Attitudes to AP/NP in Baby Club...

[nickyXjayno]

I haven't had my baby yet but when I do I hope to have as natural a birth as possible as I don't want to feel out of it or unable to move.
I also hope to breastfeed as have read many of the benefits.
I will be using non reusable nappies, I won't be co sleeping nor will I let my child cry it out.
I want to use both a pram and a sling/baby carrier.
I'd say this makes me a sort of middle ground between Natural parenting and the mainstream?

I was explaining my choices to a woman who has just got back from maternity leave and she pretty much shot me down.
She said breastfeeding isn't good for the child and you don't know how much they are eating.
They won't settle properly ever and baby slings are stupid as what happens if you fall over?

The way she said these things made me feel a bit stupid like my child would be malnourished and irritable, also in danger from me crushing it if I fall while carrying.

I didn't argue with her but gave a non commital reply.
I don't know where she got her breastfeeding facts from but ohwell I didn't want to argue so didn't ask.

I do think people need to think about how they phrase things as can lead to confusion/upset.
We are also very sensitive when it comes to our babies, even before they are born!
xxx

 

[ellie]

^^ see, how is it okay for someone to criticise another's parenting one way but it seems to be not okay to do it the other way? nickyXjayno, that was really unfair of her to do that to you!

I think I've said before about 'natural parenting' not really summing up this section any more, I like Eala's suggestion really. Lots of the stuff talked about in here is not "natural" as such (lol!) but I would also not call it anything like alternative or unconventional or anything like that. As someone else said, we're not doing anything new, it's all 'old ways' that have fallen by the wayside in recent times but are becoming more popular again.

 

[Eala]

feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that

But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.

However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:

Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.

Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it.

 

[JA1988]

feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that

But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.

However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:

Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.

Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it.

I get what your saying, but I think if we were to run a poll on the forum asking what people thought this particular 'natural parenting' section of the forum was about, I am pretty certain that most people would say it was a section for parents who choose eco-friendly, organic, attachment parenting style options for their child and I think very few people would deem it to mean that it is a section for parents who respond to their children as a natural instinct, insinuating that other parents on the forum make choices which are unnatural and wrong.

I understand what you are saying in that 'natural' can be defined in many different ways, but what I am trying to say is that in this instance I think the majority of baby and bump users think cloth nappies, organic food, clothes, skincare etc etc when they see the 'natural parenting' section.

ETA- I don't think it is the word 'natural' that is causing offence, more perhaps that every mother is, whether they admit it or not, sensitive when it comes to parenting choices as 9 times out of 10, a mother makes the choices she does as she believes it is the best choice for her baby and when someone challenges that it is likely to hit a nerve.

 

[bumpy_j]

feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that

But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.

However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:

Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.

Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it.

I get what you mean but I meant that I didnt like the word 'natural' because I personally see natural as what our human instincts would be if we lived in a world of no technology (so no nappies, methods of transportation or formula/bottles) breastfeeding is the only thing i can really think of that falls under that, that and chewing up purees and spitting them in your LOs mouth (so yeah, thank god for technology!). I just really think its the wrong word but thats my personal interpretation of the term and I completely know what you're saying

 

[lynnikins]

i read this thread earlier then popped into baby club as i hadnt been there for a while since i count EJ as a toddler lol and saw a thread all about how proud someone was of conforming to the "norms" of society rather than doing what she did because she was convinced it was the absolute best option for her children and family. my choices might get labeled as "natural" and " alternative" but i make them because i believe its best for my family, so even if that means MR cloth bum ( EJ ) has spent over a week in sposies because Mummys morning sickness wouldnt allow her to do the nappy wash and Dad refuses then its my choice and i do it for my reasons, even if its not strictly "natural" to use sposies every so often

 

[Sam292]

Littlestar- yep exactly that. I was in a state trying to alter the wording (doh! I am clearly socially inept with words) to suit people's sensitivities and I never got a chance to clearly explain what I meant. If I had explained properly alot of people would not have felt the way they do. I think everyone is on the starting line just ready to pounce

I saw your thread after it was closed yesterday but it really frustrated me! I could see entirely what you were getting at but unfortunately you were completely misunderstood and ganged up on. Could have been an interesting discussion had it been taken the right way

 

[Thumper]

Argh! I've just had another look at that 'any other mums do it my way' type thread. Yikes! I could only read a few posts before running. Scary stuff for me.

 

[ellie]

I had to run from that one too

 

[mandarhino]

I never used BC as I found BNB when she was already a toddler. I was looking to talk nappies and seek advice.

When my daughter was little, the site I used most for advice was the breastfeeding page of another very popular forum - the one with a high media profile. I think I just needed reassurance about what I was experiencing was normal, as I sure wasn't getting it in real life. I knew deep down that my instincts were right but just needed to read other mothers were going or had gone through it (that being a constantly feeding / non sleeping baby).

I agree that many people are just looking for the opportunity to take things the wrong way. Going by their behaviour on forums - not just this one - many people don't seem that confident in the choices they've made. I understand that because motherhood is very much about muddling through, hoping you're doing the right thing. I don't see that ending anytime soon and I'm sure I'll be stressing ever more when she's a teenager. What I hate is the jumping down peoples' throats because they've taken a different path than you and the assumption that your choices are a direct criticism of theirs.

I like Eala's suggestion for the name of this page. I have never used the phrase natural parenting in real life. I don't ever talk about following a particular parenting style either, other than occasionally on here.

 

[Mrs Mayhem]

can I ask your girls opinion on something

do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I've often wondered if I am half natural?!?!

I FF because I have to, I literally had zero supply of milk, it just never came!! I carry my baby almost everywhere, I co-slept for a long while, I will be ERF.... basically, without listing it, there's some things I do which could be classed as 'natural' and some which wouldn't, but the decisions are based on necessity (ie, I FF because if I didn't, my baby would starve....

So I never really know where to fit in. Having said that I wouldn't jump in and judge a person for the way they parent their child, unless it was dangerous. BUT, I will defend myself and other parents like me when we feel judged, ie, the debate about having an epidural = drugging your baby.
As some others have said, its often the words used which cause offence rather than the meaning behind those words.

I have to say though, as someone who isn't always 'natural', I often feel judged and made to feel like I am not doing the best for my daughter when that is all I am actually trying to do!!

 

[purpleblond]

can I ask your girls opinion on something

do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I haven't read the whole thread but i don't see the point in being called 'xyz parenting', surely we are all parents?

 

[sjminimac]

can I ask your girls opinion on something

do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I haven't read the whole thread but i don't see the point in being called 'xyz parenting', surely we are all parents?

This was precisely my point on yesterday's thread (sorry lightworker but it is relevant to this thread too) what really got my back up yesterday was the labelling which really did come across as judgemental - convenience/parent centred? Insinuating not the best for the child? Read my signature, i'm not offended because i don't class that as my 'style', i'm annoyed because i get judged for what i do ('extended' breastfeeding anyone? He's only 9 months old!) and it upsets me, so naturally i'm going to get upset when i see the same thing happening to other mummies who parent differently. JMHO.

 

[anna matronic]

I had an unnatural birth and I don't cloth bum.

I do still breastfeed, I babywear, I co-sleep, I don't leave my child to CIO or do CC, I am doing BLW. I guess I would be considered AP/NP?

Funny cos I don't feel I fit in here one little bit

 

[aragornlover8]

I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.

I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.

I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.

I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky , if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.

But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.

With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.

I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.

 

[aragornlover8]

Oh dear, I just realized how long that was. I'm so sorry.

 

[kawaiigirl]

I used to be in BC all the time. Then I decided to try cloth so came over here to NP. I just found people to be more accepting of different parenting outlooks. I don't breastfeeding, co-sleep, BLW or carry my baby but I still feel like I fit in here more

 

[buttonnose82]

what is kinda upsetting I guess is that ANYONE feels they need too defend their parenting style, I am pretty certain that regardless of how we bring up our children 99.9% of us are just doing what we feel is best for us, our children & our families

 

[lozzy21]

I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.

I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.

I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.

I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky , if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.

But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.

With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.

I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.

First of all , i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.

 

[littlestar85]

aragornlover8 I understand where you're coming from completely. I think it is very wrong for people to judge others who had no choice but to do things for medical reasons and a lot of the time people find it hard to remember that the health of the baby had to come before the ideals of the mother. Sounds like you went through a really stressful time and coped amazingly with it.

I wanted the perfect 'natural birth' too but when I went into labour in my 35th week I was no longer allowed to use the midwife-led birthing centre I was booked in to or even the birthing pool on the labour ward and ended up with a ventouse delivery, episiotomy, all the things I didn't want. Even though I really believe in the benefits of a totally natural birth and I had no choice in what happened to me it does still upset me and despite being very AP/NP I do feel patronised sometimes by people's attitudes to medical intervention. I hope to do it differently next time around too, but we can only plan to a certain extent without knowing what nature has in store for us and our LOs. Whilst natural birth is exactly that, natural, it's also very natural for some babies to not survive labour/birth... in those instances we have to be grateful that we can have medical interventions to save us and our LOs... in those cases letting nature take its course would most definitely not be what anyone wants to do.

As long as your intentions are always to do the best you can for your baby I think that's all that matters, you can't plan everything or be in control 100% of the time despite your beliefs and best endeavours. x