Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[leelee]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

To those saying 'it's the woman's choice whether she BFs or not', what about the baby's choice? Surely, as babies are born with the urge and ability to latch and feed (except in cases where there's a medical problem), then their biology is telling them to breastfeed. Surely the body that breastfeeding or not affects the most is that of the child? The woman has already sacrificed her body to carry the pregnancy to term, what's another few months of milk production?

Would, say, the ECHR or similar uphold a law that said babies deserve breastmilk?

Just playing devil's advocate - but with a different scenario.

What do people think about with regards to a baby not latching on, or crying everytime his/her mother tries to BF. Is it fair on the baby to push the boob on them, when they clearly don't want it?

Because this is what happened in my situation. DS had an injury to his cheeks due to a forceps delivery. I did the birth crawl with him and he latched on. He never latched on voluntarily again. I think it is because his cheeks were too sore. I had midwifes come for 10 days, each trying their best to latch him on. He was poked, prodded, cajoled and coaxed to the breast. He didn't want to latch on, it was clearly painful for him and yet I was advised again and again to keep at it. Even though he became distressed when I tried to latch him.

What about the baby's rights there? Is it okay to keep trying to latch him for X number of days/weeks until one day he might latch?

In that situation, I gave up on day 10 and expressed for 3 more weeks. As far was I was concerned I was willing to cause such a level of distress for my baby. And I am glad I did because when DD latched on perfectly when she was born I was delighted to experience what natural BF felt like. The situation with DS felt forced and unnatural.

Isaac didn't latch for the first 8 days. He'd passed his meconium, and he had to be suctioned. I didn't hold him for the first 1.5 hours, as I was cleaned out and stitched up after the c-section. Isaac was on a heat mat as he wasn't stabilising. The combination of everything meant that he didn't open his mouth at all. He sucked his bottom lip, but wouldn't open his mouth. I expressed for 8 days, supplemented with formula, as I don't respond well to pumps, and just kept holding him against my chest. We cup fed, no bottles. Eventually, he decided to start trying to latch. The last formula he had was when he was 10 days old, and he was EBF from then until we started weaning.

If the baby can't latch because of a birth injury, then that's not something in the biology of the baby. If there is a problem with the baby, be it a cleft palate or something as simple as a severe tongue and lip tie, then historically the baby probably either wouldn't have survived or would have been given a truly awful breastmilk substitute. Flour water, or cows milk and barley, or something. If I personally was in that situation, I would express as much as possible, but of course I would be open to supplements. Ideally it would be in the form of donated breastmilk, but formula wouldn't be an issue for me either. My own LO had plenty of formula that first week.

Of course, the baby's health has to come first. However, I do believe that all babies will try and latch eventually. How long you persist is down to your own situation. I was ready to give up expressing on day 8. I'd he hadn't latched that day, then I doubt we'd have lasted until the end of the second week. I wouldn't have sacrificed his short term, immediate health, for the long term health of breastfeeding. It's no good him not getting asthma if he dies from dehydration.

I think in my situation if he has been latching on here and there, and with no distress or pain, I would have persisted. But the fact he was so distressed by the whole thing, distressed me and made me feel like I was forcing him.

 

[mia_leacey]

So how and who do we lobby with patch's AMAZEBALLS suggestion??? lol

Every feed counts? NCT are already doing it.

They are? I was all ready to go copyright it I came up with it as a phrase when talking to my mom. She bf me for 6 weeks then gave up cos her 'milk just dried up'. Talking to her about BFing can be tricky, as she really believes her milk just went one day. We both liked 'every feed counts', cos it acknowledged that even a single feed is worthwhile, however long you BF for.

The NCT aren't being very vocal with it. Is there any literature you know of with it?

I agree. It's not something I heard anyone say at my classes. Glad it's out there though.

 

[patch2006uk]

Leelee-I have some heartbreaking video of Isaac age about 5 days, and he's just bobbing his head into my breast, crying. It frustrated him that he couldn't latch. He clearly wanted to, but something was stopping him. I don't partic buy that you shouldn't do it just because your LO gets a bit distressed-should you never bath them, change their nappy, put then in the car, etc?

Midori-I've searched for 'NCT every feed counts' and nothing useful comes up. There are quite a few interviews where people say they like the message of 'every feed counts', but I can't see any literature with it on.

 

[SnuggleMum]

But that's my point. Is it right to keep at it? I don't mean you personally. But for me it didn't feel right? I think 10 x at least 8 feeds per day is approx 80 attempts to latch. That seemed like enough attempts to me. He took to the bottle straight away and it didn't seem to hurt him at all. I didn't force the bottle on him and he wasn't distressed by the botte. He was distressed by all attempts to latch him though.

Can I share what I did? (not in a 'my way was better' but in a info sharing way. I know I'm nervous of having the same experience again so I imagine others are too).

I attempted direct feeding at every feed for the first few days, as it is easier to drip colostrum into the mouth than express. When my milk came in, I stopped attempting to direct feed at every feed - I tried during one night feed per night (nice, sleepy and relaxed) and once or twice a day - not overly hungry, but a calm, relaxed, unobserved feed. Usually in the bath or during skin to skin in bed. If I attempted at other time it was distressful (for me and him). If done at calm and not very hungry times he just didn't respond but it wasn't traumatic. One of those feeds (at 3 months!) he latched on!

 

[Dragonfly]

Alex was the same , slept whole first day didnt get a feed till next day! he was out of it and wouldnt latch. Rather stressful. Also forceps delivery so he had an injury on his face. But kept at it and he was fine. I did panic but no one ever said formula to me and this is a rather formula feeding area. If he wouldnt take my boob I cant see how he would formula. He was jaundiced to. He made up for it though, expert on boob but took a while to establish.

But that's my point. Is it right to keep at it? I don't mean you personally. But for me it didn't feel right? I think 10 days x at least 8 feeds per day is approx 80 attempts to latch. That seemed like enough attempts to me. He took to the bottle straight away and it didn't seem to hurt him at all. I didn't force the bottle on him and he wasn't distressed by the botte. He was distressed by all attempts to latch him though.

I dont know about your situation but I am sure you done what was best at the time . Alex kept coming off for days and was having problems so I know how stressful it was to establish. I never felt the need to get a bottle as I didnt think he would latch to that if not to me. And one of my nipples is is really lazy and hard to get up to. I got one of them pumps to pull it out. He also didnt feed loads a day but picked up slowly. He had a reflux to so was always throwing up feeds. He got better though. Thats just my situation and what I did that felt right. Which will be different to yours.

 

[leelee]

But that's my point. Is it right to keep at it? I don't mean you personally. But for me it didn't feel right? I think 10 x at least 8 feeds per day is approx 80 attempts to latch. That seemed like enough attempts to me. He took to the bottle straight away and it didn't seem to hurt him at all. I didn't force the bottle on him and he wasn't distressed by the botte. He was distressed by all attempts to latch him though.

Can I share what I did? (not in a 'my way was better' but in a info sharing way. I know I'm nervous of having the same experience again so I imagine others are too).

I attempted direct feeding at every feed for the first few days, as it is easier to drip colostrum into the mouth than express. When my milk came in, I stopped attempting to direct feed at every feed - I tried during one night feed per night (nice, sleepy and relaxed) and once or twice a day - not overly hungry, but a calm, relaxed, unobserved feed. Usually in the bath or during skin to skin in bed. If I attempted at other time it was distressful (for me and him). If done at calm and not very hungry times he just didn't respond but it wasn't traumatic. One of those feeds (at 3 months!) he latched on!

Thanks SnuggleMum and Dragonfly - it is good to hear about other experiences.

SnuggleMum - Did you express when your milk came in, or how did you feed?

I syringed the colostrum into DS and then tried to feed him with a bottle cap so he wouldn't get used to the bottle. I don't know if my milk ever came in properly, as I was only ever able to express about 1 ounce eveyr 2 hours. I think when I couldn't even express enough milk, combined with having to supplement with formula, then express every 2 hours and had a baby who wouldn't latch & was distressed when near the boob, I just thought enough is enough. Nothing seemed to be in our favour.

Whereas with DD, it was sore and she cluster fed. But it felt natural and not distressing.

 

[DLA]

Leelee, Your situation sounds similar to mine. My son didn't have a birth injury but he latched right after I delivered him but after that didn't really at all (except a for few lucky times). When I would try to latch him he just screamed and got more and more hysterical. I started pumping but continued to try to get him to latch for a good 3 months (not at every feed because it was so distressing for him and me). I understand what you mean about at what point is not good for the baby when they are that upset. I used my own judgment and did keep trying but wasn't going to put him through that every time. It was awful to see him that upset, I can't imagine if he had an injury on top of it

I think we all just use our best judgement. The first 2 weeks, I tried to get him to latch just about at every feeding. After that, I did it when I thought he was calm and I had the strength. But I totally see where you're coming from!

 

[SnuggleMum]

Thanks SnuggleMum and Dragonfly - it is good to hear about other experiences.

SnuggleMum - Did you express when your milk came in, or how did you feed?

I syringed the colostrum into DS and then tried to feed him with a bottle cap so he wouldn't get used to the bottle. I don't know if my milk ever came in properly, as I was only ever able to express about 1 ounce eveyr 2 hours. I think when I couldn't even express enough milk, combined with having to supplement with formula, then express every 2 hours and had a baby who wouldn't latch & was distressed when near the boob, I just thought enough is enough. Nothing seemed to be in our favour.

Whereas with DD, it was sore and she cluster fed. But it felt natural and not distressing.

I started expressing on day 4, and cup fed for a few days after that, but once my Mum went back home I switched to bottles (the mess of cup-feeding made me too emotional). I had low supply at first (I think less than 300ml per day is counted a low, and then 300-600 is borderline and 600-800 is classed as a full supply, but I can't recall exactly). I had to use medication to get to a full supply, and a lot of pumping with a double, hospital grade pump. The only reason I managed to carry on was the support I had, even my Dad would help out by washing my pump parts! Knowing other babies had 'got it' later than mine also gave me strength to carry on. It was the absolute hardest thing I've ever done, and I almost drove myself mad, but for me it was a journey I had to go on. Keeping fingers crossed this time will be different!

 

[midori1999]

Leelee-I have some heartbreaking video of Isaac age about 5 days, and he's just bobbing his head into my breast, crying. It frustrated him that he couldn't latch. He clearly wanted to, but something was stopping him. I don't partic buy that you shouldn't do it just because your LO gets a bit distressed-should you never bath them, change their nappy, put then in the car, etc?

Midori-I've searched for 'NCT every feed counts' and nothing useful comes up. There are quite a few interviews where people say they like the message of 'every feed counts', but I can't see any literature with it on.

Sorry Patch, I can't find anything either. Tbh, it was something an NCT BFC told me and I did just take it as fact without looking for more information on it. However, having looked, I wonder if she was getting it muddled with the 'Every day counts' message, which is put out by the NCT.

 

[MommaAlexis]

My best friend had a lot of issues BFing for her first, and she's going to be staying with me for a week or so after my LO is born, boy am I glad! It's nice having someone there who knows where to go and what to do if I have issues. After that she's going back to her hometown and I'm on my own so that's when the test for BFing will really start for me. I don't know what I'd do without her being there though, as I don't know anyone else who BF other then some family members who live 2 hours away!

 

[Liesje]

Midori-I've searched for 'NCT every feed counts' and nothing useful comes up. There are quite a few interviews where people say they like the message of 'every feed counts', but I can't see any literature with it on.

Try "every ounce counts"

https://www.breastmilkcounts.com/our-new-campaign.php

 

[patch2006uk]

Midori-I've searched for 'NCT every feed counts' and nothing useful comes up. There are quite a few interviews where people say they like the message of 'every feed counts', but I can't see any literature with it on.

Try "every ounce counts"

https://www.breastmilkcounts.com/our-new-campaign.php

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

 

[Gunnhilde]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

 

[MommaAlexis]

Think they may have been going more for the rhyme then anything else.

 

[Liesje]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

 

[Liesje]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

I believe the British invented Imperial units

 

[patch2006uk]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

thanks

I dunno, I suppose I feel that breastmilk isn't supposed to be measured in ounces, and stating that 'every ounce counts' might make women who mistakenly think that pumping is an indicator of supply but can only pump a few mls, think it's not worth doing. Although yes, I do see the rhyme now. That was totally lost on me. My A-level English Lit teacher would be very disappointed in me

I don't understand why some people consider 'being able to measure what baby is eating' a benefit of formula feeding. I've never worried about the physical amount Isaac has eaten. I don't like the obsession with putting numbers on everything. But maybe that's just me?

 

[patch2006uk]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

 

[Gunnhilde]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

I believe the British invented Imperial units

I would know that being British sweetie.
I just happen to live in America at the moment.

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

thanks

I dunno, I suppose I feel that breastmilk isn't supposed to be measured in ounces, and stating that 'every ounce counts' might make women who mistakenly think that pumping is an indicator of supply but can only pump a few mls, think it's not worth doing. Although yes, I do see the rhyme now. That was totally lost on me. My A-level English Lit teacher would be very disappointed in me

I don't understand why some people consider 'being able to measure what baby is eating' a benefit of formula feeding. I've never worried about the physical amount Isaac has eaten. I don't like the obsession with putting numbers on everything. But maybe that's just me?

I guess I always knew about how many ounces she was eating from BF. I mean you know whether they are only getting a few drops or a couple of ounces or whatever. I think the point is that even if you aren't producing milk like a dairy cow, you should still breastfeed.

 

[DLA]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

thanks

I dunno, I suppose I feel that breastmilk isn't supposed to be measured in ounces, and stating that 'every ounce counts' might make women who mistakenly think that pumping is an indicator of supply but can only pump a few mls, think it's not worth doing. Although yes, I do see the rhyme now. That was totally lost on me. My A-level English Lit teacher would be very disappointed in me

I don't understand why some people consider 'being able to measure what baby is eating' a benefit of formula feeding. I've never worried about the physical amount Isaac has eaten. I don't like the obsession with putting numbers on everything. But maybe that's just me?

Agree! I like the word "feed" better than "ounce". Feed could be BFing or EBM from a bottle. And yea what I pumped on days my baby wouldn't latch vs the days he did were quite different. When I exclusively pumped I didn't make nearly as much as when he would BF, even if it was only for half sessions or he just latched for a few minutes.