Attitudes to AP/NP in Baby Club...

[bky]

Better not mention banned members or this'll get locked!
I was actually thinking about a certain someone and some of the things they said in relation to some of the earlier comments. I recall clearly a few times it being said that NP was harder but it was worth is because it was better for the baby and that just kind of put me in knots. First off because it was a bit high and mighty, but it's just not my experience. I certainly do a lot of NP things because for us it is the path of least resistance. Anything else would be fighting with my baby for acting like a baby IMO. Hear that? I'm a lazy mother!

But that's not what I came back in there to say.
I know how there can be a divide between BF/FF Natural/medical birth because more often than not those are things that aren't chosen. I don't like it when people say no one can make you feel bad, or own your choice. You don't really know until you've been there and those things no matter how much you rationalize it are not what you wanted. It's very sensitive and painful and the reactions to it are very emotional, not logical. The best thing to do it just say 'I know how hard it can be, it could have been me' and move on.
But a lot of the rest of the alternative parenting stuff has to be chosen. I mean you usually aren't being forced (emotionally, physically or medically) on to ERF/BLW/cloth nappy or conversely FF/TW/disposable nappy etc. ERF might have financial constraints, but those other things don't.
I think it kind of ties back to 'breast is best' advertising. Bear with me here. Like since BF falls in with alternative parenting (gah ) that all those other things are 'best' as well and hey, second best is fine because I couldn't possibly manage those other things. la de dah.
The rest of NP/AP is distinctly a choice to me and it seems really odd that people do get upset. I mean, they must feel it isn't right for them or they'd be doing it right?

 

[aliss]

And as an aside, AP is, IMO, a bond between mother and baby. Yes, AP encourages methods to strengthen this bond and to raise baby as baby was meant to be raised (babywearing, breastfeeding, bedsharing), but at the end of the day, you can be a formula-feeding, stroller-using, crib, jar-using (FYI Sears is TW, not BLW) AP mother. You can be a fulltime working AP mother and a fulltime SAHM non-AP mother. It's a philosophy about the bond. The only real divide between AP and "modern"/"20th century" practices is the CIO issue - which is never used unless the baby is in danger from an angry mother.

So if I don't let her cry for any extended period of the time (I "sleep train" in that we have a routine, but I always soothe her when she cries), then I follow AP?? I'm kind of just trying to understand where I fall. I don't traditionally baby wear as I don't have a wrap, but I hold her pretty much throughout the day during her fussy times.

Dr. Sears has a full chapter in his Baby Sleep book about CIO, but basically ignoring a baby's cries (cries for food, comfort, security), on purpose, fosters resentment, and weakens the bond between mother and baby. It's meant to consider those who put baby to bed and just let them scream their lungs out until they fall asleep. Soothing a baby when it cries is certainly not CIO. CIO is literally that - cry it out (until you fall asleep). A baby whining and falling asleep is really not the same. For example, mine whines at 3am, 4am, 5am - by the time I would get up to go to him, he would be asleep again. It's different than those who will leave a newborn to CIO to 'teach' them. And plenty of people do it.

Much of what Sears says is to counter the popular sleep training promoted by Dr Weissbluth and Ezzo. He never mentions their names but when he talks about "a certain church promoted parenting program" that's what he means ("Babywise" by Ezzo), or "pediatric-promoted sleep training" (Weissbluth)

 

[Kota]

Sears also covers how soothing a crying baby, holding them, rocking them, patting their bum while they lie in a cot, etc, for how ever long it takes for them to settle, is still completely different to putting them in a cot and walking away and out of the room. CIO/CC is walking away with the intention of letting them cry to 'train' them. A baby knows the difference when you are there with them to when you are not.

 

[kmac625]

Better not mention banned members or this'll get locked!
I was actually thinking about a certain someone and some of the things they said in relation to some of the earlier comments. I recall clearly a few times it being said that NP was harder but it was worth is because it was better for the baby and that just kind of put me in knots. First off because it was a bit high and mighty, but it's just not my experience. I certainly do a lot of NP things because for us it is the path of least resistance. Anything else would be fighting with my baby for acting like a baby IMO. Hear that? I'm a lazy mother!

But that's not what I came back in there to say.
I know how there can be a divide between BF/FF Natural/medical birth because more often than not those are things that aren't chosen. I don't like it when people say no one can make you feel bad, or own your choice. You don't really know until you've been there and those things no matter how much you rationalize it are not what you wanted. It's very sensitive and painful and the reactions to it are very emotional, not logical. The best thing to do it just say 'I know how hard it can be, it could have been me' and move on.
But a lot of the rest of the alternative parenting stuff has to be chosen. I mean you usually aren't being forced (emotionally, physically or medically) on to ERF/BLW/cloth nappy or conversely FF/TW/disposable nappy etc. ERF might have financial constraints, but those other things don't.
I think it kind of ties back to 'breast is best' advertising. Bear with me here. Like since BF falls in with alternative parenting (gah ) that all those other things are 'best' as well and hey, second best is fine because I couldn't possibly manage those other things. la de dah.
The rest of NP/AP is distinctly a choice to me and it seems really odd that people do get upset. I mean, they must feel it isn't right for them or they'd be doing it right?

I agree with most everything you've said, especially the part I've bolded. Everyone's situation is different, including how well we cope with life (labour and delivery/bf not working) not going as planned. What might be easy to get over for one person might take therapy for another.

I also don't understand how bf falls into alternative parenting. Maybe it's because in Canada most women bf for at least a short while so it's the norm here. As far as cloth diapers go though, I just wanted to clear up, that not everyone has the option to use them. I don't. I live in an apartment and don't have my own washer and you can't control the cycles on the washer's the building provides in our laundry room so I wouldn't be able to do all the extra rinses, etc. to wash them properly. I looked into using a cloth diapering service, but it's really expensive and even if I could afford it, again because I live in an apartment building, I can't because they drop off/pick up at your front door. I would have loved to use cloth, but I don't feel guilty because I know it's not a feasible option for me. Anyhow, not trying to argue, just wanted to offer another point of view on that issue.

I haven't come into this section too often, though I have started a couple threads here before. I never really felt like I belonged since I don't use cloth diapers and I don't think I do AP, though maybe my understanding of what that means isn't totally correct either. I am still bf 10 months later with no sign of stopping anytime soon, I will be ERF (it's law to rf until 1 here, so technically I'm not ERFing yet), I do wear Clara but use a stroller too and don't wear her for hours a day most days, and I make all of her food. I've had a couple bad experiences in bc from a few of the people who also post often in here, but I'm realizing that not everyone is as judgmental as they are and that I could probably get some good advice (and maybe offer some as well) in this section.

EDIT: I regularly find some non AP/NP people in baby club quite judgmental and offensive too. Just wanted to clear up that I don't think these things are limited to one type of parent or another, but to people in general. In any group there's always going to be a few that are like that and think they know what is best for everyone or that their opinion is more correct than others'.

 

[bky]

^^ that's true. I actually left off babywearing because some people can't manage it for medical reasons. I suppose there are other situations for each thing that falls under the NP umbrella--but as you pointed out, even though you would have liked to it's not an emotional raw point for you. That's the part I don't get, none of those choices (nappies, weaning, carseats, babywearing etc) SHOULD be a raw point because they are all choices you make based on your lifestyle and what works for you and your baby (and to be fair FF if that was your choice, just often it isn't). So I don't get why people get angry and backlash about it.
I suppose it does come a bit from both sides. I can think of a few examples, but since they are all involving things for the most part chosen I still don't understand the backlash.

 

[Farie]

I dont have an issue with baby club, yeah it can get a bit 'heated' but its ok and there are loads of lovely girls in there.
I find NP sections pretty uncomfy at times, all the talk of 'despicables' etc and how awful 'sposies are, how they are full of chemicals and bad for baby.

Each to their own I say, but imho there is more to natural parenting/AP than pretty fluff and breast feeding.

 

[kmac625]

I dont have an issue with baby club, yeah it can get a bit 'heated' but its ok and there are loads of lovely girls in there.
I find NP sections pretty uncomfy at times, all the talk of 'despicables' etc and how awful 'sposies are, how they are full of chemicals and bad for baby.

Each to their own I say, but imho there is more to natural parenting/AP than pretty fluff and breast feeding.

Oooh, you reminded me of how once I did take offense to someone in bc talking about cloth vs disposables. Only they didn't call them disposables, but referred to them as chemical diapers. It didn't make me feel guilty, but did tick me off because that could only be meant to upset people and get a reaction.

 

[fluffpuffin]

Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.

 

[Farie]

That is so true!
And its so hard 'cos quite often we're busy mums, typing fast while LO sleeps/crawls about eating fluff off the carpet/throws up/smushes food into the sofa and just type as we think - and in typing a jokey tone, inflection and a wry smile just don't come across!!

 

[zzypeg]

TBH..until I actually read this thread..I have never thought to "label" my parenting style! It is exactly that MY style. I do what I think is best for my baby and what she needs! I really couldn't give 2 coconuts what anyone thinks of the way I parent. My baby is healthy, happy, warm fed and very very loved. I would never do anything that endangers her so how we get to the above mentioned states is none of anyone's business IMO! Whilst others do things I may not agree with, I may do things that they don't agree with and as long as their child is healthy and safe it's not my place to judge or interfere! So perhaps we should think of putting this to bed and celebrating the fact that everyone is a fantastic mum and being a parent and making choices for your child is the most "natural" thing in the world. xxxxx

 

[Janidog]

Can I just say that it ANNOYS me when people take swipes at those parents that have had to use CIO/CC, parents don't do it just for the fun of it, its not the easiest choice to make, it is very much the last resort for a heck a lot of parents!

The attitude towards AP is there, because attachment parents can't seem to think outside there own little box and do criticise those parents that parent differently

Every parent parents differently - does it really matter what other parents are doing??

 

[indy and lara]

The more I read this thread the more I wonder why people want to label themselves as being in 1 camp or the other? It doesn't really change what you are doing does it or how well your child is doing. It is just another way to group people.

_ I EBF for 14 months
- We have never co-slept and I never once fed Emma when I was still in bed.
- We use resuable nappies
- I used a pram/ buggy as both Em and I hated slings
- We followed BLW
- We eventually used CC as Emma had never managed to self settle. Our trigger time for returning started at 2 mins and stayed at that duration.

So what is the point in my trying to decide which 'tribe' I belong to as I do bits of both. The bits that work for us as a family. All this grouping just sometimes makes people feel that they don't belong anywhere.

 

[louandivy]

The more I read this thread the more I wonder why people want to label themselves as being in 1 camp or the other? It doesn't really change what you are doing does it or how well your child is doing. It is just another way to group people.

_ I EBF for 14 months
- We have never co-slept and I never once fed Emma when I was still in bed.
- We use resuable nappies
- I used a pram/ buggy as both Em and I hated slings
- We followed BLW
- We eventually used CC as Emma had never managed to self settle. Our trigger time for returning started at 2 mins and stayed at that duration.

So what is the point in my trying to decide which 'tribe' I belong to as I do bits of both. The bits that work for us as a family. All this grouping just sometimes makes people feel that they don't belong anywhere.

You have summed up perfectly what I was thinking! I follow a lot of AP styles but not because they are AP, because I just happened to breastfeed/co-sleep/babywear and then found out there is a name for it! But I don't consider myself an 'attachment parent' because its not even something I set out to do, it just happened this way because of the way my LO is. I don't understand the need to group mums into different 'styles'. Also I always felt like 'natural parenting' is very popular in babyclub, the poor people who do CIO always get slated!

 

[JA1988]

I will admit, that in my heart, I do honestly think that some women in there make what I believe to be "bad" choices. I will admit that I hate the concept of "parent-directed" parenting practices. Hearing women 'brag' about those makes me shake my head. Just my honesty. And I'm sure many of them feel the same way about me.

However, I feel that it's important to support other mothers in their efforts, and not to outwardly judge them, unless it conflicts with my ethical beliefs (and that's when I feel a certain practice falls into neglect - that I won't discuss right now). How I feel about "poor" choices is just my opinion and shouldn't stop me from having a civil discussion with others.

I think this is exactly what can cause a lot of debate, you've hit the nail on th head there, as I can appreciate that some people don't have a choice when it comes to say formula feeding for example BUT what makes me upset (and probably many others) is when people make 'parent-centred' choices so that baby fits around their lives as opposed to the other way round, the way I believe it should be (not saying my way is right, just expressing my opinion). I think some things are cut and dry (breastmilk is natural, formula is artificial, most disposables are filled with chemicals whereas the majority of cloth nappies are not etc) these are true statements and people shouldn't be offended by statements of truth. That said, when people do something because they have no alternative rather than just making a convenient parent-centred choice, that is when there is likely to be conflict as it is understandable to feel some guilt/anger/upset/frustration etc about something you wanted to do but couldn't for whatever reason, this is why I think it is important for people to think carefully about how they word things for example 'despicables' is likely to annoy some people but 'disposables' most likely isn't.

 

[nickyXjayno]

Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.

Maybe I'm just dumb but I never saw anything in your previous post to get upset about.
You explained how you found breast feeding hard and didn't feel natural despite it being so, you also said you were at the point of leaving it and going FF if it weren't of the support of your hubby.
You basically said you totally understood how hard BF is and understand why so many can not do it either through choice or health issues.

I had to check you hadn't edited your post when i saw someone getting upset by it as saw nothing offensive in it.
So please don't feel bad as don't think you had done anything wrong .

 

[lozzy21]

Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.

Using your comment to prove an earlier point, your comment dident upset me, it was my own guilt that upset me but your post just reminded me i was quilty lol

You cant feel bad about something you make an informed choice about.

 

[DanielleM]

I have been following this thread since yesterday and felt a little bit out of place to comment, probably just the same that you ladies feel uncomfortable in Baby Club so I can totally understand how all of you feel now

I am not a 'natural' parent in the whole sense of things, but I do babywear and occasionaly co-sleep, and I can honestly say if it was not for the NP/AP parents posting in BC then I probably would not really be doing much of this. And thanks to Aliss I am going to be switching from a rubbish BabyBjorn to the Ergo.

I do however class myself as a natural parent, as it is natural to me. My family is very large and ever expanding, most FF and use disposible nappies, so therefore this is normal to me (even though I did breatfeed for a short time). I do not class myself as mainstream, and I do not in any way class AP/NP as a minority, I just think people parent in their own way, which is natural to them.

I see parenting as a road/journey we are all on, we started off in the same place, and we all intend on getting to the end finishing line, in getting our children to be healthy and happy young adults. Along the way we will all take different routes and shortcuts, there will be rocky roads along the way which may cause us to take detours. But essentially we are all heading the same way! No parent is going to take exactly the same route, so I respect that.

I hope everybody can feel included all over the forum and not just in certain sub-groups. xx

 

[Hayley90]

Im like some of the others... i do a complete mish mash of everything!

FF/ERF/pram and BWing/BLW/cloth nappies/co sleeping/amber necklace and medication.... i am completely 50/50 on everything!

This place is good for getting knowledge about the lesser known, or less widely used 'options' such as cloth or amber or Baby wearing, but baby club has its benefits too - when Harrison went through an unexpected bad sleeping phase i had so many suggestions as to how to help him sleep again - i could of CC or CIO, because i had loads of tips, i also had tips about co sleeping, teething, feeds and wind - so i brought him back in with me, by picking the information that i felt most comfortable with.

Why cant people just over look what they dont like, rather than pick holes in it... i didnt shout the girls down who suggested CC or CIO to me, i just said id prefer not to, and would try other things first... Whereas ive seen some just jump straight in with 'no its so cruel its neglectful and awful youre a terrible parent....'

I dont agree with things, but fgs everyone has a concience and there is no need to crush someone for choosing the most appropriate bit of advice that THEY had.

does that make sense?

 

[Kota]

I think one of the things with cc/cio is that it sometime seems like its almost expected that its just one of those things you have to do as a parent. as common as changing a bum and wiping a snotty nose. You see posts about Dr/HV's telling new stressed out sleep deprived mums to just 'let them cry them selves to sleep' or the older generation passing it on as some miracle cure for all sleeping problems, that a lot of the times, mums don't realise theres other ways of doing things. They just feel like they have to do it, because everyone else is, and even though they HATE hearing their baby cry, don't know they have another option.

I am completely 100% against it, and don't believe there is EVER a time where it is the ONLY thing left to do. So I will continue to offer more gentle methods, even if thats just recommending the NCSS book or some links on why babies cry and some of the potential negative effects of CIO/CC. If you've chosen to do it and are happy with that choice you've made then fine, but for the mother that is still trying to figure it out, why can't someone like myself offer up the other side of the coin to all the people that sit there saying how fantastic and wonderful it was for them??

 

[Blob]

I agree I don't think I have a label, I do what comes natural for me. I will look in each place for what I need? I spend more time in here I think but then again I went into the BLW section and I left rather fast. I hated it, even though I do BLW it had a horrible feeling so I guess I understand how people from the BC view in here?