Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[patch2006uk]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

To those saying 'it's the woman's choice whether she BFs or not', what about the baby's choice? Surely, as babies are born with the urge and ability to latch and feed (except in cases where there's a medical problem), then their biology is telling them to breastfeed. Surely the body that breastfeeding or not affects the most is that of the child? The woman has already sacrificed her body to carry the pregnancy to term, what's another few months of milk production?

Would, say, the ECHR or similar uphold a law that said babies deserve breastmilk?

Its an interesting point, my only defence is that bf hurt me so much more than pregnancy did. Emotionally and physically.

But maybe if there was such a law women who bf successfully would be forced to donate milk

That's something I hadn't thought of before. Some kind of pay back scheme is an interesting idea.

ETA - actually, it'd be more of a pay it forward scheme than pay back, I suppose

 

[SnuggleMum]

My experience is there are more donors than there are facilities for donor milk. Sadly, some hospitals don't agree with the monetary value of EBM (there are screening, transport, storage, treatment costs etc) and so refuse to buy any, or they can't afford it. Many milk banks reject donors. There are lots of women who'd donate if logistic impracticalities could be resolved. My nearest milk bank is over 30 miles away and as I don't drive I can't manage to get there regularly. I have done informal milk sharing though

 

[DLA]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

To those saying 'it's the woman's choice whether she BFs or not', what about the baby's choice? Surely, as babies are born with the urge and ability to latch and feed (except in cases where there's a medical problem), then their biology is telling them to breastfeed. Surely the body that breastfeeding or not affects the most is that of the child? The woman has already sacrificed her body to carry the pregnancy to term, what's another few months of milk production?

Would, say, the ECHR or similar uphold a law that said babies deserve breastmilk?

Well in that case I would say that the mother's right to choose not to BF, but FF instead outweighs the "baby's choice", as the baby will still be properly fed, nourished, cared for. If it were some odd, hypothetical situation where there was no formula and the mother had to BF or the baby would starve, then I would say the babys choice outweighs the mother's choice. In the first scenario it's not necessary to BF for the baby to be healthy.

That makes sense. But how about in countries where formula fed babies aren't adequately fed. Where formula is expensive and conditions are unsanitary, and many many babies die? Would it be ethical to 'force' a woman in that situation?

And how about if any baby has an underlying condition that breastfeeding could help with, say an autoimmune disease, or a digestive condition? Could their moms be forced into breastfeeding?

I'm not saying I think this should happen, btw, but I believe that by debating the extremes you often find what you really believe in

ahhh! you got me on that one. Gosh in 3rd world countries, I'm not sure what the answer is. I can't really imagine and mother choosing not to BF if their child's life absolutely depended on it, but really who knows. That's where I agree that formula companies are very unethical for pushing their products in those areas, where the mother's realize they can't afford to buy it, well after their supply is gone. I absolutely hate to say a woman or anyone really should be "forced" into anything they don't consent to, but if it comes down to BFing or your baby doesn't live, than yeah I think the baby's right to thrive take precedence over the mother's right to choose not to BF.

As for a child with a condition that BF could help, I still don't think it would be right to "force" a woman to BF. But again, I think 99.9% would never choose not to do it or try if their child was sick and would benefit even more than a healthy child per se.

Very interesting stuff though. I love debates!

BTW I LOVE the "every feed counts", I think that's brilliant! It highlights the positive of BFing AND gives credit to women that maybe could only manage one feed or a few weeks, months ect. which I think those women (me technically), walk away with nothing but guilt over there experience which isn't right because even one feed helps your baby and they should be proud, not guilty and ashamed!

 

[Missy86]

I do like every feed counts, its like I bf for a week and should be proud of it

 

[MommaAlexis]

I never said any woman should undergo a psych evaluation, and my opinion has been entirely fair, so my age and whether I have children or not doesn't affect anything.

 

[MommaAlexis]

Also, I loooove every feed counts!

 

[midori1999]

Alex. You are 19 and don't even have a baby. Yet you have recommended PSYCH EVALUATIONS for women that don't want to breastfeed.

I deleted my post earlier because my son woke up abruptly and was crying and I did not want to leave it hanging there while I was gone offline for hours.

It is painfully obvious that many, many of you do not believe anyone has a legitimate medical reason not to BF, and that the right support can fix any breastfeeding issue. It can't.

The memories of what I went through with my first son are nearly 8 years old now and the pain is very fresh. I had plenty of support; 3 lactation consultants. I took the herbs, drank the teas and I had a hospital grade electric pump. The memories of son #2 are extremely fresh as they are only 7 months old. I didn't plan an 11 day hospitalization with a uterine infection when my son was a week old, or any of the other horrible things that happened.

What you people don't seem to get is when you prattle on about risks you are insulting people's babies. You are insulting the babies of women who love their children every much as you do.

I didn't suffer 3 miscarriages in a row and not give up to bring a baby into the world to give it substandard nutrition. But knowing this is what people think and want these things labeled kept me in the house with my first son, too humiliated to leave. And just yesterday, had me hiding a bottle under a towel in a grocery store and I had a horrific nightmare just last night from this very thread.

But, I will not go sit in a corner. I will speak up for women like me who did everything that we could to provide breastmilk for our children but nothing will ever be good enough for some of you.

You want a risks campaign, not benefits.
You want women humiliated and severely inconvenienced by prescription only.
You want a panel of people and a PSYCH EVALUATION for someone who wants to stop/not breastfeed.

Over the top? Those articles were over the top.

And again, this is a bad time and I have to log off soon to go pick my 8 year old up from a science day camp he is going to this week. I am driving 80 miles a day to take him there because my husband and I are such shit parents. I have an 8 year old son who unabashedly runs up to me and tells me he loves me in front of his friends. Shame how that awful formula ruined our bond. I thinkt he new baby is kind of fond of me as well.

In the future, many of you may be humbled in future preganancies and with future babies and maybe, just maybe, someone will get in your face or you'll read something online how you didn't try hard enough, didn't want it hard enough, and we'll see how confident, guilt and grief free you will be able to be.

Go look at your baby right now. Imagine somebody saying things this awful about your child's life prognosis for future health and ailments.

Isn't it awful went your friends or family insult your breastfeeding? Been tolld your starving your baby? Ha! Try being told you're setting your kid up for cancer, low IQ, skin issues and illness. Let's see whose back is up then.

I can look at three of my children and know they are more at risk of certain illnesses etc because I didn't breastfeed them for very long. Does it make me feel bad? No. Because as I said before, even though actually, I could have breastfed them, I didn't know that at the time and I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. Do I feel like anyone is critiscising me for pointing out that not breastfeeding carries risks? No. They are stating facts, not insulting me. If they don't say it, it doesn't make it not true.

It's also not awful for me if friends and familyu make comments about me breastfeeding. I'm quite comfortable in all my decisions for my children and I don't care what anyone else thinks.

I think maybe you need to look to yourself and ask why you feel the way you do, because I don't see anyone else making you feel that way and it's all about perception. I really find it difficult to understand why you feel the way you do and why you feel so victimised by women who happen to breastfeed. Not least as you did breastfeed both your children for a period of time and that will have had a positive impact on them.

Whether you like it or not, the fact is that for a huge proportion of women who stop breastfeeding before they want to, more support and information would have helped them continue for longer. That doesn't mean every woman and no one has said or implied that on this thread. The no.1 reason cited as the reason for stopping breastfeeding 'early' (eg, before a woman wanted to) is percieved low milk supply or worrying about low milk supply, yet evidence tells us that only a very small percentage of women are actually biologically unable to produce enough milk.

I too like the 'every breastfeed counts' message. It's true and it does celebrate what women could do rather than make them feel bad for what they couldn't.

 

[mia_leacey]

So how and who do we lobby with patch's AMAZEBALLS suggestion??? lol

 

[midori1999]

So how and who do we lobby with patch's AMAZEBALLS suggestion??? lol

Every feed counts? NCT are already doing it.

 

[Wildfire81]

I started out bf only, but now have to combi feed due to mastitis I had 2 months ago. I kept going through the pain, but my supply never came back. I am even eating oatmeal and taking fenugreek.

 

[patch2006uk]

So how and who do we lobby with patch's AMAZEBALLS suggestion??? lol

Every feed counts? NCT are already doing it.

They are? I was all ready to go copyright it I came up with it as a phrase when talking to my mom. She bf me for 6 weeks then gave up cos her 'milk just dried up'. Talking to her about BFing can be tricky, as she really believes her milk just went one day. We both liked 'every feed counts', cos it acknowledged that even a single feed is worthwhile, however long you BF for.

The NCT aren't being very vocal with it. Is there any literature you know of with it?

 

[Liesje]

In Noth America it's "Every ounce counts".

 

[vintage67]

I never said any woman should undergo a psych evaluation, and my opinion has been entirely fair, so my age and whether I have children or not doesn't affect anything.

Page 22. Your call for a psych evaluation to get formula.

""Lol, I kind of wish it was just up to a doctor or pediatrician or psych evaluator or SOMETHING to write a prescription because then no one could blame someone for making a bad choice"

 

[Liesje]

I never said any woman should undergo a psych evaluation, and my opinion has been entirely fair, so my age and whether I have children or not doesn't affect anything.

Page 22. Your call for a psych evaluation to get formula.

""Lol, I kind of wish it was just up to a doctor or pediatrician or psych evaluator or SOMETHING to write a prescription because then no one could blame someone for making a bad choice"

If women have troubles making their own choices because there are too many options available to them, I hear North Korea is lovely.

 

[patch2006uk]

I never said any woman should undergo a psych evaluation, and my opinion has been entirely fair, so my age and whether I have children or not doesn't affect anything.

Page 22. Your call for a psych evaluation to get formula.

""Lol, I kind of wish it was just up to a doctor or pediatrician or psych evaluator or SOMETHING to write a prescription because then no one could blame someone for making a bad choice"

Can you really not tell what she means by that? If the decision was taken out of the woman's hands, at least no-one could blame them for 'quitting'.

 

[leelee]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

To those saying 'it's the woman's choice whether she BFs or not', what about the baby's choice? Surely, as babies are born with the urge and ability to latch and feed (except in cases where there's a medical problem), then their biology is telling them to breastfeed. Surely the body that breastfeeding or not affects the most is that of the child? The woman has already sacrificed her body to carry the pregnancy to term, what's another few months of milk production?

Would, say, the ECHR or similar uphold a law that said babies deserve breastmilk?

Just playing devil's advocate - but with a different scenario.

What do people think about with regards to a baby not latching on, or crying everytime his/her mother tries to BF. Is it fair on the baby to push the boob on them, when they clearly don't want it?

Because this is what happened in my situation. DS had an injury to his cheeks due to a forceps delivery. I did the birth crawl with him and he latched on. He never latched on voluntarily again. I think it is because his cheeks were too sore. I had midwifes come for 10 days, each trying their best to latch him on. He was poked, prodded, cajoled and coaxed to the breast. He didn't want to latch on, it was clearly painful for him and yet I was advised again and again to keep at it. Even though he became distressed when I tried to latch him.

What about the baby's rights there? Is it okay to keep trying to latch him for X number of days/weeks until one day he might latch?

In that situation, I gave up on day 10 and expressed for 3 more weeks. As far was I was concerned I was willing to cause such a level of distress for my baby. And I am glad I did because when DD latched on perfectly when she was born I was delighted to experience what natural BF felt like. The situation with DS felt forced and unnatural.

 

[leelee]

I really like 'Every feed counts' too. It does make me feel proud about the amount of BF I did. Very positive

 

[Dragonfly]

Alex was the same , slept whole first day didnt get a feed till next day! he was out of it and wouldnt latch. Rather stressful. Also forceps delivery so he had an injury on his face. But kept at it and he was fine. I did panic but no one ever said formula to me and this is a rather formula feeding area. If he wouldnt take my boob I cant see how he would formula. He was jaundiced to. He made up for it though, expert on boob but took a while to establish.

 

[leelee]

Alex was the same , slept whole first day didnt get a feed till next day! he was out of it and wouldnt latch. Rather stressful. Also forceps delivery so he had an injury on his face. But kept at it and he was fine. I did panic but no one ever said formula to me and this is a rather formula feeding area. If he wouldnt take my boob I cant see how he would formula. He was jaundiced to. He made up for it though, expert on boob but took a while to establish.

But that's my point. Is it right to keep at it? I don't mean you personally. But for me it didn't feel right? I think 10 days x at least 8 feeds per day is approx 80 attempts to latch. That seemed like enough attempts to me. He took to the bottle straight away and it didn't seem to hurt him at all. I didn't force the bottle on him and he wasn't distressed by the botte. He was distressed by all attempts to latch him though.

 

[patch2006uk]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

To those saying 'it's the woman's choice whether she BFs or not', what about the baby's choice? Surely, as babies are born with the urge and ability to latch and feed (except in cases where there's a medical problem), then their biology is telling them to breastfeed. Surely the body that breastfeeding or not affects the most is that of the child? The woman has already sacrificed her body to carry the pregnancy to term, what's another few months of milk production?

Would, say, the ECHR or similar uphold a law that said babies deserve breastmilk?

Just playing devil's advocate - but with a different scenario.

What do people think about with regards to a baby not latching on, or crying everytime his/her mother tries to BF. Is it fair on the baby to push the boob on them, when they clearly don't want it?

Because this is what happened in my situation. DS had an injury to his cheeks due to a forceps delivery. I did the birth crawl with him and he latched on. He never latched on voluntarily again. I think it is because his cheeks were too sore. I had midwifes come for 10 days, each trying their best to latch him on. He was poked, prodded, cajoled and coaxed to the breast. He didn't want to latch on, it was clearly painful for him and yet I was advised again and again to keep at it. Even though he became distressed when I tried to latch him.

What about the baby's rights there? Is it okay to keep trying to latch him for X number of days/weeks until one day he might latch?

In that situation, I gave up on day 10 and expressed for 3 more weeks. As far was I was concerned I was willing to cause such a level of distress for my baby. And I am glad I did because when DD latched on perfectly when she was born I was delighted to experience what natural BF felt like. The situation with DS felt forced and unnatural.

Isaac didn't latch for the first 8 days. He'd passed his meconium, and he had to be suctioned. I didn't hold him for the first 1.5 hours, as I was cleaned out and stitched up after the c-section. Isaac was on a heat mat as he wasn't stabilising. The combination of everything meant that he didn't open his mouth at all. He sucked his bottom lip, but wouldn't open his mouth. I expressed for 8 days, supplemented with formula, as I don't respond well to pumps, and just kept holding him against my chest. We cup fed, no bottles. Eventually, he decided to start trying to latch. The last formula he had was when he was 10 days old, and he was EBF from then until we started weaning.

If the baby can't latch because of a birth injury, then that's not something in the biology of the baby. If there is a problem with the baby, be it a cleft palate or something as simple as a severe tongue and lip tie, then historically the baby probably either wouldn't have survived or would have been given a truly awful breastmilk substitute. Flour water, or cows milk and barley, or something. If I personally was in that situation, I would express as much as possible, but of course I would be open to supplements. Ideally it would be in the form of donated breastmilk, but formula wouldn't be an issue for me either. My own LO had plenty of formula that first week.

Of course, the baby's health has to come first. However, I do believe that all babies will try and latch eventually. How long you persist is down to your own situation. I was ready to give up expressing on day 8. I'd he hadn't latched that day, then I doubt we'd have lasted until the end of the second week. I wouldn't have sacrificed his short term, immediate health, for the long term health of breastfeeding. It's no good him not getting asthma if he dies from dehydration.