The Really Useful TCM Thread

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, my guess is that you had a good strong O and that caused a big progesterone rise that is causing the symptoms. Hope you feel better but it does sound like it could be promising news.

 

[Sizzles]

Thank you for the insight. It never occurred to me that it could be anything physiological linked to ov. If 'strong' ov equates to 'painful' ov, then that'd be right! As you say, 'fingers crossed'!

 

[TurboTurtle80]

I wonder if Acu can help me relax for a flight. I've been debating on getting a treatment tomorrow before my flight out to Vegas. Flying is stressful for me.

 

[Jen1802]

Most definitely Turbo, I know loads of people who have used it to stop smoking and its to stop combat the stress which goes along with quitting so its bound to work with flying as well!!
Sizzles I agree with Cali, I equate painful ov to strong ov so that's a good sign!!! Woohoo for strong ov!!! xoxo

 

[Sizzles]

Well, it looks highly unlikely that I'm pg - strong ov or no strong ov. Had slight spotting on 5dpo - 'beige' in colour, some 'brown' spotting yesterday at 6dpo, with one occasion of 'pink', then back to brown again today (7dpo) with some 'red' spotting thrown in for good measure whilst, ahem... straining...
So far seems to be following a very similar pattern to usual - oh yes, apart from the fact that this is the earliest it has EVER started (in over a year of tracking)! I'm not amused! I thought after last month with the spotting not starting until 12dpo that some progress was being made, but this is just ridiculous and has made me feel incredibly cynical about the whole thing! The earliest previously was 6dpo and that was only once, so I don't know what to think now!

In other news... tomorrow is my FS appointment, so possibly some Qs will be answered, or at least on their way to being answered, by this time tomorrow.

I hope others are feeling more positive about things than me.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Gee Sizzles that is definitely disappointing. I know you are glad you have an appointment with a FS to get some answers right away hopefully. I am learning that acu is definitely not a quick fix for everybody. It's good that you've already started acu so that it will help whatever treatment the FS recommends for you. It might be one of those situations where things get worse before they get better but not everyone has the luxury of being able to wait to let nature take it's course.

Good luck tomorrow! I know you must be on pins and needles.

 

[Sizzles]

Thanks Cali!

FS appointment was ok. He's basically said they won't refer for IVF until 3 years of trying; well I came off the pill in December 2009, so that's when we're going from, even though we didn't start ttc straight away. I mentioned other investigations and he mentioned HSG and rested on the fact that I may as well have it whilst waiting for the referral, so I dropped off the form downstairs and they will ring to arrange an appointment after 'a' period (not sure that it will be the next period though as FS said 'in the next 3 months').
He really wasn't keen on doing any more invasive investigations, very much taking the opinion that if we've got to this stage IVF is the likely way forward and investigations won't help. Personally, I still can't quite see how finding something (like an uncooperative uterus for example) through an investigation wouldn't improve our chances once remedied.
I forgot to ask a few Qs, but most things were covered.
Oh, this was sort of funny! Last time (April) I had a bmi of 19.8, which I was actually quite proud of, although the fertility nurse had said I must NOT lose any weight! Any way, different nurse this time, but she exclaimed 'Ooh! It's gone up! Well done that lady!' cos it's 20.9 now. She said "Do you feel better for it?" To which I replied "No. I feel fat and I'm bloated all the time!" Still the doc was also pleased with this, adding "For most people we're asking them to lose weight. Dont' lose weight!"
He did also say that although there was no medical evidence as to why, but some ladies conceive following an hsg, which I had of course heard of, so I'm seriously hoping! (if it doesn't happen on its own beforehand!)

I think I feel ok about things. I'm pleased I didn't have an either/or situation having to decide whether to push on straight away with IVf or have further investigations; since I can't have the IVF yet, I may as well have the HSG. Anyone had it? What should I expect? (though obviously I'll google it anyway.)

Is it Cali or TT who usually has acu on a Tuesday? If so, how d'it go? (sorry for the appauling memory).

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, glad the FS appointment went well. They do things so much differently over there than here. I couldn't imagine having to wait 3 years for IVF, but I guess it's a good tradeoff since it's "free". I'm glad you're almost to the three year mark and won't have to wait too much longer!

It seems odd to me that they would do more diagnostic testing too. I know IVF is the best choice option for most people but yeah, it does seem like you'd want to know what is going on. I'd always wonder if there would be an easy fix and IVF wouldnt' be necessary.

And at 19-20 BMI you are a tiny thing and that is something to be proud of!! I had gotten down to a little under 21 BMI and was so proud, but then had trouble TTC and gained 15 pounds in hopes it would help. So now I have no BFP and I feel sloppy with nothing to show for it. Now I don't have the motivation to lose any of it! It seems like all the rules are changed when TTC. Things that are usually good are bad when TTC.

I am the one that usually has acu appointments on Tuesday, but I am seeing a new acu tomorrow, so I'll probably have lots to talk about. I'm really excited.

 

[TurboTurtle80]

Sizzles, I'm a big fan of fibbing about how long you've been trying. If you feel deep down that you need help, tell them you've never been on BCP. Nobody is ever gonna know. I think that rule is so unnecessary. It takes months and months to get appts for all the tests. By the time you're done, time has flown. So ya, don't give up lady. If you need help, what's a few extra years of "ttc" gonna do. They don't even know.

 

[Sizzles]

Sizzles, glad the FS appointment went well. They do things so much differently over there than here. I couldn't imagine having to wait 3 years for IVF, but I guess it's a good tradeoff since it's "free". I'm glad you're almost to the three year mark and won't have to wait too much longer!

It seems odd to me that they would do more diagnostic testing too. I know IVF is the best choice option for most people but yeah, it does seem like you'd want to know what is going on. I'd always wonder if there would be an easy fix and IVF wouldnt' be necessary.

And at 19-20 BMI you are a tiny thing and that is something to be proud of!! I had gotten down to a little under 21 BMI and was so proud, but then had trouble TTC and gained 15 pounds in hopes it would help. So now I have no BFP and I feel sloppy with nothing to show for it. Now I don't have the motivation to lose any of it! It seems like all the rules are changed when TTC. Things that are usually good are bad when TTC.

I am the one that usually has acu appointments on Tuesday, but I am seeing a new acu tomorrow, so I'll probably have lots to talk about. I'm really excited.

Ooh! Good luck for tomorrow then!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Went to my first appointment with my new acu. I am very pleased so far! This is going to be a long post!

I know all acus have their own style, and my acus style is very different from my old acu's. I could tell the difference as soon as I walked in the door. The waiting room in her office was filled with books, both in English and Chinese. There were Chinese tapestries and decorations sprinkled here and there. The herbs were in containers with only Chinese letters. I'm pretty sure I won't be getting any more capsules, just the real deal. My old acu's office was more modern. Another difference is that Dr. Liu has a LOT of clients. There were at least four other people seeing her while I was there. With my old acu, I was usually her only client for the day.

My new acu, Dr. Liu, is also has a Western medical degree and spent a few years practicing medicine before switching to acu. Her grandmother was an acu so she grew up with it. Dr. Liu was born in mainland China and moved to the U.S. when she was a teen.

The big difference between my new acu and my old acu is that my new acu feels like I'm going to an actual doctor--just one that practices Eastern medicine. She wore a white coat just like a doctor and exuded the same type of authority. She was very to the point but at the same time told me exactly what I needed to know. My old acu was very new age-y.

When I first got to the office, I filled out the forms on my medical history. But then the receptionist had me do some sort of heart stress analysis test. She put this black band around me and had me lay down for a few minutes. Then she had me stand up for a few minutes. She said I did great. I'm not sure what that was about, but since I passed I didn't really ask any questions about it.

When Dr. Liu came in, she asked me some questions about why I was seeing her. She asked some of the same questions that my old acu did, but she was much more to the point. She asked about my periods and whether they were regular, whether I have clots and whether I have any pain, etc. I told her they were very regular, but that the bleeding is on the light side. I also told her that I have some PMS but only mild cramps beforehand. From that, she concluded that my body is probably "starving for estrogen". She did not ask the very detailed questions that my old acu did, but it seemed like she had all the info she needed to know.

She told me that we were going to do acu, but that on my next visit I would have a nutritional analysis to determine where I was deficient. She said she would not prescribe any herbs until she knew where I was deficient because she does not like to guess about what herbs would work. My old acu gave me herbs on the first day. It will be interesting what Dr. Liu gives me next week and if it's the same as what my old acu gave me.

Dr. Liu talks fast like most doctors, but I got so much information. She was very personable. I told her I was 38 and felt like I was running out of time, but when I said she "What? that is not old at all?" She said in such a way that she was not making any wild promises and made me feel like I could have five more children if I wanted to.

Dr. Liu shared that she also had suffered from infertility and that it took eight years for her to conceive her first and six years to conceive her second. I felt kinda silly for complaining about my ten months. I cannot imagine what it must be like to try for that long. It made me feel good to know that she knows what it's like to suffer from infertility.

On to the needles, and this was really different too. First off, Dr. Liu put them in soooo quickly. There were about 20 in all and she was done in under 2 minutes it seems. My old acu would take 10-15 minutes to insert them. She also put them in different places. I didn't get any in my feet, ankles, ears or forehead. Instead, she put three on my shins. I got four in a line in my lower abdomen a few inches below my belly button. I got one in my right thumb and one on the ring finger of my right hand. I got several in my scalp. While inserting, she mentioned that so many career women have trouble conceiving. She said it must have something to do with the brain power used in these kinds of jobs.

I came in right before I am due to O and she said that was perfect. She said that the week of O she likes to see patients at least twice a week and then once a week thereafter. She said in China people go everyday. She said she knows that some people go to acu only once a month, but she didn't think that would be too beneficial, but better than nothing.

She left the needles in for 30 minutes before taking them out. I asked her about the supplements I am taking, and she said it was ok for me to take them until I do the nutritional analysis. She wants to see me again on Monday as a follow up. She told me to take it easy the rest of the day and not to eat any hot or spicy foods.

I told her about my upcoming FS appt and she asked me if I wanted to conceive naturally. I told her I'd rather conceive naturally, particularly since we'd rather not have multiples, but that at this point I would take whatever I could get. I really wish I had found Dr. Liu to start with. Deep down I really think I could conceive naturally, but I feel like I don't have time to waste if I really do need help.

Another big difference between Dr. Liu and my old acu is that Dr. Liu did not look at my tongue and did not take my pulse. I'm wondering if she relies more on the nutritional analysis for that.

I paid up at the receptionist and she told me off the record that they code all insurance bills as "lower back pain" since most insurance companies don't pay anything for fertility treatments. I am going to check to see if any of this might be covered under my insurance because if I am to go twice more a month then this will really help out money wise.

So I am very encouraged by my first visit with Dr. Liu. She seems to be exactly what I was looking for. The biggest thing is that I came out of there feeling hopeful again about conceiving instead of feeling like it is a big crap shoot. I feel like I am good hands and am receiving the guidance I was so desperately seeking from my old acu. It's also funny to me because it did not feel like I talked with Dr. Liu very long at all, but yet I got all the information I needed and more. I feel that even if I don't get pregnant naturally that she will let me know when she thinks it time to seek help instead of wandering around in the dark. I'm still going to my FS appointment to make sure there are no major problems with me and dh, but I may wait a couple of months to try IUI if that is suggested.

I can't wait for Monday!

 

[Jen1802]

Aw so glad you had such a positive experience with your new acu, she sounds a lot like my old tcm dr. She studied medicine in China and then specialised in traditional chinese medicine which she said they still use in hospitals in conjunction with western medicine. She was a proper dr too. Oh I'm positive this will work for you Cali!!
x

 

[Sizzles]

Session 8

Appointments will need to be on Fridays whilst I'm working Tuesdays as it's just too much of a rush after work on a Tuesday. Acu was fully booked for next Friday, so I'm going 2 weeks between appointments.

So we chatted for a bit and I explained how disappointed I was with the spotting coming eariler than ever. She said that she understood, but that TCM wasn't necessarily quick and sometimes little steps backwards are made before progressing (I did tell her at that point that I thought this was a BIG step back, given that it's the worst it's ever been!) I also filled her in on my FS appointment. She asked whether I'd asked about thyroid (I'm hypo) and the spotting and I had to confess that my good intentions of Q asking went out the window and I forgot!

She looked at my tongue, and actually said straight away that she saw an improvement, saying the front it 'less red' which indicates that I'm stronger emotionally. I had to agree with her that I certainly felt in a good place yesterday and have been feeling far more positive, especially with my HSG booked (I'll come back to that!) She felt my pulses and placed about 4 needles before checking again and commented that it had improved already, which she was pleased with. Before placing needles in my tummy she felt the temperature and said it was good; this is the first time I've had this, so hopefully some of the stuff I'm doing (including the acu perhaps) is working! She wasn't just making it up either - I could feel that below the naval felt warmer than it usually does. However, this may have all been undone (not sure that it works like that though) as when she'd finished placing the needles she sat and wrote notes for a bit, before disappearing off to make a phone call (I could hear her) for ages and laying there in my undies and a short-sleeved top, I actually got quite cold, which made it difficult to relax as I was focussing on being cold and wondering how they get round this through the colder months as I obviously can't just snuggle under a blanket!

So this time I had (from what I can remember): needles either side of my neck and also on the side of each hand - but these were all for some neck pain I'd been having. I had 4 in my tummy, 1 in an ear, 1 between my eyebrows, 1 in each hand, 1 on my inner shins and then further down too and I think 1 in my foot. She didn't burn moxa today, presumably because I had a good temperature any way. All in all she was quite positive about the progress being made.

The HSG
The day before yesterday the hospital called to make the appointment. She told me when the next one was, which just happens to be convenient cycle-wise (reckon I'll be cd10 - worst case scenario - down to cd6 - best case scenario). Unfortunately it's on a Tuesday again, as FS appointment was, which means time off work again. I dreaded telling my boss but she was actually fine about it; I just said 'medical procedure' and she said "It's private, but are you ok?" So I didn't feel the need to divulge anything. I've started feeling a bit crampy this evening, so I'm really hoping af stays away a while as cd10 is based on af arriving tomorrow and I'd really like to have a couple of days to recover and clear the dye before baby-making dtd ensues!

Cali - glad the appointment went well and that you're feeling more positive!

 

[CaliDreaming]

Sizzles, I guess it's good that your acu didn't make any unrealistic promises and what she said about it not being a quick fix does make sense. I'm so glad you already have your FS appt and can speed things up.

I hate having to make excuses too about what I'm doing to get off of work. I don't want to have to share the reason with my colleagues. I'm thinking about just saying I'm being treated for low back pain and leave it at that. It's good your boss wasn't nosy. The folks I work with want to know everything!

 

[fitzy79]

Sizzles, your acu does sound like she knows what she's doing. Do either you or Cali ever have your needles attached to electrodes?? Dr Wu always did when I wasn't pregnant for a "stronger" treatment. The pulsing sensation wasn't always the most pleasant!

 

[FireBaby]

I've had the electrode acupuncture several times before - but not with my current acupuncturist who's practice is based almost entirely on fertility so maybe she opts for 'softer' approaches. The electrode acu is a very very weird sensation I agree!

I think acupuncturists do certain 'patterns' with needles for different conditions. I've been 4 times now to my current acu and she has done the same pattern everytime. She's entirely focused on fertility - maybe she's figured out her pattern and it works in this case...I'm not sure.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Fitzy, I've never had the electrodes before. I don't think my old acu was even able to do it. My new one offers it, but she didn't do it to me last time.

Firebaby, my old acu used to use a lot of the same needles every single time and would change it a little based on the symptoms I was telling her. My new acu placed the needles in a totally different pattern. I guess we'll see if that makes a difference!

 

[FireBaby]

I wish I could do Acu everyday! But even going every week is kind of expensive....I don't seem to get out of there under $200.

 

[CaliDreaming]

Firebaby, wow that it is a lot per week! I used to pay $70-75 per session plus about $20 every other week for herbs. With my new one, I will be paying about $80 a session plus whatever the herbs cost. My new one has been having me come in more often so I'm hoping that once she identifies that problem that it will settle down some. I don't think I can afford to go twice a week every week, especially when I start seeing the FS.

My session today went very well and was very interesting. I had the "nutritional analysis" that she told me about the last time. It totally wasn't what I was expecting and was very interesting! I was thinking that she would draw some blood or urine and send it off for lab results. Instead, the analysis was a very detailed physical exam. I laid on the table and held my arm up in the air. She pressed against my arm and I was supposed to match her force to keep my arm steady. At the same time, she would apply pressure to certain parts of my body to see how they were functioning. When she encountered parts of my body that were weak, she noted how it was hard for me to hold my arm steady. She was able to find scarring, piercings, and dental surgery on my body the same way.

At first I had no idea what was going on, but as I got into it, I saw what was happening. She started with my uterus and ovaries. She found that my uterus was very strong, but that my ovaries were not as strong and were only functioning about 50-60% as well as they should. After she determined my ovaries were the problem, she felt around my body to determine what was going on. She found major weakness in my lower back, as well as numerous marks on my legs over the years. She also detected some sort of hidden factor as well that she felt she would be able to identify in upcoming weeks.

Another part of the analysis was a questionnaire. She said that she was going to analyze the results of the physical part with my written answers to the questionnaire and give me my results at my next session, which is scheduled for Thursday.

After that we did acupuncture. I got several needles in my scalp four up and down my shnis. Two in my thumbs, and two in my middle finger. I got one or two on my breastbone and two in my feet a few inches below the web between my big toe and second toe. These were two she didn't do the last time and ones that my old acu would often use. No needles in my abdomen at all. She also hooked me up to the electrodes this time! It is definitely a cool feeling!

After the needles were out, she massaged my lower arms and legs. She found a little tenderness in my lower arms, and a LOT in my lower leg. It was pretty painful. My old acu used to find tender spots in my leg on ocassion, but my new one really dug into it. I have NO idea what this is about.

Can't wait until Thursday. I feel like progress is being made in identifying the problem at least.

 

[Sizzles]

WOW! That all sounds very exciting and very interesting Cali!

I've never had the electrodes thing. No mention of it either, so I'm guessing my acu doesn't do it.