Circumcision and cultural differences

[redpoppy]

FGM in a male circumcision debate.... hmmmm... I think its bedtime for me.


(Plus it'd be useless trying to respond to posts from someone who is adamant on ignoring me. *goes off whistling*)

 

[blahblahblah]

Are there big risks to it now? Is that why people tend to get heated while talking about it? Or is it just the whole pain at first thing? I know when I had my son the doctor said yes, it can help with infection, but he mentioned regular good hygiene would help just the same when it came to infection but he also mentioned there isn't much risk to the procedure and there wasn't much pain etc... my doctor (8 yrs ago) was very neutral on the subject... he gave me a medical point of view. He also mentioned it's not recommended anymore because the risks were so low for infection etc... in the first place that medically it wasn't needed anymore Have things changed much?

I don't think the risks are any higher than they've always been. It's just that those risks are being taken for no good reason. I don't think any of us can ever really know how painful it is or isn't. A man having it done as an adult seems to be in agony, how do we know that it isn't the same for a baby? Constant discomfort wouldn't necessarily cause constant crying.

 

[cleckner04]

They say the foreskin has a bunch of extra nerve endings for sexual pleasure but some men can't last very long to begin with so maybe we should line up all those guys and get them circumcised... Poor humor but just trying to lighten it up a bit.

 

[Eve]

Are there big risks to it now? Is that why people tend to get heated while talking about it? Or is it just the whole pain at first thing? I know when I had my son the doctor said yes, it can help with infection, but he mentioned regular good hygiene would help just the same when it came to infection but he also mentioned there isn't much risk to the procedure and there wasn't much pain etc... my doctor (8 yrs ago) was very neutral on the subject... he gave me a medical point of view. He also mentioned it's not recommended anymore because the risks were so low for infection etc... in the first place that medically it wasn't needed anymore Have things changed much?

I don't think the risks are any higher than they've always been. It's just that those risks are being taken for no good reason. I don't think any of us can ever really know how painful it is or isn't. A man having it done as an adult seems to be in agony, how do we know that it isn't the same for a baby? Constant discomfort wouldn't necessarily cause constant crying.

Oh okay, things change so much... in a few years I think I will be told I was wrong to co-sleep, breastfeed, and snuggle! lol It's so hard to keep up with everything! Not comparing circumscision (sp?) to the things mentioned above, that was simply me saying so many things change in general when it comes to babies and parenting. I wouldn't want that taken the wrong way.

I wouldn't want my LO to suffer any pain, but I mean I won't say it's wrong in general as there are religions where it's done and I would never want to offend anyone and their beliefs. I personally wouldn't do it... but that's me

 

[Eve]

They say the foreskin has a bunch of extra nerve endings for sexual pleasure but some men can't last very long to begin with so maybe we should line up all those guys and get them circumcised... Poor humor but just trying to lighten it up a bit.

You are too funny!

 

[trumpetbum]

Moving on from the thread in baby club so we don't take over that thread too much....

Circumcision and the way people in different countries view it. Please no fighting. We can talk about it without being angry. I know this is a VERY heated topic and I've not seen a single one turn out good but we are all adults here so I think we can keep it civilized.

While I think it is important to recognise and respect cultural differences and their impact on why people make decisions regarding their children, I believe that there are some things which are inherently wrong and if we simply accept them due to cultural norms then we perpetuate and normalise undesirable behaviours and practices. In saying that I understand and appreciate the pressure and difficulty faced by parents who go against the norm but feel that sometimes it is necessary to go against the grain.
In my opinion altering a childs body/removing functional tissue for a cultural, aesthetic or otherwise non medical purpose is wrong. While male circumcision is not performed routinely for aesthetic purposes here it is accepted by most people to be an appceptable practice for religious reasons. I do not personally believe that religion makes circumcision of a child any more valid or acceptable.
I would argue that a parents right to religious and cultural freedom should end where another persons autonomy over their body begins with the necessary exception of valid medical decisions while a child lacks capacity to make these.

 

[BlackBerry25]

FGM in a male circumcision debate.... hmmmm... I think its bedtime for me.


(Plus it'd be useless trying to respond to posts from someone who is adamant on ignoring me. *goes off whistling*)

Lol, Well I for one, am not ignoring you.

I think many women who have been female circumcised would say they would not do it to their daughters if they have a voice on the subject. I think in North America, most people have a voice, yet the men still wanna do it. Obviously, most American men, have not been scarred by it and are happy it was done (My OH included)

 

[trumpetbum]

FGM in a male circumcision debate.... hmmmm... I think its bedtime for me.


(Plus it'd be useless trying to respond to posts from someone who is adamant on ignoring me. *goes off whistling*)

Lol, Well I for one, am not ignoring you.

I think many women who have been female circumcised would say they would not do it to their daughters if they have a voice on the subject. I think in North America, most people have a voice, yet the men still wanna do it. Obviously, most American men, have not been scarred by it and are happy it was done (My OH included)

Although there are female voices speaking against FGM who have had it performed and find it wrong, in areas where FGM is still widely performed it is often the mothers who perpetuate the practice fearing that their daughters will be less desirable without it and seeing it as the right thing to do despite being circumcised themselves. In a Human rights watch study of the practice in rural traditional areas of Kurdistan for example, 42% said they chose circumcision for their daughters, 22% said they were advised by their mother in laws and only 2% said their husband advised it. It appears in most communities who widely practice it to be left up to the women who arrange and often perform it.
While in areas where it is a cultural expectation men may express its desirability, this decreases with lessened prevelence of the practice within communities much like attitudes towards the intact penis in the west.

Reasons given for the justification of circumcising daughters are very similar to those given in the western world for circumcising sons which is interesting.

ie: Social norm/cultural expectations, tradition, acculturation, religion, chastity, cleanliness, disease prevention, increased desirability etc.


Disclaimer ( necessary from experience ) : I am not comparing the worst types of FGM to male circumcision.

 

[redpoppy]

FGM in a male circumcision debate.... hmmmm... I think its bedtime for me.


(Plus it'd be useless trying to respond to posts from someone who is adamant on ignoring me. *goes off whistling*)

Lol, Well I for one, am not ignoring you.

I think many women who have been female circumcised would say they would not do it to their daughters if they have a voice on the subject. I think in North America, most people have a voice, yet the men still wanna do it. Obviously, most American men, have not been scarred by it and are happy it was done (My OH included)

Although there are female voices speaking against FGM who have had it performed and find it wrong, in areas where FGM is still widely performed it is often the mothers who perpetuate the practice fearing that their daughters will be less desirable without it and seeing it as the right thing to do despite being circumcised themselves. In a Human rights watch study of the practice in rural traditional areas of Kurdistan for example, 42% said they chose circumcision for their daughters, 22% said they were advised by their mother in laws and only 2% said their husband advised it. It appears in most communities who widely practice it to be left up to the women who arrange and often perform it.
While in areas where it is a cultural expectation men may express its desirability, this decreases with lessened prevelence of the practice within communities much like attitudes towards the intact penis in the west.

Reasons given for the justification of circumcising daughters are very similar to those given in the western world for circumcising sons which is interesting.

ie: Social norm/cultural expectations, tradition, acculturation, religion, chastity, cleanliness, disease prevention, increased desirability etc.


Disclaimer ( necessary from experience ) : I am not comparing the worst types of FGM to male circumcision.

Actually the subject of FGM requires a WHOLE new thread in my opinion. There are varying degrees of female circumcision four official stages. The least harsh is where only the clitoral hood is removed. The way it is done is still not comparable and the ages it is done at is still not comparable. Otherwise this proceedure would be similar to male circumcision.

1. There is no religious doctrine which requires any form of female circumcision.
2. Chastity cannot be kept or encrouaged as far as I understand through male circumcision. Men (and women) in some cultures that practice FGM (mostly African and mostly Muslim) believe that through FGM, women's sexual drive can be contained. I have heard a sheikh publicly (on TV) state that if the women were left intact they would have a problem of crazy oversexed women like "the west" have which would lead to corruption and lust etc. Perhaps castration may be more apt a comparison in certain regards.
3. I have never heard any argument about FGM regarding disease prevention.

As for cultural expectations I totally agree. That's what it comes down to. But if boys aged 6 or 7 were being dragged away under false pretences and having circumcision performed with no anaesthetic whilst being pinned down and with sometimes the worst instruments and under the most unsterile conditions I think the arguments would be totally different.

 

[PeanutBean]

In my first year at uni I lived with a Sudanese girl. Her parents were both gynaes so naturally they protected her from circumcision but her grandmother spent years trying to lure her away with sweets and gifts to get it done behind her parents' backs. She was under strict instructions to never go anywhere with her grandmother. I just can't imagine living in a culture like that.

 

[trumpetbum]

FGM in a male circumcision debate.... hmmmm... I think its bedtime for me.


(Plus it'd be useless trying to respond to posts from someone who is adamant on ignoring me. *goes off whistling*)

Lol, Well I for one, am not ignoring you.

I think many women who have been female circumcised would say they would not do it to their daughters if they have a voice on the subject. I think in North America, most people have a voice, yet the men still wanna do it. Obviously, most American men, have not been scarred by it and are happy it was done (My OH included)

Although there are female voices speaking against FGM who have had it performed and find it wrong, in areas where FGM is still widely performed it is often the mothers who perpetuate the practice fearing that their daughters will be less desirable without it and seeing it as the right thing to do despite being circumcised themselves. In a Human rights watch study of the practice in rural traditional areas of Kurdistan for example, 42% said they chose circumcision for their daughters, 22% said they were advised by their mother in laws and only 2% said their husband advised it. It appears in most communities who widely practice it to be left up to the women who arrange and often perform it.
While in areas where it is a cultural expectation men may express its desirability, this decreases with lessened prevelence of the practice within communities much like attitudes towards the intact penis in the west.

Reasons given for the justification of circumcising daughters are very similar to those given in the western world for circumcising sons which is interesting.

ie: Social norm/cultural expectations, tradition, acculturation, religion, chastity, cleanliness, disease prevention, increased desirability etc.


Disclaimer ( necessary from experience ) : I am not comparing the worst types of FGM to male circumcision.

Actually the subject of FGM requires a WHOLE new thread in my opinion. There are varying degrees of female circumcision four official stages. The least harsh is where only the clitoral hood is removed. The way it is done is still not comparable and the ages it is done at is still not comparable. Otherwise this proceedure would be similar to male circumcision.

Redpoppy I agree it requires it's own thread although on the most basic level of where a parents rights become more important than a childs bodily autonomy I think they are somewhat related. There are versions of FGM which could be compared to male circumcision and yet are illegal. Otoh given the horrendous nature of FGM in many parts of the world, the health implications etc, I agree that it is best discussed as a seperate issue, but wanted to reply to the previous point.

1. There is no religious doctrine which requires any form of female circumcision.

but there are passages from the Qu'ran for example that are used to support the practice although most scholars agree that the practice predates islam. We can argue that Islam does not require female circumcision, just as we can argue that christianity does not require circumcision but it is used as a justification by those who practice it and it is difficult to argue with anothers interpretation of their religion especially when you are of another religion.

2. Chastity cannot be kept or encrouaged as far as I understand through male circumcision. Men (and women) in some cultures that practice FGM (mostly African and mostly Muslim) believe that through FGM, women's sexual drive can be contained. I have heard a sheikh publicly (on TV) state that if the women were left intact they would have a problem of crazy oversexed women like "the west" have which would lead to corruption and lust etc. Perhaps castration may be more apt a comparison in certain regards.

The practice of non religious male circumcision in the western world gained prevalence for precisely the encouragement of chastity, and discouragement of masturbation. Totally ineffective I'd agree and in modern days difficult to relate to the seemingly bizarre and cruel arguments made to justify female circumcision but arguments for FGM today interestingly reflect many of the arguments used past and present for infant male circumcision which was the point that I was attempting to make.

3. I have never heard any argument about FGM regarding disease prevention.

It's not difficult to find these justifications and difficult for us to take seriously especially as they aren't supported by even the most meagre of actual evidence and knowing that poor hygeine and the most common types of FGM have such horrendous health implications but there have been arguments made related to the idea that you illustrated above regarding chastity and the prevention of sexual 'immorality' and promiscuity and subsequent sexually transmitted disease. Arguments that are taken seriously by those who genuinely believe that female cutting is best for their child. After all, few parents actually perform these practices as some kind of sadistic ritual to hurt their children. Female cutting can be and is performed by parents who would see themselves as loving parents who are doing what they feel is best for their child.

As for cultural expectations I totally agree. That's what it comes down to. But if boys aged 6 or 7 were being dragged away under false pretences and having circumcision performed with no anaesthetic whilst being pinned down and with sometimes the worst instruments and under the most unsterile conditions I think the arguments would be totally different.

I agree and I'd like to see male circumcision argued on it's own merit on parenting boards at least as I feel that when these comparisons come up in debate, because of the horrific nature of how FGM is performed, and the clinical nature of how most male circumcision is performed those who are on the fence or who are pro circumcision switch off of the argument as they find the comparison worlds apart.

I do however, as someone who disagrees fundamentally with the right of the parent to alter a childs genitalia for any reason other than a valid medical one, find the similarities in argument interesting and the discussion somewhat related. However if one believes that these choices over a childs body are a parents to make as long as the actual procedure is clinically hygenic, socially acceptable and has few long term health implications for the children involved then it may seem a pointless comparison.

 

[redpoppy]

Being Muslim I can argue quite strongly that theQuran doesn't support fgm. The hadith can do but the hadith say all sorts of things which are open to interpretation. I find it very problematic to compare the two as we need the support of the cultures who practice it to minimise harm. Fgm is far more harmful and oppressive and although comparisons are useful in debate they further isolate the problem in reality in my opinion.

 

[trumpetbum]

Being Muslim I can argue quite strongly that theQuran doesn't support fgm. The hadith can do but the hadith say all sorts of things which are open to interpretation.

It's good to have that point of view, I know that the imam who came to speak to us in my spiritual, religious and emotional health class said the same and dh's friend who is a strict muslim agreed. Logically I can argue that the Quran doesn't support FGM but coming from an outside POV I don't know how strong that argument would be with someone who used this justification, especially as like the bible people often find justification within the text for their own political or ideologicl view points. It would be a little like someone coming in reading a bible and then telling me that my religion said X or Y kwim.

I find it very problematic to compare the two as we need the support of the cultures who practice it to minimise harm. Fgm is far more harmful and oppressive and although comparisons are useful in debate they further isolate the problem in reality in my opinion.

Fair point.

 

[Justagirlxx]

Are you guys seriously comparing circumsision to female genital mutilation?

 

[Tiff]

There are varying degrees of FGM? I don't know much about it, so if I am mistaken in my points please feel free to correct me.

I was under the impression that FGM was to remove the chance of sexual stimulation for a female. Therefore there wouldn't be an issue of fidelity, because the woman wouldn't have any sexual desire.

If that is true, I don't know how it can be even remotely compared to male circumcision. I've yet to meet a man who has been circumcised who said that they have zero sexual stimulation since being circumcised.

I agree with Blackberry's point about if it were so horrific, then why do men keep wanting it done? My OH has told me that if we were ever to have a boy, he'd want him circumcised. When I asked him about it, he asked me if I had a penis. I said no and he asked me how I could go about telling him what he couldn't and couldn't do with our (proverbial) son when I didn't even know what it is like to have one.

It definitely is more culturally acceptable over here. That being said, our health care for my province cut circumcision out of the coverage plan... meaning that the province didn't deem it necessary to be done and its considered cosmetic.

I can see both sides to the argument, but until I really have to think about it I don't know what I'd choose.

 

[Dopeyjopey]

There are varying degrees of FGM? I don't know much about it, so if I am mistaken in my points please feel free to correct me.

I was under the impression that FGM was to remove the chance of sexual stimulation for a female. Therefore there wouldn't be an issue of fidelity, because the woman wouldn't have any sexual desire.

If that is true, I don't know how it can be even remotely compared to male circumcision. I've yet to meet a man who has been circumcised who said that they have zero sexual stimulation since being circumcised.

I agree with Blackberry's point about if it were so horrific, then why do men keep wanting it done? My OH has told me that if we were ever to have a boy, he'd want him circumcised. When I asked him about it, he asked me if I had a penis. I said no and he asked me how I could go about telling him what he couldn't and couldn't do with our (proverbial) son when I didn't even know what it is like to have one.

It definitely is more culturally acceptable over here. That being said, our health care for my province cut circumcision out of the coverage plan... meaning that the province didn't deem it necessary to be done and its considered cosmetic.

I can see both sides to the argument, but until I really have to think about it I don't know what I'd choose.

Could you say the same but to ask if your OH has a foreskin? That sounds weird now i've typed it

Personally i would only circumsize for medical reasons. If my religion required it to be done i would question my beliefs to be honest, maybe because i just can't understand how it is relevent.

 

[JASMAK]

There is three different types of female circ. The one that most people refer to be the same is just removing the clitoral hood (the least evasive). It is the same part that is removed from the male and is called the same thing (the prepuce).

 

[Tiff]

There are varying degrees of FGM? I don't know much about it, so if I am mistaken in my points please feel free to correct me.

I was under the impression that FGM was to remove the chance of sexual stimulation for a female. Therefore there wouldn't be an issue of fidelity, because the woman wouldn't have any sexual desire.

If that is true, I don't know how it can be even remotely compared to male circumcision. I've yet to meet a man who has been circumcised who said that they have zero sexual stimulation since being circumcised.

I agree with Blackberry's point about if it were so horrific, then why do men keep wanting it done? My OH has told me that if we were ever to have a boy, he'd want him circumcised. When I asked him about it, he asked me if I had a penis. I said no and he asked me how I could go about telling him what he couldn't and couldn't do with our (proverbial) son when I didn't even know what it is like to have one.

It definitely is more culturally acceptable over here. That being said, our health care for my province cut circumcision out of the coverage plan... meaning that the province didn't deem it necessary to be done and its considered cosmetic.

I can see both sides to the argument, but until I really have to think about it I don't know what I'd choose.

Could you say the same but to ask if your OH has a foreskin? That sounds weird now i've typed it

Personally i would only circumsize for medical reasons. If my religion required it to be done i would question my beliefs to be honest, maybe because i just can't understand how it is relevent.

I think he meant it more along the lines that since he doesn't miss his and isn't scarred or traumatized by it, and still immensely enjoys sex then he has better knowledge of how it affects someone over me, who doesn't have a penis, foreskin nor been through the procedure.

I don't know if I agree with him or not, but I do know that I will never be able to convince him that I (as a woman) knows more/better about it than he does.

 

[Dopeyjopey]

Aaah, i get it a bit better now

It must be very hard for parents who have differing views.

P.S Tiff just noticed your tickers

 

[Tiff]

You like my Spam n' beans?