Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[Liesje]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

 

[Liesje]

Thanks it's an American site, so not all the info is totally relevant, but it's a good message. I'm not sure about 'ounce' though, as surely the first colostrum feeds are tiny, and I've never measured breastmilk in ounces.

An oz is about 30 mL. The standard newborn bottle here is about 4 oz and a standard bottle is about 8 oz, if that helps with scale.

I believe the British invented Imperial units

I would know that being British sweetie.
I just happen to live in America at the moment.

I just found it unusual that a person from the UK was giving me (or the slogan) a hard time over the use of Imperial measurements lol
In Canada we use metric since cutting ties with the queen but most of the time have to conform to American units and usually we get flack for using metric because older people are still used to Imperial.
Even my doctor yesterday asked how many ounces I pump... our standard unit of measurement is supposed to be metric but all baby-related things are still in pounds and ounces for some reason...
Anyway... I'm sure no one cares...lol

 

[patch2006uk]

Not giving you a hard time, I just don't use fluid ounces. Or ounces at all, for that matter. I weigh my LO in kilos and cook using grams. I wouldn't have any idea how much you were after if you asked me for 2oz of water, I'd have to convert it first.

 

[Liesje]

Me too till I had a kid.

 

[patch2006uk]

It's not so much that I dislike 'ounces' as a measurement, more that breastmilk isn't measured in that way unless you express. And as not everyone expresses, I still think 'every feed' is a better phrase.

 

[leelee]

Leelee-I have some heartbreaking video of Isaac age about 5 days, and he's just bobbing his head into my breast, crying. It frustrated him that he couldn't latch. He clearly wanted to, but something was stopping him. I don't partic buy that you shouldn't do it just because your LO gets a bit distressed-should you never bath them, change their nappy, put then in the car, etc?

Midori-I've searched for 'NCT every feed counts' and nothing useful comes up. There are quite a few interviews where people say they like the message of 'every feed counts', but I can't see any literature with it on.

I was just responding to your post questioning the baby's right to have BM. I was also posing the queation that is it not their right to not have BM if they are distressed?

Obviously every situation is different. I don't know yours and you don't know mine. In my situation is was absolutely the right decision for me not to continue to BF. Where possible, I am not going to put my baby in the position where they are distressed, esp a newborn. It's just not what I would choose to do.

My DS also didn't like the bath (so we bathed him infrequently until he started to like it, he loves it now!), has never liked getting his nappy changed (but it was an angry cry instead of distressed, I used to distract him, now I explain why he needs his nappy changed) and we never had any issues with car seats. I

The difference between BF and the above is that I was spending ages (with and without midwives) trying to latch him on and watching him being distressed.

 

[leelee]

Leelee, Your situation sounds similar to mine. My son didn't have a birth injury but he latched right after I delivered him but after that didn't really at all (except a for few lucky times). When I would try to latch him he just screamed and got more and more hysterical. I started pumping but continued to try to get him to latch for a good 3 months (not at every feed because it was so distressing for him and me). I understand what you mean about at what point is not good for the baby when they are that upset. I used my own judgment and did keep trying but wasn't going to put him through that every time. It was awful to see him that upset, I can't imagine if he had an injury on top of it

I think we all just use our best judgement. The first 2 weeks, I tried to get him to latch just about at every feeding. After that, I did it when I thought he was calm and I had the strength. But I totally see where you're coming from!

Thanks for the post DLA. I am glad you can see what I am trying to get out. I am not saying it is the right decision for everyone and I commend people who continue on in a similar situation; they know their own baby and whether it is right to continue or not.

I do remember trying to latch him on at about 4 weeks, when we had done lots of skin to skin and he was fed and comfortable. And it was the same thing, absolute distress. I never tried again. But it was definitely the right decision for us.

 

[leelee]

Thanks SnuggleMum and Dragonfly - it is good to hear about other experiences.

SnuggleMum - Did you express when your milk came in, or how did you feed?

I syringed the colostrum into DS and then tried to feed him with a bottle cap so he wouldn't get used to the bottle. I don't know if my milk ever came in properly, as I was only ever able to express about 1 ounce eveyr 2 hours. I think when I couldn't even express enough milk, combined with having to supplement with formula, then express every 2 hours and had a baby who wouldn't latch & was distressed when near the boob, I just thought enough is enough. Nothing seemed to be in our favour.

Whereas with DD, it was sore and she cluster fed. But it felt natural and not distressing.

I started expressing on day 4, and cup fed for a few days after that, but once my Mum went back home I switched to bottles (the mess of cup-feeding made me too emotional). I had low supply at first (I think less than 300ml per day is counted a low, and then 300-600 is borderline and 600-800 is classed as a full supply, but I can't recall exactly). I had to use medication to get to a full supply, and a lot of pumping with a double, hospital grade pump. The only reason I managed to carry on was the support I had, even my Dad would help out by washing my pump parts! Knowing other babies had 'got it' later than mine also gave me strength to carry on. It was the absolute hardest thing I've ever done, and I almost drove myself mad, but for me it was a journey I had to go on. Keeping fingers crossed this time will be different!

I was producing about 150mls a day if I was lucky so I guess I was defo in the lower supply category.

Defo fingers crossed that it works out better for you this time. With my DD she latched on straight away and took to it like a duck to water!

 

[vintage67]

My first son, the complete non-latcher, would scream like you were killing him trying to get him latch. The LC that came to the house worked with us a very long time. She even brought nipple shields. She was rough though. She took his head like someone squeezing orange juice shoving it on my breast. My husband was home that day and had to go out on the front porch with tears in his eyes from our son screaming. I finally asked her to leave and she seemed irritated at me and the baby. That was LC #2; I saw 3.

If I could have pumped any kind of quanity of milk, I would have kept pumping. But because only drops were coming out after pumping around the clock I had to stop. My aereolas were peeling. I thought I could be the little engine that could but I couldn't have done anymore. I think the herbs, water, meditation, etc., didn't help because of my PCOS and diabetes.

Knowing you did everything you could doesn't magically make your grief/guilt go away.

 

[Tasha]

I agree about the ounce v feed thing. So many women get hung up on knowing how much breast milk their little one has had, that the it could be seen as more ounces per feed count rather than the every feed counts says to me no matter how much (or little) your baby gets it counts and makes a difference.

 

[midori1999]

I'm sorry, but no one can tell you if you have low supply by how much you can pump. Some women just do to respond well to a pump. Obviously if they have to exclusively express then that isn't condusive to BF, but it isn't an indication of supply.

Vintage, I am genuinely sorry you feel the way you do. You may or may not want to know, but anyone can call themselves a lactation consultant and even of the qualified ones not all are equal. No one should touch you or your baby when trying to encourage latching. Not ever. No way. Sadly, what you describe that 'lactation consultant' doing would discourage a baby from wanting to be anywhere near a breast.

 

[patch2006uk]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

Being susceptible to advertising is nothin to do with being uneducated. We all respond to similar things-colours, images, shelf layout, packaging. It's just human nature.

And it's not about not knowing that breastfeeding is natural, although there are too many people who think boobs are just for sex, and so feedin an infant is 'gross'. I do enjoy the irony of boobs being seen as too sexual to breastfeed. Breasts are sexual, because they show a mate that the woman can nourish a baby. In the same way wide hips are sexual cos they send off an 'I won't die in childbirth' vibe, which apparently men really go for not breastfeeding because boobs are sexual makes no sense. Hands can be sexual. Should we not touch anyone but our OH?

Sorry for the tangent.

 

[DLA]

When I exclusively pumped, I made it game to see how much I could get. Ate tons of oatmeal, took fenugreek and would pump every chance I got (maybe a bit obsessive lol). I got a decent amount of milk but did have to supplement a bit. Don't think there was anything wrong with my supply, just the baby could get more out than the pump unfortunately.

Vintage, Had some similar experiences with pushy LC. Not fun. But I had some good experiences too. Unfortunately the bad ones, were so miserable, horrific and emotional that they stick out more in mind

EDIT: Thinking about this has me all remniscent about BFing. Although it was a largely negative experience for me, there were a few times where he latched at it was absolutely amazing Will never forget that.

 

[Tasha]

In my area, amongst my peers it certainly isnt seen as the natural or normal way. I cant think of one single person aside from me who even tried BF. You get comments like urgh that is disgusting, it is not normal, why would you want to do that etc etc.

This isnt me blinkered either, I FF my first two and it was in part due to the social norm thing, and being uncomfortable. One of my 'problems' with BF was the NIP issue. I will be brave enough to try though, if I am lucky enough to have a next time.

 

[leelee]

In my area, amongst my peers it certainly isnt seen as the natural or normal way. I cant think of one single person aside from me who even tried BF. You get comments like urgh that is disgusting, it is not normal, why would you want to do that etc etc.

This isnt me blinkered either, I FF my first two and it was in part due to the social norm thing, and being uncomfortable. One of my 'problems' with BF was the NIP issue. I will be brave enough to try though, if I am lucky enough to have a next time.

It is shocking that people have that attitude. There is nothing more normal than being fed from a breast.

 

[pinkpolkadot]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

Sorry have to jump in here, 'me me'! Just reminded me of when MIL asked when LO would be moving onto 'normal milk' (meaning from BF to FF). It did make me chuckle at the thought of my 'abnormal' milk

I have to say, among my friends, I have many who have recently had babies. About 1/2 have BF and stuck with it for several months and the other 1/2 have decided to go straight to FF. I have to say, among the FFers I know, FF is generally seen as equal to BF and feeding choice seems to be more of a lifestyle choice (from what they have told me without me probing).

I don't know if changing the way BF is marketed as suggested in the OP would change perception, maybe so (they are all educated ladies I am sure aware of the benefits of BF as they are currently presented), but I do know (if only from reading how this thread has unfolded) that it would cause offence to some.

I guess the key is finding the right balance and I don't think we are quite there with the 'breast is best' approach. If anything I reckon the formula companies were rubbing their hands together when the campaign was released, to me it kind of makes BF seem elite and even unattainable.

 

[Liesje]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

Sorry have to jump in here, 'me me'! Just reminded me of when MIL asked when LO would be moving onto 'normal milk' (meaning from BF to FF). It did make me chuckle at the thought of my 'abnormal' milk

I have to say, among my friends, I have many who have recently had babies. About 1/2 have BF and stuck with it for several months and the other 1/2 have decided to go straight to FF. I have to say, among the FFers I know, FF is generally seen as equal to BF and feeding choice seems to be more of a lifestyle choice (from what they have told me without me probing).

I don't know if changing the way BF is marketed as suggested in the OP would change perception, maybe so (they are all educated ladies I am sure aware of the benefits of BF as they are currently presented), but I do know (if only from reading how this thread has unfolded) that it would cause offence to some.

I guess the key is finding the right balance and I don't think we are quite there with the 'breast is best' approach. If anything I reckon the formula companies were rubbing their hands together when the campaign was released, to me it kind of makes BF seem elite and even unattainable.

This is just an observation, so no one tear my head off for this, but the FF being seen as "normal" seems more predominant in the UK, which seems so odd given that their births tend to be way more natural than ours across the pond... What changes suddenly after the babies are born?
Here we book our c sections like booking a hotel room, then walk out and proudly display our boobs to the viewing public lol

 

[Missy86]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

Sorry have to jump in here, 'me me'! Just reminded me of when MIL asked when LO would be moving onto 'normal milk' (meaning from BF to FF). It did make me chuckle at the thought of my 'abnormal' milk

I have to say, among my friends, I have many who have recently had babies. About 1/2 have BF and stuck with it for several months and the other 1/2 have decided to go straight to FF. I have to say, among the FFers I know, FF is generally seen as equal to BF and feeding choice seems to be more of a lifestyle choice (from what they have told me without me probing).

I don't know if changing the way BF is marketed as suggested in the OP would change perception, maybe so (they are all educated ladies I am sure aware of the benefits of BF as they are currently presented), but I do know (if only from reading how this thread has unfolded) that it would cause offence to some.

I guess the key is finding the right balance and I don't think we are quite there with the 'breast is best' approach. If anything I reckon the formula companies were rubbing their hands together when the campaign was released, to me it kind of makes BF seem elite and even unattainable.

This is just an observation, so no one tear my head off for this, but the FF being seen as "normal" seems more predominant in the UK, which seems so odd given that their births tend to be way more natural than ours across the pond... What changes suddenly after the babies are born?
Here we book our c sections like booking a hotel room, then walk out and proudly display our boobs to the viewing public lol

It does depend on the area, here in Essex there are very bfing focused

 

[pinkpolkadot]

I think it's a lot more helpful to every woman to hear "every ounce of breastmilk helps reduce the risk of X Y Z" as everyone can deduce the alternative.

But breastmilk doesn't reduce risks, formula raises them. We've come full circle!

...but your goal was to convince the uneducated public who was susceptible to advertising, was it not?

I'm still waiting to know of one person who wasn't aware that breastfeeding wasn't "normal" or "natural".

Sorry have to jump in here, 'me me'! Just reminded me of when MIL asked when LO would be moving onto 'normal milk' (meaning from BF to FF). It did make me chuckle at the thought of my 'abnormal' milk

I have to say, among my friends, I have many who have recently had babies. About 1/2 have BF and stuck with it for several months and the other 1/2 have decided to go straight to FF. I have to say, among the FFers I know, FF is generally seen as equal to BF and feeding choice seems to be more of a lifestyle choice (from what they have told me without me probing).

I don't know if changing the way BF is marketed as suggested in the OP would change perception, maybe so (they are all educated ladies I am sure aware of the benefits of BF as they are currently presented), but I do know (if only from reading how this thread has unfolded) that it would cause offence to some.

I guess the key is finding the right balance and I don't think we are quite there with the 'breast is best' approach. If anything I reckon the formula companies were rubbing their hands together when the campaign was released, to me it kind of makes BF seem elite and even unattainable.

This is just an observation, so no one tear my head off for this, but the FF being seen as "normal" seems more predominant in the UK, which seems so odd given that their births tend to be way more natural than ours across the pond... What changes suddenly after the babies are born?
Here we book our c sections like booking a hotel room, then walk out and proudly display our boobs to the viewing public lol

It does depend on the area, here in Essex there are very bfing focused

Yes agreed, and the ladies I know are scattered all over so could be that they have had different experiences. Do you think Essex being more BFing focused has made a difference to the way BF or FF is perceived there?

 

[Missy86]

Most people I known have tried bf here, when I was in hospital after having Rhys no one was ff