What If There Was No Formula?

[MrsPOP]

Makes perfect sense TigerLady and a good question to ask as more than anything I want to see the end of the BF vs FF battle and the promotion of BF without a detrimental effect to people like me.

I'll have to have a proper think about it and get back to you on it.

 

[meli1981]

to be completely honest i havent heard anything about milk banks where i live. i didnt even know they existed. i live in canada, in a small town, if we have any there probably located in big cities far away. so formula is necessary, if bf doesnt work. a question to those who couldnt bf because of lack of supply, is there medication to help your milk supply and does it really work?

There are medications that can help, but they only work for some women. Also, low supply is not the only reason women can't BF. So, while meds work for some, so far they aren't a magic pill that will work for all.

i do wish there was more support out there for women struggling to bf. bf my first seemed so easy, i never had cracked sore nipples, and she ate and gained weight fine. with my second, she was highly distractable, i had cracked, bleeding nipples, i had vasospasms or whatever problem with my nipples because her suck was so strong, and i had over production resulting in a reflux baby, i was at my wits end and having bf my first for eighteen months i felt like a terrible mom for even thinking of giving up. i got referred to a lactation consultant, and it changed everything! i loved her and she gave me more than just bf support, she gave me overall support having just had a baby. i really recommend lactation consultants and think they are highly under valued

 

[Missy86]

I wonder if raynauds made bf worse for me

 

[TigerLady]

I wonder if raynauds made bf worse for me

Yes, it can. This can definitely cause BF issues.

 

[SnuggleMum]

I wonder if raynauds made bf worse for me

I don't have Raynauds syndrome anywhere but in my nipples, and it can cause a lot of problems. I've managed it so far with heat, as my GP wasn't happy to prescribe treatment, but if it is worse this time round (bad latch can make it worse) I'll be seeking treatment.

 

[meli1981]

oh thats what its called! it would be super painful when i got out of the shower, and tgey would turn white. i also woyld get shooting stabbing pains all day for no reason

 

[Missy86]

I wonder if raynauds made bf worse for me

I don't have Raynauds syndrome anywhere but in my nipples, and it can cause a lot of problems. I've managed it so far with heat, as my GP wasn't happy to prescribe treatment, but if it is worse this time round (bad latch can make it worse) I'll be seeking treatment.

I have it in my hands and feet, I didn't really think about it when I was bf
Poor circulation is the bane of my life

 

[indy and lara]

I wonder if raynauds made bf worse for me

I don't have Raynauds syndrome anywhere but in my nipples, and it can cause a lot of problems. I've managed it so far with heat, as my GP wasn't happy to prescribe treatment, but if it is worse this time round (bad latch can make it worse) I'll be seeking treatment.

I have it in my hands and feet, I didn't really think about it when I was bf
Poor circulation is the bane of my life

I have Raynauds but it didn't impact on Breastfeeding for me. I have read that it can though.

 

[pinklightbulb]

I have poor circulation, it sucks Eamon seems to have inherited it from me, poor thing!

 

[aliss]

What would happen? Well, we just have to look at a time when it wasn't available.

Before agriculture, women gave what little they could or women shared nursing (if problem was with the mother) or hand expressed and attempted to feed babies using rudimentary cups. Wet nursing itself was for those who could afford it and more of a later thing, 'ancient' women would have shared nursing. This is still a known practice in some tribal societies - "your milk is my milk". If that failed, the baby either had a miserable hungry life, usually vulnerable to disease and death, moreso than average (let's not forget mortality rates back then), or just died of starvation.

I would also argue that back in the day (way back, talking thousands and thousands of years ago), there was likely abandonment of babies who could not feed. That is a natural animalistic instinct.

Nowadays (but before formula), shared nursing used for the poor, but more likely use of substitute milks such as goat's, cow's, and various concoctions of porridge. None of it was good enough to keep them healthy but it kept them alive. My grandmother's generation used goat's milk if needed to keep a baby alive - very sick and colicky, but alive. Wet nursing for those who could afford it, considering the stillbirth rates centuries ago, wet nurses (from poor social classes) were not necessarily in short supply. It was a good living for them.

 

[lovie]

I had goats milk and was very healthy

 

[highhopes19]

I think ivepretty much read all the replies now and quite a few of the replies are so insensitive its unbelievable .

I ff because as one poster on here may say "I couldn't be arsed" and bottles are sooooo pretty I just could not help myself . From the moment I found I was pregnant with Isabelle I'll be honest I had no intension what so ever of bf (how nasty am I ay !) I even took ready made bottles with me to hospital for after my elective c-section (yes I had an elective c-section Aswell ).

Oh well looks like she hasn't had the best start in life .










Reasoning behind my "horrid" choices, reasoning for not bf, just before I went down for op I said to oh I'd give bf ago as I wanted to give it a try, straight after my c-section I was so poorly I did not hold Isabelle for 12 hours I can't even remember what happened after the c-section (I had gd induction failed was let home and had an elective c-section 2 weeks over due as I was petrified of the pain I had experienced during induction) or our first cuddle .

This and the bullying I experienced at work whilst pregnant I truely feel caused the severity of my PND, at times as awful as it may sound I couldn't bare to have her near me hearing her cry would make me hysterical in the corner crying and frustrated I pulled chunks of my own hair out, dug holes in my arms with my nails even went to jump out the window .

The added pressure of bf was taken off me through formula, oh was able to help when I needed time to myself etc to recover. Formula I feel gave me my sanity back and I am greatful for that. Also Isabelle had colic and reflux bad

Why should mums have to be forced ?


Why don't certain individuals get back to there sorry lives before worrying about other peoples ways of feeding there kids? When I'm feeding her a can of coke and a kebab get back to me by all means .

And those that do bf why has "what would we do without formula" bothering you so much?





But I guess those pretty pink bottles we got her just got the better of me

Some people are such busy bodies

 

[Tasha]

highhopes, thank you for sharing your experience. I am so sorry for what you went through.

 

[Rhi_Rhi1]

I have to agree really, i don't really care what other people are doing as long as they are feeding their children lol.

 

[fidgets mammy]

high hopes, high five!!!!!

ive bn reading through this and im appalled at some peoples comments, cant be arsed etc.

my son was ff after an emergency section, hes always bn healthy, ive twins arriving in 3 wks, im having a section again, for lots of reasons, i wont be breats feeding the girls, again for lots of reasons. all of which are no ones business. all i know is whether you bf or ff doesnt make you the perfect bloody mum!! theres a hell of a lot more to it than that. and why people get themselves in such a twist about how others feed their babies is beyond me.

feed how you wish and respect others decisions.

 

[Nic1107]

I would like to ask a genuine question, if I may.

I often see (and certainly am one that does this!) women who were successful with breastfeeding be the ones to say something to the effect of "If you couldn't breastfeed for some reason, then formula is absolutely an important and life-saving alternative."

The grey area comes into the "couldn't for some reason." I'd like to see anyone how can try, try. I know there are some that can't even try (for both medical and psychological issues.) I have never said a woman should drive herself into PND before finally admitting defeat and actually feel quite the opposite! However, it is easy to see where a woman would interpret much of what I say as meaning something to that end.

However, back to my genuine question. It is the women who didn't have to use formula or who are very comfortable in their choice with using formula that say it should be used as a alternative rather than a first choice.

Saying this automatically implies it is inferior -- there is no way around that. That's just the truth of it. Saying it shouldn't be the feeding method of first resort implies it is second-rate. Everything the pro-BF ladies say has at least a shade of that in it. The difficult truth is that if FF and BF were truly equal, there would be no debate and no one would care which a baby was given. So, the harsh reality is that FF is a "second best" and those mothers that would do ANYthing to provide their babies with the best and have to rely on FF will feel some level of regret/shame/quilt/disappointment/anger/resentment for not being able to give their baby what was best. (Which feeling(s) they feel vary from woman to woman.)

So, here is my question -- put to those who had to FF when they would have rather BF. Is there anything that can be done to ease those hurt feelings? Is there any way to promote BF as best for both mom and baby without exacerbating those feelings? I fear there's not. But I would hope there would be!

I find it sad and frustrating that women who wanted to BF and couldn't are the most hurt victims of this debate. They were hurt when they couldn't BF and they are hurt again everytime someone points out babies should be BF. When I promote BF, my target audience is those that 1) want to BF and 2) can BF but were choosing FF out of lack of education or understanding. Women that tried and couldn't BF seem to be the worst kind of collateral damage in this attempt to increase BF rates.

Did that even make sense??

I would say, from my own experience, that the first step towards helping women who have been hurt by their experiences with BF is for people to stop throwing around dubious statistics and just take each individual woman and baby's story as the unique experience that it is. No one is being helpful if they alienate the people they are trying to help- and if someone wants to put themselves in a position of teaching or supporting other women, they need to be prepared to take that responsibility with all the frustration it may entail. Women who desperately wanted to BF but couldn't are constantly accused of being over-sensitive, angry or irrational... but those feelings are real, common, and need to be taken seriously and compassionately.

There have been times I've just wanted to strangle my computer screen reading threads by women who "just want to help" who refuse to see how they're alienating the very people they say they're concerned about. It may not be nice, but the real answer to "how can I not offend people" is to stop arguing about whether or not what you (not YOU you, the general "you" ) have said is offensive and step back a bit. I have read so many threads here where women just don't understand why they're being called a jerk, and they just refuse to listen when people tell them exactly what they've said that is hurtful.

A lot of women fancy themselves a qualified peer supporter just because they have working boobs and a willing and able baby- but in reality they have no idea how to deal with people, how to teach, how to support or counsel. Even if they have all the information and have experienced an issue or two of their own, they're pretty much just running their mouths and pissing people off. Anyone who truly wants to help needs to take the time to ask the right questions and- most importantly- realize that the moms who don't BF are just as much a mother, just as experienced, just as intelligent, just as strong and have a LOT to offer in the whole BF/FF/normalizing and promoting BF conversation.

Sorry that was long, and I hope it made some sense. I'm really, really glad you've asked this question because it shows that there really is hope of opening up a real dialogue where our voices are given equal time and importance.

 

[Missy86]

I would like to ask a genuine question, if I may.

I often see (and certainly am one that does this!) women who were successful with breastfeeding be the ones to say something to the effect of "If you couldn't breastfeed for some reason, then formula is absolutely an important and life-saving alternative."

The grey area comes into the "couldn't for some reason." I'd like to see anyone how can try, try. I know there are some that can't even try (for both medical and psychological issues.) I have never said a woman should drive herself into PND before finally admitting defeat and actually feel quite the opposite! However, it is easy to see where a woman would interpret much of what I say as meaning something to that end.

However, back to my genuine question. It is the women who didn't have to use formula or who are very comfortable in their choice with using formula that say it should be used as a alternative rather than a first choice.

Saying this automatically implies it is inferior -- there is no way around that. That's just the truth of it. Saying it shouldn't be the feeding method of first resort implies it is second-rate. Everything the pro-BF ladies say has at least a shade of that in it. The difficult truth is that if FF and BF were truly equal, there would be no debate and no one would care which a baby was given. So, the harsh reality is that FF is a "second best" and those mothers that would do ANYthing to provide their babies with the best and have to rely on FF will feel some level of regret/shame/quilt/disappointment/anger/resentment for not being able to give their baby what was best. (Which feeling(s) they feel vary from woman to woman.)

So, here is my question -- put to those who had to FF when they would have rather BF. Is there anything that can be done to ease those hurt feelings? Is there any way to promote BF as best for both mom and baby without exacerbating those feelings? I fear there's not. But I would hope there would be!

I find it sad and frustrating that women who wanted to BF and couldn't are the most hurt victims of this debate. They were hurt when they couldn't BF and they are hurt again everytime someone points out babies should be BF. When I promote BF, my target audience is those that 1) want to BF and 2) can BF but were choosing FF out of lack of education or understanding. Women that tried and couldn't BF seem to be the worst kind of collateral damage in this attempt to increase BF rates.

Did that even make sense??

I would say, from my own experience, that the first step towards helping women who have been hurt by their experiences with BF is for people to stop throwing around dubious statistics and just take each individual woman and baby's story as the unique experience that it is. No one is being helpful if they alienate the people they are trying to help- and if someone wants to put themselves in a position of teaching or supporting other women, they need to be prepared to take that responsibility with all the frustration it may entail. Women who desperately wanted to BF but couldn't are constantly accused of being over-sensitive, angry or irrational... but those feelings are real, common, and need to be taken seriously and compassionately.

There have been times I've just wanted to strangle my computer screen reading threads by women who "just want to help" who refuse to see how they're alienating the very people they say they're concerned about. It may not be nice, but the real answer to "how can I not offend people" is to stop arguing about whether or not what you (not YOU you, the general "you" ) have said is offensive and step back a bit. I have read so many threads here where women just don't understand why they're being called a jerk, and they just refuse to listen when people tell them exactly what they've said that is hurtful.

A lot of women fancy themselves a qualified peer supporter just because they have working boobs and a willing and able baby- but in reality they have no idea how to deal with people, how to teach, how to support or counsel. Even if they have all the information and have experienced an issue or two of their own, they're pretty much just running their mouths and pissing people off. Anyone who truly wants to help needs to take the time to ask the right questions and- most importantly- realize that the moms who don't BF are just as much a mother, just as experienced, just as intelligent, just as strong and have a LOT to offer in the whole BF/FF/normalizing and promoting BF conversation.

Sorry that was long, and I hope it made some sense. I'm really, really glad you've asked this question because it shows that there really is hope of opening up a real dialogue where our voices are given equal time and importance.

You are totally right

 

[TigerLady]

I would like to ask a genuine question, if I may.

I often see (and certainly am one that does this!) women who were successful with breastfeeding be the ones to say something to the effect of "If you couldn't breastfeed for some reason, then formula is absolutely an important and life-saving alternative."

The grey area comes into the "couldn't for some reason." I'd like to see anyone how can try, try. I know there are some that can't even try (for both medical and psychological issues.) I have never said a woman should drive herself into PND before finally admitting defeat and actually feel quite the opposite! However, it is easy to see where a woman would interpret much of what I say as meaning something to that end.

However, back to my genuine question. It is the women who didn't have to use formula or who are very comfortable in their choice with using formula that say it should be used as a alternative rather than a first choice.

Saying this automatically implies it is inferior -- there is no way around that. That's just the truth of it. Saying it shouldn't be the feeding method of first resort implies it is second-rate. Everything the pro-BF ladies say has at least a shade of that in it. The difficult truth is that if FF and BF were truly equal, there would be no debate and no one would care which a baby was given. So, the harsh reality is that FF is a "second best" and those mothers that would do ANYthing to provide their babies with the best and have to rely on FF will feel some level of regret/shame/quilt/disappointment/anger/resentment for not being able to give their baby what was best. (Which feeling(s) they feel vary from woman to woman.)

So, here is my question -- put to those who had to FF when they would have rather BF. Is there anything that can be done to ease those hurt feelings? Is there any way to promote BF as best for both mom and baby without exacerbating those feelings? I fear there's not. But I would hope there would be!

I find it sad and frustrating that women who wanted to BF and couldn't are the most hurt victims of this debate. They were hurt when they couldn't BF and they are hurt again everytime someone points out babies should be BF. When I promote BF, my target audience is those that 1) want to BF and 2) can BF but were choosing FF out of lack of education or understanding. Women that tried and couldn't BF seem to be the worst kind of collateral damage in this attempt to increase BF rates.

Did that even make sense??

I would say, from my own experience, that the first step towards helping women who have been hurt by their experiences with BF is for people to stop throwing around dubious statistics and just take each individual woman and baby's story as the unique experience that it is. No one is being helpful if they alienate the people they are trying to help- and if someone wants to put themselves in a position of teaching or supporting other women, they need to be prepared to take that responsibility with all the frustration it may entail. Women who desperately wanted to BF but couldn't are constantly accused of being over-sensitive, angry or irrational... but those feelings are real, common, and need to be taken seriously and compassionately.

There have been times I've just wanted to strangle my computer screen reading threads by women who "just want to help" who refuse to see how they're alienating the very people they say they're concerned about. It may not be nice, but the real answer to "how can I not offend people" is to stop arguing about whether or not what you (not YOU you, the general "you" ) have said is offensive and step back a bit. I have read so many threads here where women just don't understand why they're being called a jerk, and they just refuse to listen when people tell them exactly what they've said that is hurtful.

A lot of women fancy themselves a qualified peer supporter just because they have working boobs and a willing and able baby- but in reality they have no idea how to deal with people, how to teach, how to support or counsel. Even if they have all the information and have experienced an issue or two of their own, they're pretty much just running their mouths and pissing people off. Anyone who truly wants to help needs to take the time to ask the right questions and- most importantly- realize that the moms who don't BF are just as much a mother, just as experienced, just as intelligent, just as strong and have a LOT to offer in the whole BF/FF/normalizing and promoting BF conversation.

Sorry that was long, and I hope it made some sense. I'm really, really glad you've asked this question because it shows that there really is hope of opening up a real dialogue where our voices are given equal time and importance.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I truly appreciate it.

I think you are right in so many ways. I'd like to think I try to walk the line you are painting. I do have experience (and a degree) in education, so have some understanding about how to teach and approach each person as an individual. On this forum, I try to take each post/member/thread on a case by case basis. What I recommend for one, I don't recommend for another. And I can't count the number of times I have pleaded with a mom to not feel guilty over the use of formula.

Despite that, I've run amuck of offending before and have been berated for things I've said even while trying to tread this line. It is, admittedly, a very hard balance to strike.

I have listened, though. Recently I made a point to ask a member to be careful about the pressure she was putting on herself because it might come at too high of a cost. So, what has been said has been heard -- by at least me.

However, that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when you have the best intentions and someone attacks you for being mean, judgmental, offensive, and/or insensitive.

May I ask what you are referencing when you say "dubious statistics"? There are valid studies which point out valid benefits. Granted, there are stats that are misused and misrepresented. But there are plenty that also can stand the test of rigorous science. As a person trained and educated in the sciences, I am loathe to ignore those stats when they stand up to those tests. So, I do reference stats and have always felt that was fair...?

 

[Nic1107]

Oh, I know it sucks when you're trying to help and you just get yelled at or accused of being high and might/know-it-all/judgemental. But people who want to teach and counsel need to be ready for it; anyone who couldn't handle it and understand that it's coming from a place of hurt may not be suitable as a counselor and needs to realize that their good intentions may well be hurting the cause more than helping by putting people off. You know what I mean? Breastfeeding advocates and "lactivists" have more reason than anyone else to dislike the loudmouthed, judgmental types (which do exist)- because they're messing it up for everyone else.

As for the dubious statistics, I just meant the "1% of women can't breastfeed" bit. It's overused, misunderstood, misapplied and within a very narrow definition of "can't". Maybe only 1% of women don't produce an adequate milk supply- but that's not what we all mean by "can't". As soon as that 1% rears its ugly head, it's like being told that our reason was BS. Inevitably it leads to people stating their reasons, other people telling them they should have done x, y and z and then a fight. Asking someone if they'd like help next time should they have trouble again is a good idea- telling someone what they "should have done" when that bus has already left the station is unhelpful and can be very hurtful. The "1%" thing has become something of a smug catchphrase and it can be like dropping a bomb into the discussion.

 

[TigerLady]

I don't think I've ever even heard the 1% thing. Maybe I'm under a rock. I tend to stick to stats about the benefits and such.

You are right about being prepared to take one to the chin once in awhile and to try to understand it comes from a place of hurt and isn't necessarily a personal attack.