.
Alot of things can be turned into abuse when the line is crossed, putting a child in their bedroom to calm down for 5-10 mins is not a abuse. Shutting a child in their bedroom for days on end with no food/water is abuse.

 

[oneandtwo]

Its lretty similar if you go off of what people say in.this thread, parents didnt know any better back then be it about soapinh, carseats, belly sleeping etc. eveyone has said its then and now. Then it was okay cause no one knew better, now it is not okay because we have shown there detrimental to the Childs health/safety. Looking back, does it make the practice okay? No it does not, but they didnt know any better. Which seems to me that people are using it as an excuse my point isnt coming off correctly, its not about the logistics.of knowimg the future, etc its about whether it was right vs. wrong just bevause we didnt know better doeant mean its right. You can take that back to the original post that tje 2yo swore, since they didnt know betger,, they did nothing wrong. Correct? So why punish? our parents were punished for doing wrong, because they didnt know. So why is the child punished for doing wrong? Im totally not making sense am I? Lol doing tok much at.once

 

[oneandtwo]

Y'all seem to be missing WHY things are deemed abusive, why.some.US states consider force feeding abuse (I cant put rice cereal in my.daycare childrens bottle, its considered force feeding and I could lose my license/certification) its because the potential that action has to spiral out of control. If the majority of parents will doing it but one time, it would have never been seen as an issue. The problem is that at some point there were enough instances of abuse of power on the adults side that caused some governing bodies to restrict the use of moith washing/force feeding as punishment.

My parents beat the shit out of me, almost daily. My dad held my.hand and beat me amongst the face with it when I ran away and was subswquently arrested, was asked about the blood blisters on my arms and bruises on my face my dad told them I hit myself! since I was assaulted with my own hand, it was not considered abuse and my parents were never caught. Many instances of this happened in my child hood, my parents would hold newspaper over me while they ebat me with a wooden spoon, in our state if you dont leave a mark its not abuse.therefore you cannot be charged. Clever huh? Just cause someone doeamt get caught/charged does not mean they are.not abusive. Saying it is not abusive because "most" parents dont over soap is bullshit. My parents told people we wefe jist spanked, that we exaggerated what was happening to us. Other than the few accounts on here(whcih is hardly enough to base an entire opinion on the amtter off of) there is no way of knowing what people do in their homes. Like I have stated multiple timea, but am ignored soap on the mouth is abuse by the DEFINITION of the word, regardless of whatever emotional crap you want to add into that word it has a definition and is not used incorrectly in this thread.

Me? I was made to basically "wash" with dawn dish soap. Abusive? Oh I think so.

Since our parents used.this method, apparently it makes it okay cause thats how it was bavk then? Must be okay that they didnt use carseats.too huh? since thats how it was back then. Would you look the othef way.if you saw a two year old sitting in the backseat of a car with no car seat?

im sorry for what you had to go through in your childhood what your parents did to you was abuse.
Your parents crossed the line, they knew it was wrong because they lied to police. That is the difference a few of us are trying to say our parents DIDN'T cross that line.
I was smaked but never beaten, i dont think i ever had a mark from it.
I had my mouth washed out but it wasn't forced on me.
My mum should not be condemned the same as a parent who did cross that line.
Alot of things can be turned into abuse when the line is crossed, putting a child in their bedroom to calm down for 5-10 mins is not a abuse. Shutting a child in their bedroom for days on end with no food/water is abuse.

That is precisely my point! There isnt a way to determine which parents will and wont cross a line. Which is why many places deem soaping abuse. Because we don't know, just because your parents wdrent abusive, doesnt mean an abusive person will not choose to take things too far. I cant speak for others but in all my posts I have never said anyones parents but my own were abusive. I said the act of soaping was. Just because a parent does it once does not mean its not abuse. If my parents only hit me about the head.once, or only decided not to provide food once would that not be abuse any more? Its the act, not the person. That is, until it because a pattern for the person.

 

[Sarahrei]

Well this thread has certainly gotten quite exciting since I last posted.

I do, as I previously state, consider this abuse. However, speaking as someone who comes from an abusive background I don't think it's right to say that because some other people had it worse that this isn't abuse. If you look at how some women and children are treated in third world countries it makes our "standard" of domestic abuse look minimal when in reality it is still abuse.

Why do I personally call it abuse? Because if I found out that a member of my family did it to my daughter I would take them to task over it. Yes, I would phone the childrens aid, yes I would phone the police, and I would never speak to that person again. So, because I feel that if someone else were to do it to my child it would be out of line, I also believe that it is out of line for me to do. I don't have more rights to IMHO harshly discipline my child because she came from my womb. If it's abusive for a teacher/daycare worker/grandparent to do, it is abusive for me to do as well.

That's just my 2 cents on it.

 

[chell5544]

Its lretty similar if you go off of what people say in.this thread, parents didnt know any better back then be it about soapinh, carseats, belly sleeping etc. eveyone has said its then and now. Then it was okay cause no one knew better, now it is not okay because we have shown there detrimental to the Childs health/safety. Looking back, does it make the practice okay? No it does not, but they didnt know any better. Which seems to me that people are using it as an excuse my point isnt coming off correctly, its not about the logistics.of knowimg the future, etc its about whether it was right vs. wrong just bevause we didnt know better doeant mean its right. You can take that back to the original post that tje 2yo swore, since they didnt know betger,, they did nothing wrong. Correct? So why punish? our parents were punished for doing wrong, because they didnt know. So why is the child punished for doing wrong? Im totally not making sense am I? Lol doing tok much at.once

I think i understand what your getting at lol. For me personally (im probably not going to make any sense now) Im not going to say what my mum did was right, but on the other side im going to say it was wrong either. For the times the punishment i received was not classed as 'wrong', therefore i never felt it was wrong and therefore it didn't wrongly effect me.
For your experience you knew what your parents were doing was wrong, you ran away and asked for help, your weren't given help and no doubtingly you must of been physically and emotionally effected by it.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense lol

 

[oneandtwo]

Its lretty similar if you go off of what people say in.this thread, parents didnt know any better back then be it about soapinh, carseats, belly sleeping etc. eveyone has said its then and now. Then it was okay cause no one knew better, now it is not okay because we have shown there detrimental to the Childs health/safety. Looking back, does it make the practice okay? No it does not, but they didnt know any better. Which seems to me that people are using it as an excuse my point isnt coming off correctly, its not about the logistics.of knowimg the future, etc its about whether it was right vs. wrong just bevause we didnt know better doeant mean its right. You can take that back to the original post that tje 2yo swore, since they didnt know betger,, they did nothing wrong. Correct? So why punish? our parents were punished for doing wrong, because they didnt know. So why is the child punished for doing wrong? Im totally not making sense am I? Lol doing tok much at.once

I think i understand what your getting at lol. For me personally (im probably not going to make any sense now) Im not going to say what my mum did was right, but on the other side im going to say it was wrong either. For the times the punishment i received was not classed as 'wrong', therefore i never felt it was wrong and therefore it didn't wrongly effect me.
For your experience you knew what your parents were doing was wrong, you ran away and asked for help, your weren't given help and no doubtingly you must of been physically and emotionally effected by it.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense lol

Thats also an issue, bevause other than that one instance (I was already a teen) I up until that point believed.that what my parents did was not wrong. Its not until I started growing up, went to therapy and got a degree in psychology that I realized what my parents did was wrong. Again I am not saying your parents were abusive but it is typical of abused people to believ that what they experienced was.not abuse.ESPECIALLY when the abuse comes from a care taker/loved one.

 

[midori1999]

Some posters need dragging into perspective with a visit or two to victims of real abuse.

What's "real abuse"?

It would need to satisfy severity and duration, neither which are present with soap and to a smaller element intention too. No authority would institutionalize a kid on a one-off incident like this.

You're right, in the Uk at least, Social Services wouldn't remove a child from their home because they had their mouth washed out with soap. Neither would they for other physical abuse or sexual abuse, what they would do is intervene to prevent these things happening again and if that wasn't deemed possible then they may well seek to remove the child.

However, the fact of the matter is, it's absolutely irrelevant what anyone on this thread thinks or whether they are offended by the fact that people have called this abuse, because in the UK Social Services do deem it as abusive and in UK law it is abuse. that is fact.

Putting soap in a child's mouth, even 'a quick scrub of the tongue' (just typing that makes me feel physically sick) requires either holding the child down or having so much control over the child that they will just stand there and let you. I don't feel very comfortable with either of these scenarios personally.

 

[lhancock90]

Erm, i think, if a child had been sexually abused by a parent they would remove them.

 

[midori1999]

Erm, i think, if a child had been sexually abused by a parent they would remove them.

Well then Im sorry, but that just shows how little you know about it then I'm afraid. I have worked with many children that have suffered various different types of abuse and remained in the family home. I was also sexually abused by my stepfather as a child/teen and he was convicted in court but not given a prison sentence and I was left living in the 'family' home until I requested I be moved.

The care system is not great for any child and where possible social services will try and keep children in their family home but prevent the abuse happening. For example, many parents that have physically abused their children and caused bruises will no longer do it if they are recieving regular visits from social workers.

 

[midori1999]

Its lretty similar if you go off of what people say in.this thread, parents didnt know any better back then be it about soapinh, carseats, belly sleeping etc. eveyone has said its then and now. Then it was okay cause no one knew better, now it is not okay because we have shown there detrimental to the Childs health/safety. Looking back, does it make the practice okay? No it does not, but they didnt know any better. Which seems to me that people are using it as an excuse my point isnt coming off correctly, its not about the logistics.of knowimg the future, etc its about whether it was right vs. wrong just bevause we didnt know better doeant mean its right. You can take that back to the original post that tje 2yo swore, since they didnt know betger,, they did nothing wrong. Correct? So why punish? our parents were punished for doing wrong, because they didnt know. So why is the child punished for doing wrong? Im totally not making sense am I? Lol doing tok much at.once

I think i understand what your getting at lol. For me personally (im probably not going to make any sense now) Im not going to say what my mum did was right, but on the other side im going to say it was wrong either. For the times the punishment i received was not classed as 'wrong', therefore i never felt it was wrong and therefore it didn't wrongly effect me.
For your experience you knew what your parents were doing was wrong, you ran away and asked for help, your weren't given help and no doubtingly you must of been physically and emotionally effected by it.
Sorry if it doesn't make sense lol

Thats also an issue, bevause other than that one instance (I was already a teen) I up until that point believed.that what my parents did was not wrong. Its not until I started growing up, went to therapy and got a degree in psychology that I realized what my parents did was wrong. Again I am not saying your parents were abusive but it is typical of abused people to believ that what they experienced was.not abuse.ESPECIALLY when the abuse comes from a care taker/loved one.

I am sorry for what happened to you. You are right though and it's a very good point. Children often do not see their parents as abusive when they are and in fact, even when they are aware their parents are abusive, they often do not wish to be removed from the situation, because they still love their parents.

 

[lhancock90]

Erm, i think, if a child had been sexually abused by a parent they would remove them.

Well then Im sorry, but that just shows how little you know about it then I'm afraid. I have worked with many children that have suffered various different types of abuse and remained in the family home. I was also sexually abused by my stepfather as a child/teen and he was convicted in court but not given a prison sentence and I was left living in the 'family' home until I requested I be moved.

The care system is not great for any child and where possible social services will try and keep children in their family home but prevent the abuse happening. For example, many parents that have physically abused their children and caused bruises will no longer do it if they are recieving regular visits from social workers.

That is beyond disgusting. Seriously.

 

[oneandtwo]

Erm, i think, if a child had been sexually abused by a parent they would remove them.

Thats nice that you think that but its Not always the case. In fact its a last resort., in the US there will be an investigation. In that inveatigation cps agents will try to determine how likely the abuse is to happen agaim, and the risk of other pbysical and emotional abuse. Generally, the offender is removed NOT the child. It makes no sense to punish the victim by taking them away if its unneccesary. The goal is to remove the offender

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/sexabuse/sexabused.cfm