Breast is not best, language, guilt and lactivism musings

[leelee]

I am not trying to be offensive. Just being honest saying that I don't think it is a wise decision to continue exclusively BF if it is posing a danger to a baby's health. Surely supplementing (with EBM, donated milk or formula) alongside BF (until supply is up) is better? I'm sure most mothers would agree with this.

The situation I am describing is a real situation so I don't know how you can say there are 'failings' in it! The baby was dehydrated and actually the GP was right to say that he was starving and it was the midwife at fault for not listening to the mother.

Well, I'll be honest and say I don't think it is wise to give formula to a 5 week old when there are alternatives ;-)

I don't know enough about the situation of the OP or your friend to comment any more, only I was told to admit my baby with dehydration, when he wasn't dehydrated, so I know it does happen.

You are entitled to your opinion. In my situation and for many others, formula is the only other alternative available at that stage. If other people are in the position where they can express enough EBM or can have donor milk, then that is great. Awareness should definitely be raised about donor milk, as I think most mothers intending to BF would be aware of expressing.

Bit hypocritical to call my post offensive though and then write something that could offend others though.

I am not offended BTW, I am happy with the choices I made.



I am 100% happy with my choices though, so don't take offence.

 

[katiekittykat]

I have never heard of anyone donating milk/anyone using donated milk/any sort of system where this available in my area. But then, that could just be because it varies from region to region.

I don't really want to go into my breastfeeding 'failure' because that's not what this is about (although I will say there was nothing wrong with my milk or the supply), but I will say that, despite the language used and despite having a healthy FF baby (he's been on Hungry Baby Formula since he was 5 weeks), I would BF any subsequent babies, until the point where I couldn't do it any more. My decision to switch to formula had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that there was an option/substitute/whatever words you want to use - the fact of the matter is, that if it wasn't available, my son would have been on cows milk rather than me continuing to BF.

 

[Liesje]

I finally understand the argument here! (I think?)
The problem with "breast is best" and formula in general is that women are given too many options, and we would like to take away all other options so only a healthcare professional can prescribe any other option once we've finished bullying the woman, ramming our opinion down her throat and achnowledged her as a failure for whatever the reason is that she cannot/does not want to breastfeed?
Kind of like in the US how they're proposing women be forced to have a vagnal probe ultrasound and be shown their baby before they're allowed to have an abortion?
I have an idea, why don't they make one big flourescent building that no on can miss and provide birth control, Plan B, abortions and formula all in the same humiliating place! Women can be forced to explain why they would like a certain service, they can be first advised why they're not "normal" and the "risks" in one streamlined facility. Unless the breastapo has no actual desire to help other women, they just like to feel superior and in order to feel the MOST superior, formula feeding must appear extra "risky".

 

[Ozzieshunni]

I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that all breastfeeders feel superior to FF. I would rather you feed your baby. Bottom line. I'm not a lactivist. I've never made a woman feel guilty for FF. I've never said anything about risks of FF. I've never told a woman her baby will have allergies or be dumb for FF. I've offered support to women struggling. I've helped one girl on here successfully BF her baby after a shaky start.

Where is the guilt? I don't sit here and shove it in your face. Oooooo, look at me! I breastfeed! Go me! I'm better than you are. I don't know where these thoughts are coming from, but people seem to think I'm that kind of person.

ETA: I'm tired of everything I say being picked apart. I'm tired of seeing people on here insult, criticize, argue. It's just more to divide moms when we should be united. I haven't been on BnB as much in the last weeks, but I'm still getting blamed for things I didn't do. I'm sick of it. Plain sick.

 

[SnuggleMum]

Bit hypocritical to call my post offensive though and then write something that could offend others though.

I am not offended BTW, I am happy with the choices I made.



I am 100% happy with my choices though, so don't take offence.

It was done intentionally, to highlight the disparity - I don't think it was okay for you to say what you did, and I don't think it was right for me to say it. I was hoping it'd highlight the imbalance.

 

[xemmax]

I finally understand the argument here! (I think?)
The problem with "breast is best" and formula in general is that women are given too many options, and we would like to take away all other options so only a healthcare professional can prescribe any other option once we've finished bullying the woman, ramming our opinion down her throat and achnowledged her as a failure for whatever the reason is that she cannot/does not want to breastfeed?
Kind of like in the US how they're proposing women be forced to have a vagnal probe ultrasound and be shown their baby before they're allowed to have an abortion?
I have an idea, why don't they make one big flourescent building that no on can miss and provide birth control, Plan B, abortions and formula all in the same humiliating place! Women can be forced to explain why they would like a certain service, they can be first advised why they're not "normal" and the "risks" in one streamlined facility. Unless the breastapo has no actual desire to help other women, they just like to feel superior and in order to feel the MOST superior, formula feeding must appear extra "risky".

Are we reading the same thread?

And as a breastfeeder I'd just like to confirm that I don't feel superior, rather I feel isolated the majority of the time and I'd like to point out that no breastfeeders on the thread have thrown around derogatory terms for anyone who uses formula, so it's ironic that you accuse people of being superior while you deem them 'breastapo'. Nice.

This is not a one against the other thread, and posts like that only serve to segregate when there really is no need. Not helpful and fuelling an unnecessary fire.

ETA - you have entirely missed the point if you think people are suggesting that options should be limited in any way.

 

[creatingpeace]

I think the terms used in the article cited in the OP were derogatory and guilt inducing. Not posters on this thread

 

[jenniferttc1]

I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that all breastfeeders feel superior to FF. I would rather you feed your baby. Bottom line. I'm not a lactivist. I've never made a woman feel guilty for FF. I've never said anything about risks of FF. I've never told a woman her baby will have allergies or be dumb for FF. I've offered support to women struggling. I've helped one girl on here successfully BF her baby after a shaky start.

Where is the guilt? I don't sit here and shove it in your face. Oooooo, look at me! I breastfeed! Go me! I'm better than you are. I don't know where these thoughts are coming from, but people seem to think I'm that kind of person.

ETA: I'm tired of everything I say being picked apart. I'm tired of seeing people on here insult, criticize, argue. It's just more to divide moms when we should be united. I haven't been on BnB as much in the last weeks, but I'm still getting blamed for things I didn't do. I'm sick of it. Plain sick.

I'm with you ozzie!
I don't feel superior at all to FF mommies. I don't care how a child is fed honestly. I have some curiosity on things but to afraid to ask incase its offensive or something on this website. But I am very proud of myself for making it to 4 months so far when in the first 48 hours I didnt think I would make it another day.

 

[leelee]

Bit hypocritical to call my post offensive though and then write something that could offend others though.

I am not offended BTW, I am happy with the choices I made.



I am 100% happy with my choices though, so don't take offence.

It was done intentionally, to highlight the disparity - I don't think it was okay for you to say what you did, and I don't think it was right for me to say it. I was hoping it'd highlight the imbalance.

Then why say it? You could have highlighted it in a different way???

Anyway - back to the orginal topic. As I said in my first post on here, I think awareness of formula alternatives and any proven formula risks should be highlighted while a woman is pregnant. Maybe it could be included in the NHS breastfeeding class. I would also like included in the class, the truth about how hard BF can be, and the different potential difficulties (tongue tie, not latching, cluster feeding). Alongside that, there should be a non-judgemental attitude towards women who decide not to BF. Maybe a more balanced, well rounded course, incorporating everything.

 

[summer rain]

I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that all breastfeeders feel superior to FF. I would rather you feed your baby. Bottom line. I'm not a lactivist. I've never made a woman feel guilty for FF. I've never said anything about risks of FF. I've never told a woman her baby will have allergies or be dumb for FF. I've offered support to women struggling. I've helped one girl on here successfully BF her baby after a shaky start.

Where is the guilt? I don't sit here and shove it in your face. Oooooo, look at me! I breastfeed! Go me! I'm better than you are. I don't know where these thoughts are coming from, but people seem to think I'm that kind of person.

ETA: I'm tired of everything I say being picked apart. I'm tired of seeing people on here insult, criticize, argue. It's just more to divide moms when we should be united. I haven't been on BnB as much in the last weeks, but I'm still getting blamed for things I didn't do. I'm sick of it. Plain sick.

Join my club! Apparently I hate formula and FFers and likened formula to rat poison. I have no clue where people get this from. I FF two of mine too, even my youngest has had formula so clearly have some kind of weird self loathing guilt complex...or sommat xx

 

[Eve]

 

[MikaylasMummy]

Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but I honestly don't think continuing BF'ing to the point where your child is admitted to hospital for dehydration is the correct thing to do. I would rather my child had formula and was well than be dehydrated.

A good friend of mine lives in Oz (Sydney) and said BF was rammed so far down her throat that it caused PND for her. She had poor supply and her child was absoutely starving. Her midwife bullied her into continuing BF despite her own worries and by the time she took the child to the doctor he shouted at her for starving her own child. She still feels terribly guilty for that.[/QUOTE]

How would anyone know their baby wasn't getting enough til there was a sign?I am slightly offended.I did not LET my baby starve,and I bet ffers who said their baby got sick cos of low supply wouldn't be accused of starving their child because they gave up and turned to the obviously much better formula to make their babies better.I expressed my heart out to squeeze out enough milk to supplement in between me feeding her.the next week although with my damaged nipples she was feeding well,my supply came in full force because I DIDN'T GIVE UP,and my daughter gained a kilo in less than a month..all on this supposedly non filling not nutritious enough to sustain your baby breastmilk..how bout that

 

[leelee]

Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but I honestly don't think continuing BF'ing to the point where your child is admitted to hospital for dehydration is the correct thing to do. I would rather my child had formula and was well than be dehydrated.

A good friend of mine lives in Oz (Sydney) and said BF was rammed so far down her throat that it caused PND for her. She had poor supply and her child was absoutely starving. Her midwife bullied her into continuing BF despite her own worries and by the time she took the child to the doctor he shouted at her for starving her own child. She still feels terribly guilty for that.

How would anyone know their baby wasn't getting enough til there was a sign?I am slightly offended.I did not LET my baby starve,and I bet ffers who said their baby got sick cos of low supply wouldn't be accused of starving their child because they gave up and turned to the obviously much better formula to make their babies better.I expressed my heart out to squeeze out enough milk to supplement in between me feeding her.the next week although with my damaged nipples she was feeding well,my supply came in full force because I DIDN'T GIVE UP,and my daughter gained a kilo in less than a month..all on this supposedly non filling not nutritious enough to sustain your baby breastmilk..how bout that [/QUOTE]

It wasn't my intention to offend. And I didn't say you let your child starve. I was talking about my friend, who admits herself that her child was starving. She knew he was hungry, as he was cluster feeding for days on end and was still hungry, and when she mentioned it to the midwife, was told it was normal. I was actually over in Oz visiting at the time and I saw the baby for myself. The poor little thing was starving. I regret not saying anything but I also believed that the midwife was right. I had no children myself at that time.

I suppose what I am trying to say that maybe there needs to be some education around when supplementation is needed (by EBM, formula, or donor milk) to avoid dehydration etc.

When I had both my children I thought the Health Visitors were very good at sitting down and chatting about checking for wet & dirty nappies, sunken fontanelles, getting weight checked regularly etc to try and identify and prevent dehydration. I know dehydration can come upon new babies very quickly, but awareness raising and education is important too. I am glad my HV's were good.

 

[MommaAlexis]

I suppose what I am trying to say that maybe there needs to be some education around when supplementation is needed (by EBM, formula, or donor milk) to avoid dehydration etc.

When I had both my children I thought the Health Visitors were very good at sitting down and chatting about checking for wet & dirty nappies, sunken fontanelles, getting weight checked regularly etc to try and identify and prevent dehydration. I know dehydration can come upon new babies very quickly, but awareness raising and education is important too. I am glad my HV's were good.

This would actually probably lower the amount of people who feel like they have no choice but to FF when they would have liked to BF. Because some people assume that if they're eating a lot and still hungry, they don't have enough food for them and need to quit. When sometimes your supply would be boosted within a day or two because of the amount they eat! So, to teach people the difference between a hungry baby and a starving one, etc. would have less people quitting when they would have liked to continue. This kind of information is not readily available in my area, and I think that is actually really smart to do.

 

[creatingpeace]

My Prenatal teacher also teaches in North Bay so when you go to your prenatal classes you will get that info for sure...you will be inundated with it more then you want to know! They are VERY thorough in this area!

 

[Liesje]

My Prenatal teacher also teaches in North Bay so when you go to your prenatal classes you will get that info for sure...you will be inundated with it more then you want to know! They are VERY thorough in this area!

Same with southern Ontario... So any woman who claims they formula fed their kid because they didn't know around here that breastmilk was better must be clinically braindead.
My bf couldn't help but laugh (he had to be my personal assistant for 2 weeks after my c section so he came along for all my "boob appointments") that we couldn't even count anymore the amount of people that just helped themselves to my boobs lol ...and that was without me asking for any help.

 

[MommaAlexis]

Haha I've had a few friends have the opposite, I do hope I get her then, not sure if I would considering I'm in the "teen" prenatal courses. (I'm turning twenty a couple weeks after the courses start, so I'll probably be the oldest one in there unfortunately) All I've seen so far is people continuously saying how much better it is, but I haven't heard a peep about how to tell when they NEED to be switched. (My courses don't start until July for prenatals, but I wish it was more "out there" outside of just those optional courses)

 

[Kess]

I do wonder if there'd be less self-blaming and guilt going round if BF was seen as the norm and FF as a sometimes necessary substitute for times when BFing doesn't work for a mother-baby pair. Quite apart from the point I made earlier that fewer women would have BFing problems and therefore fewer would be in a position to feel guilty, surely then everyone (most importantly the woman herself) would know she'd done her best and had all the support she needed, and then formula could be seen as akin to glasses for short-sighted people or sign language for a deaf person.

The second article I posted discusses guilt. The author argues that women automatically feel guilty even when they shouldn't, and also that 'guilt' is not exactly the right description of the complex emotions women who cannot BF feel - she suggests things like 'gutted', 'cheated' etc might be more accurate. She describes a situation where a person has a knowledge of aerodynamics, but no pilot's training, and when the pilot of a plane drops dead that person has to take over flying the plane. The plane crashes, many people die. How does the person feel? Men don't feel guilty in that scenario, as a rule, as they know that a knowledge of aerodynamics isn't enough to know how to fly a plane and they did the best they could. Women tend to feel guilt as they feel bad about the deaths of the passengers, even though no reasonable person would blame them for not crashing a plane they had no way of knowing how to fly!

Guilt tends to be what we feel when we think we should've done more. Maybe if BFing were the norm then the few women who weren't able to BF would know they'd done all they could, be supported through their disappointment and hurt, FF with the same emotions that getting glasses engenders, and never be subject to tuts from idiotic people as said idiotic people would know the formula was necessary. There'd be much, much more chance of donor milk, too, as there'd be a greater potential pool of donors.

 

[Dragonfly]

I am fed up being some sort of guilt punch bag for formula feeding mums. I do not look down on them, I dont care how they feed, I breastfeed because I can and want to it dosnt mean I think any less of another mum , whats it to do with them? I had my fair share even on this forum of being called weird for breastfeeding and elsewhere being called a pedo and child abuser to. The name calling, dosnt matter I know I am not them things but its not nice and no wonder so many woman give up breastfeeding with that sort of treatment. Then to be accused of being some anti formula from mums who only seem to formula feed using their own words like poison for formula and putting themselves down? yet no ones said that they just assume it because theres a breastfeeding woman in the area. Seriously breasdtfeeders in areas get enough flack without worrying about how everyone else is doing it. Most woman who come from a place like mine know how it feels to have their choice of feeding picked on and dont do it on others. Time to stop assuming.I dont assume mums who formula feed........ do anything. No assumptions thats just another mum to me.

 

[Wobbles]

I did not report a single post in this thread, thank you, and in all my time on baby on bump have only hit the report button maybe 5 times.

Andella, Ozzie and Vintage...there is a re-occuring pattern here, the same names coming up and reporting posts. Can I suggest as it seems to have gone over your heads when someone else suggests it...If you cannot offer advice or support and are only reading a thread which you know you will get offended by...then just don't read it?
It seems like nobody can even cough in a thread without one of you three reporting it..

Oh really? Well wobbles always told me reports were confidential?
'
Hell yeah i'm going to report when patch & ozzie are being bitchy & arrogant as always.

Andella, Ozzie and Vintage...there is a re-occuring pattern here, the same names coming up and reporting posts. Can I suggest as it seems to have gone over your heads when someone else suggests it...If you cannot offer advice or support and are only reading a thread which you know you will get offended by...then just don't read it?
It seems like nobody can even cough in a thread without one of you three reporting it..

I was also told reports we confidential and to report when we had concerns. Wow. I'm just not going to report anything anymore if this is the result.

A little bit late responding because I was away the weekend.

The contents of report posts are confidential.

A number of members reported what does appear to be an going feud between certain members (this can be within one thread or various). If members report posts that they are involved in then continue to argue it out anyway this becomes extremely frustrating for the team.

When we feel the use of the reported button is being used in a negative way I have no problem when a moderator brings it up, it is a rare action. You are not only causing trouble among yourselves but making the forum discussion uncomfortable for the other members.

I don't like how "but Wobbles said" was used over the actual issue. If you can't see the REAL problem that's not our fault.

Not directed at anyone or this thread but members are abusing the reporting system just because they don't agree with another individual opinion or they didn't agree with yours. EVERYONE on BabyandBump has different lifestyles, parenting choices, etc. if you can't handle that or can't express yourself without being rude and petty you seriously should consider if forums are right for you.

You should be able to distinguish between forum activity that breaks the following rule and another member who has stronger or differing opinions/ways to you and are not scaremongering or being offensive about it.

Antisocial, discriminatory or offensive messages and quotes (intended or otherwise) aimed at the community at large, certain demographics (including parenting styles) or specific members, are not permitted.