breast is no longer best...new research

[Aidan's Mummy]

I wish my MW had kept coming in and supported me

When Aidan was three hours old I rang the bell and asked for help feeding. I ws either a student or an auxillary but she said just feed him. and walked out. I just sat there and cryed

Aidan was gettimg distressed too.

A while later a MW came in and tryed to help me but by that time me and aidan were both very upset and it made it a very upsetting expeirnce. I breastfed for a little while but in the end just gave up and asked for a bottle

I really want to try again next tim but i just dont want to have that experience again
xx

 

[milkmachine]

I wish my MW had kept coming in and supported me

When Aidan was three hours old I rang the bell and asked for help feeding. I ws either a student or an auxillary but she said just feed him. and walked out. I just sat there and cryed

Aidan was gettimg distressed too.

A while later a MW came in and tryed to help me but by that time me and aidan were both very upset and it made it a very upsetting expeirnce. I breastfed for a little while but in the end just gave up and asked for a bottle

I really want to try again next tim but i just dont want to have that experience again
xx

its a shame you didnt get the support that you clearly wanted. maybe next time x

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

The help I received was rubbish.

At antenatal classes we were told 'all women can BF' and the only problem that was addressed was sore nipples.

Ruby just wouldn't latch, 3 different MWs just kept shoving my boobs into Ruby's mouth when she was crying, now I know that is TOTALLY the wrong to do!

All they kept saying was don't give bottles, don't give formula, don't give a dummy.

Ruby latched once - in front of the HV at the first home visit (I'd been exclusively expressing and trying to latch her up until then) which was actually not helpful because it meant she didn't believe me that I was having problems! I told her how much EBM I had been giving (1 ounce - it took me well over an hour to get this out) she laughed.

I insisted that they sent a BF supporter but she just did the shoving boobs in mouth thing like the MWs had. Then she kept ringing me telling me not to give Ruby a bottle.

Obviously, I had to!

 

[special_kala]

My MW shoved my boob into Rivers mouth as soon as i tried to BF which didnt help at all. I didnt ask for help as was happy to work it out ourselves to begin with. She also gave her the vitamin K injection while i was trying which was bloody silly.

They also didnt notice she had major tongue tie and didnt give me the appointment to get it cut for 2 weeks i think.

Im going to try and BF next time and hopefully it will work out. Though i wont do the expressing i did as River was om EBM for a week as it was exausting doing that every 3 hours and then feeding her every 3 hours

 

[helent1983]

When I had Archie I was kept in the hospital for 3 days due to high blood pressure. When I look back it was probably because of this that I managed to succeed in BF. The nurses and midwifes helped me out becuase I am the first to admit it is bloody hard when you first start out! It took me ages to get it right and oh the pain I remember it well I didn't think it would ever stop hurting! (Took about 2 months before it didn't hurt when latching on!!!) But like I said I had a good few days of help and support whereas if I had been sent home on the first day I would probably have given up!

xx

 

[Shri]

I'm still ploughing through this thread but in the mean time here is some info for you all.

I have just read the published scientific paper that this story came from. I cannot quite believe how completely misreported it has been. The paper looks at a causal relationship between mothers breastfeeding and the level of androgens during their pregnancy (which is itself relates to a number of conditions including PCOS). The conclusion is that mothers breastfeed less when they have had high levels of andgrogens during pregnancy. An exact copy of text from the discussion is below for those who wish to read the science. There is nothing that says anything about whether or not breastmilk is good or bad.

In accordance with our overall hypothesis, we found that breastfeeding among women in both our study groups was negatively associated with maternal androgen levels in the second trimester of pregnancy. In both groups of women, the effect was essentially unaffected by adjustment for factors known to influence breastfeeding such as maternal age, education, and smoking (8).
Theoretically, if there is a causal relation, at least three mechanisms may explain the observed association between maternal gestational androgen levels and ensuing breastfeeding. High androgen levels during pregnancy may inhibit transformation of the breast in to the lactating state. Postpartum androgen levels, which may associate with gestational levels, may
inhibit lactation. Third, it is also possible that androgens have psychological effects making women less dedicated to breastfeeding. A combination of these mechanisms is a fourth possibility.

The report itself IMO was not really the point, it was the need to feel a sense of relief and acceptance about FF which is what made me read the OP based on the title (I'm extremely unlikely to believe that any scientific report can show breastmilk may not be the optimum choice) To my mind it is entirely an emotive issue.
My point all along has been that rather than debating over which is better and why (which obviously depends on the individual situations!) we should try to encourage a more supportive atmosphere between mothers.

 

[shanka]

at the end of the day every mom is different and some dont have a choice to bf an ff is the only option! this is a ff fourm so why wouldnt the op poat this
i ffed my son and he is healthy with no illness through his 1st year
i dont care who judges me for ffing

 

[lozenge]

The help I received was rubbish.

At antenatal classes we were told 'all women can BF' and the only problem that was addressed was sore nipples.

Ruby just wouldn't latch, 3 different MWs just kept shoving my boobs into Ruby's mouth when she was crying, now I know that is TOTALLY the wrong to do!

All they kept saying was don't give bottles, don't give formula, don't give a dummy.

Ruby latched once - in front of the HV at the first home visit (I'd been exclusively expressing and trying to latch her up until then) which was actually not helpful because it meant she didn't believe me that I was having problems! I told her how much EBM I had been giving (1 ounce - it took me well over an hour to get this out) she laughed.

I insisted that they sent a BF supporter but she just did the shoving boobs in mouth thing like the MWs had. Then she kept ringing me telling me not to give Ruby a bottle.

Obviously, I had to!

Exactly the same thing happened with me. Such a shame. I will try again next time.. and get one of those latch assist things as my nipples are not the best!

 

[FsMummy]

i saw the title of this thread and just said "oh god, here we go" lol this happens every single time so i dont know why everyone bothers arguing. i bet the mods could dig out a whole bunch of threads like this and they will all sound the same. some people bf and some people ff. big deal. as long is the baby is properly cared for and happy then why the fuss?

 

[lozenge]

i saw the title of this thread and just said "oh god, here we go" lol this happens every single time so i dont know why everyone bothers arguing. i bet the mods could dig out a whole bunch of threads like this and they will all sound the same. some people bf and some people ff. big deal. as long is the baby is properly cared for and happy then why the fuss?

Exactly

 

[Kit]

I think this thread has been a classic example of people choosing to take offence. I think I have made it clear recently that I dislike people being judgemental rather than simply expressing a general opinion, but to be honest, unless I have missed something, no-one who was expressing an original opinion (rather than responding to the opinion of another) was offensive or judgemental.

I FF - as some of you will know I had big problems with BF and only just hung on in there with a daily BF for about 3 months. The way I feel about it is a bit like "doublethink" for anyone who has read 1984 - for those who haven't the idea was to accept something that you know isn't true while at the same time forgetting that you know it isn't true (I think - haven't read it for a while so that might not be quite right!) Clearly our bodies were designed to BF - in that sense it is normal and natural. Nature isn't perfect but fortunately we live in a time when we can get round nature's mishaps. In this sense BF IS the norm and FF is the alternative. I accept this - but at the same time get a little iritated when reminded of this fact and find myself thinking of reasons why it might not be true. I wonder if anyone else feels this way? It might explain why no-one is able to discuss BF vs FF for very long without it getting heated.
I know perfectly well that BF mums are entirely right and justified in putting forward the breast is best viewpoint - but somehow I still don't like them doing it! This is not their problem - it is mine. I don't think they are right to criticise FF mums or doubt their reasons for not BF - as I said on a recent thread - but they have to be able to put forward their entirely proper viewpoint - even if it makes me feel a bit irrationally uncomfortable!
There is of course always the issue of ongoing research - at the moment we know that there are various benefits to breastfeeding but who is to say that new research (even possibly the study we are in) might not find specific areas where there is a benefit to FF? If that happens I fully expect that BF mums will find themselves defending their position as defensively as FF mums sometimes feel the need to do now.
It is unfortunate that such an issue exists - it creates two such polarised "camps" but it does exist and there is no point reading criticism where none exists - there is enough genuine criticism out there. It does, however, exist so lets try to deal with it a bit more robustly.

I undertake to try to feel less defensive whenever I see a breastfeeding ticker, or a breast is best comment. Anyone with me?

 

[milkmachine]

The help I received was rubbish.

At antenatal classes we were told 'all women can BF' and the only problem that was addressed was sore nipples.

Ruby just wouldn't latch, 3 different MWs just kept shoving my boobs into Ruby's mouth when she was crying, now I know that is TOTALLY the wrong to do!

All they kept saying was don't give bottles, don't give formula, don't give a dummy.

Ruby latched once - in front of the HV at the first home visit (I'd been exclusively expressing and trying to latch her up until then) which was actually not helpful because it meant she didn't believe me that I was having problems! I told her how much EBM I had been giving (1 ounce - it took me well over an hour to get this out) she laughed.

I insisted that they sent a BF supporter but she just did the shoving boobs in mouth thing like the MWs had. Then she kept ringing me telling me not to give Ruby a bottle.

Obviously, I had to!

im so sorry you didnt receive the support that you clearly wanted and didnt receive. they do sell breastfeeding as the easy option but at first it can be soul destroyingly hard.

 

[milkmachine]

My MW shoved my boob into Rivers mouth as soon as i tried to BF which didnt help at all. I didnt ask for help as was happy to work it out ourselves to begin with. She also gave her the vitamin K injection while i was trying which was bloody silly.

They also didnt notice she had major tongue tie and didnt give me the appointment to get it cut for 2 weeks i think.

Im going to try and BF next time and hopefully it will work out. Though i wont do the expressing i did as River was om EBM for a week as it was exausting doing that every 3 hours and then feeding her every 3 hours

its really sad that you were let down it must have been really hard expressing for the first few weeks too. as if birthing isnt exhausting enough eh! it angers me when midwifes and other staff that are ment to have these important supportive roles and they just dont. i dont think they realize the impact that they can make.

 

[Blondie2008]

Phew! Just read through the whole post.

I FF after trying BF and not taking to it. No excuses - i just didnt like it. However i do think that sometimes FF Mum's take too much notice and offence when BF mum's say that BF is 'normal' AND 'best' etc. Of course its the best thing for your baby. Nobody can argue otherwise.

BUT its not the best thing for your baby if the mother is stressed out and crying all the time trying to BF.

Feeding your baby is just one small part of motherhood. Its hard work raising a child and i think that BF or FF as long as they are well cared for and loved then thats all that matters.

 

[clairebear]

Ill tell you what's best feeding your baby!

So what if you bf or ff it really doesn't matter.

 

[ellie1275]

OMG I am positively shocked by the number of replies to my thread!!! sorry for not getting involved I had to deal with LO and forgot to come back on until now! I wasnt trying to start an argument honestly!!! I just had real problems with BF myself due to baby being in special care and I found the people who were forcing BF on me quite upsetting (hence my comment about the breast police) I hate the presure and guilt that people who FF are put under and dont think it is fair as what many of you have said it is a woman's choice!
I do feel that in the british culture there is more to it than just breast being best? best for who? what? etc. feeding your baby needs to be about what is best for you and your baby...e.g if you spend half your time stressed out regarding BF surely that is not good for baby or the breast milk. I am not advocating FF I just beleive women deserve choice and that it is not a necessity in our culture unlike it might be in say an underdeveloped country where the breastfed babies and probably the healthiest individuals compared to adults as breast milk is better than lack of food and poor hygiene etc.
someone mentioned companies saying not a breasr subsitiute re formaula ,the goverment rule this and that actually annoys me as you are unable to get any kind of discount, boots or nectar points on formula because the government have banned pharmaceutical companies from gaining profit from such products. what happened to personal choice? and why then do the governemt allow the sale of cigarettes and other such harmful substances which have been related to cot death etc which is a far more pressing issue.
anyway Im glad that I have created a healthy debate on here and Im sorry if I offended anyone in any way as that was not my intention.
I hope that I can continue to see heated debates on this site as that is what make life rich and exciting!
thank you to those who have supported me during this thread!
Ellie xxxx

 

[Foogirl]

i saw the title of this thread and just said "oh god, here we go" lol this happens every single time so i dont know why everyone bothers arguing.

That's what drew me in, the title of the thread. I have no problem with anyone making their own choice on how to feed their children, but this kind of attitude smacks of "Hah! So there! Told you so! Breastmilk is rubbish and formula is better. I also get very annoyed about bad science and the media's reporting of any study nowadays. These are journalists who have absolutley no background in science and should stick to reporting on what Brad Pitt had for breakfast rather than writing flawed stories which serve no purpose whatsoever.

Breastmilk has been shown in study after study after study to be the best option and is not only taylored to individual babies but adjusts with weather and temperature. Formula doesn't do this but is certainly a good substitute for those who can't or won't breastfeed and I'm glad it is available to them. Their resons for not Bfing are their own business. But to trash breastmilk and breastfeeders to assuage your own guilt is not on.

I know perfectly well that BF mums are entirely right and justified in putting forward the breast is best viewpoint - but somehow I still don't like them doing it! This is not their problem - it is mine. I don't think they are right to criticise FF mums or doubt their reasons for not BF - as I said on a recent thread - but they have to be able to put forward their entirely proper viewpoint - even if it makes me feel a bit irrationally uncomfortable!

I'm a firm believer in this being the case for most people. I cannot make someone feel guilty with my words, if that guilt isn't already there in the first place. If a person believes what they are doing is entirely the right thing, then what difference does my opinion make? If someone is already on the back foot, that is when the offence is taken and the hackles go up and they go in to overdrive in defensive mode. Unfortunately, unlike you, many people don't recognise that and will very much think of it as the other person's problem.

I'd also like to add that my opinions on breastfeeding are only ever given when asked for. I do find that FF mums who see me breastfeeding seem to want to bend over backwards to justify why they don't - and I have never once been the one to open that dialogue with them. I couldn't give a toss what they do!!

is it just me or is this thread just people repeating them selves over and over again i feel like this thread could maybe be narrowed down to like 5 posts that are different lol.

And cut even further if the quote in quote in quote in quote in quotes were removed

 

[Kit]

is it just me or is this thread just people repeating them selves over and over again i feel like this thread could maybe be narrowed down to like 5 posts that are different lol.

And cut even further if the quote in quote in quote in quote in quotes were removed[/QUOTE]

I reckon I could get it down to 3!

 

[Mum2b_Claire]

. I cannot make someone feel guilty with my words, if that guilt isn't already there in the first place. If a person believes what they are doing is entirely the right thing, then what difference does my opinion make? If someone is already on the back foot, that is when the offence is taken and the hackles go up and they go in to overdrive in defensive mode.

Absolutely 100% agree - I've said this a lot of times of here....

 

[FemmeEnceinte]

Kit makes a lot of sense.

On the flip side, as a BFing mother... seeing something like this really gets my back up. Primarily because I'm very pro BFing, so much so that i donate to the local Milk Bank for premature babies in NICU in the local area. Also, because the benefits of BFing have been proven in a million and one different studies and this is the first to suggest that other issues might contribute...

A big part of me resents the fact that FF is much easier in practice than BF. A lot of women work really hard, push through agony and major obstacles to BF their baby, truly believing in what they're doing and wanting desperately to do it. Some nights, when I've had no sleep because LO wants to BF round the clock and some days when it's the same and we're in a growth spurt I start to think how much easier it would be to give her formula, because then she'd settle for longer and sometimes OH could feed her and I could sleep for more than 3 hours at a time. Then, when this debate kicks off and people roll up with the "it's just as good" argument, it really takes away from all the hard work people put in and considering how hard it is for most women... I think it deserves a little respect, recognition and not to be dismissed as "not best" or, more irritatingly, "just as good".

I have endless respect for women who try and are unable because I KNOW just how hard it is. I envy some women for their ability to not care if it doesn't work out, because I know that's just not me. I'll BF until Molly is done or I am physically incapable and even then, I'll be sad. Don't get me wrong... I enjoy the emotional experience and I enjoy knowing that I am persevering through trying times. But it is incredibly difficult and anyone taking my achievement away by taking this one piece of research as gospel will always be offensive, to me. One swallow does not a summer make.

What people need to remember is that there is guilt, emotional turmoil and a great deal of stress on BOTH sides of this debate.