Illegal drugs - worse than legal ones?

[PeanutBean]

Lol pp! Dunno what my mum would do! Tell you what, whatever Amsterdam might have right about drugs their airport with giant rifle armed guards is terrifying!

 

[PeanutBean]

Sorry what's your three point scenario? Followed the link but...

 

[polo_princess]

Redpoppy do you want to see alcohol made illegal?

Well, no. But I can see why people do or would want that. I think people who are consistently acting like idiots every weekend need something done about them perhaps but I have no genius ideas in that regard. However, I don't believe in adding more legislation on most issues. We don't need race hate laws for example in my opinion to prosecute violent behaviour or inciting violent behaviour for whatever reason. I don't think we need to introduce alcohol specific laws. If someone is getting I trouble again and again they probably need help or to be incarcerated. I think (although I'm not sure) that there are enough laws to protect us in that regard.

however I do think that it's ridiculous that alcohol is legal and cannabis isn't. Despite the ridiculous nature of this fact, I till don't think legalising cannabis is the answer. Decriminalising is. As my three point scenario points out. Although no one seems to be addressing it.

..

 

[polo_princess]

Sorry, didnt mean to do that

 

[polo_princess]

And I'd like to go back to a point I made which made a lot of sense to me (well it would wouldn't it)

By decriminalising as opposed to legalising we simply take away the injustice in my eyes.

If someone is dangerous whether on cannabis or not and has been violent or broken the law then they need to be arrested and have legal proceedings take place.

If someone is ADDICTED to ANY drug or anything which impedes their life and judgement (including the legal drugs) then surely they need help and shouldn't we be a caring society that offers it to them instead of being harsh no matter how their lives lead them to that place (abuse, trauma, mental health problems) and just shipping them off to prison?

And if someone is not a danger, is not addicted but a responsible adult who uses recreationally without harming anyone, surely they don't deserve to be locked up?

The issue is not what the law is now, it's about justice and fairness in society without having civil liberties stripped. It's about what we would like society to be and what it should be.

I meant to do this just for those who couldnt find it

 

[polo_princess]

Redpoppy, i think in brief your idea is a very good one, but are we just limiting this to cannibis? All class C drugs or all classes of drugs?

How would we ensure fairness across the board if it were only to apply to one "drug"?

 

[PeanutBean]

But what are the three points? I also don't understand what the particular differences are between decriminalising and legalising.

 

[polo_princess]

I interpreted the 3 points as ..

Someone being a danger

Someone being addicted

Someone being responsible

I hope thats what you meant, if not, sorry

 

[Dragonfly]

Atm i smoke cigarettes daily and drink alcohol 3-4 times a week, not to get drunk, but will have a bottle of wine over dinner and whilst watching tv.

In my "youth" i went through a phase of smoking pot but i outgrew it, dabbled with ecstasy a couple of times, but my pitfall on and off over the years was cocaine, i wouldnt say i was an overly regular user, certainley not an addict, more a social user, the same as some people only smoke in social situations. I packed that in and havent touched it for around 4 years

So i guess now, its probably apparent why im very relaxed about the alcohol and cigarettes since they play a big part of my life. Growing up my stepfather was an alcoholic so ive always known to be responsible with when it comes to alcohol and not overdo it or push my limits

I started drugs at 14, was Estacy. Smoked from 13 or abouts that. Was trying to get parents attention which didnt seem to work. Then smoked a lot of weed. I actually remember being off my head in school a bit. I wasnt addicted but I lost a lot of weight and got depression. Met someone and was ok for a few years, broke up was always on anti depressants and pain killers for my nerve pain, was addicted to them. Binned them as I felt like crap for far to long. went back on to Estacy, not addicted just here aqnd there with mates. Cocaine I spend a hell of a lot on on a party one night. I rarely drank but never mixed the two. Would prefer to get stoned than drunk and so did so many others. I have not a good past on drugs, some bad stuff happened, some happy times. Not something I am proud of but been there and done that sort of things and all grown up and wise now. Last thing i took was a smoke of a joint 5 years ago. Last cig near 2 years ago. Same as drink. Done more harm than good to me but it made me who I am.

 

[redpoppy]

Well in terms of "for all drugs" I think the element of harm needs to come into context. Addiction being a primary one. Do I really think everyone who ever did hard drugs ever in their lifetime should go to jail? No I don't. I don't even think people who do drugs that are addictive and harm their own bodies should go to jail if they KNOW what they are doing, if they are mentally stable and are adults.

BUT I do think legalising all drugs does tell society that they're fine and dandy and possibly that they have no risks. There should be a HIGH level of education and a HIGH level of control which I'm not really sure is plausible. Also, I honestly think with all the debating and educating in the world and with the whole country listening with open ears and hearts there is no way a majority would want all drugs to be legalised. The arguments don't seem compelling enough for the vast majority.

PB: regarding my three point scenario, do you think its a fair thing to say in all three scenarios? Because if so you're in favour of decriminalising.

As for the difference between legal and decriminalised: Legal would lead to the mass production and sale of cannabis. Some would be grown and marketed as the stuff which is really going to blow your mind etc. There would be cafes and shops etc. or licensed providers. Decriminalisation would suggest that consumption didn't in itself carry a hefty punishment. Definitely not for consumption and probably not for growing your own organic plant in the garden. This would mean you wouldn't have to rely on dealers. I've never met one and I don't really like the idea of meeting one as I don't know if they're low level grow your own hippy types or if they're connected to some organised crime network. Also organised crime would lose out quite badly. I also think perhaps allowing MS sufferers and cancer patients and people who suffer all types of things which are known to be helped by cannabis should be allowed to medical grade stuff prescribed.

Cannabis has no side effects for the majority of people especially compared to a lot of stronger legally prescribed painkillers.

Well that's what decriminalisation would suggest to me.

 

[PeanutBean]

I do think that if the clinical trials come (came) out in favour of a medical cannabis extract then that should be available on prescription as with any other pain relief. For your three scenarios, well I'm not sure. Probably taking me even further away from your stand point I think there is a big difference between 'bad' behaviour that is done under the influence of some drug than that not done under the influence. I don't mean to imply that being under the influence negates responsibility in some way but that the outcome is different. I don't know how to put my feelings into words. (Rare for me! lol)

Say a bunch of yobs going out one night and one of them decks this random guy for no reason that's really terrible. The same group go out pissed and deck a guy well it's just as bad but potentially (not necessarily) not premeditated in the way it would appear in the first instance. Or, a husband beats his wife day in day out. Terrible. But does it drunk on one occasion also terrible but maybe something can be sought for alcoholism, maybe it's a manifestation of depression that has led to the drinking, maybe there's a remedy and mediation to be found to improve things all round. Or someone pushes someone off a cliff when under no influence, WTF! Someone else does it because they were hallucinating from LSD or whatever and to them there was some totally different scenario playing out in their head and they had no idea what they were doing.

I probably sound off the wall in this post! LOL I just think that doing things under the influence is different from doing it totally sober. And it might be worse too, I know in the examples I'm painting an excuse but it could be someone goes out to get drunk or whatever on purpose. Like I think causing death by driving when under the influence is most likely worse than when not. I'm assuming, but the former will most likely be through impaired judgement, reduced inhibition leading to wreckless driving etc; the latter might have been totally mad or it might've been a kid was pushed into the road by his mates (as happens) and the driver couldn't have done anything. I mean this is all random speculation. Every case is different with or without drugs but I do think drugs paints a different picture of the event.

Does this relate to your scenarios or have I unwittingly turned the thread in a very controversial direction!?

 

[rubixcyoob.]

In answer to PP's question I used to drink a hell of a lot, to the point I cannot remember most of my freshers week at all (not just saying that as hyperbole, but being completely honest), I passed out in Glasgow a few times (with my friends there and then woke up around them to throw up and continue drinking), have falllen up and down many stairs, can't remember my leaving party all too well, and there are some days I'm pretty sure just don't ecist anymore. I was awful. When I was in school, every Saturday I'd have 3L cider (sometimes with blackcurrant, sometimes without), share 1L vodka and some mixer with a friend, 1 bottle of peach schnapps between us and 1 bottle of Cactus Jacks each and whatever else people would jump in for us.

I have smoked. Last summer I got my first evert taste of a cigarette on holiday, when I moved out to halls for uni I became a regular smoker, although I never craved one, so I'm assuming I wasn't fully addicted, but near enough.

I've also done weed. A few times in uni before pregnancy and I am ashamed to admit this, but the night after I found out about LO I got high (I was going to get an a at first, so I genuinely didn't feel like I was doing that much wrong), but the anixiety, guilt and sadness over what I had done made me go 'green'. I literally couldn't breathe, felt like my heart was going too fast, couldn't focus, couldn't walk, felt like I was going to pee myself 24//7, threw up everywhere etc. Which I fully deserve and I am so thankful LO was not hurt. Don't berate me for it, I cried many times over this during pregnancy and it was a sigh of relief in the hospital knowing my stupidity and selfishness had not harmed my baby.

Since I became pregnant and had LO I never smoked anything nor drank at all during pregnancy, and since LO I have had maybe 5/6 glasses of wine (4/5 at OH's 19th birthday, but small glasses and 1 Friday just gone because OHs little brother had a party since their mum was away and LO was being watched by my parents so I could have a little night for just me and OH), I have had maybe 2 cigarettes (both at OH's 19th) and smoked a £20 bag myself in total (most of that happened when I was at OH's 19th/when his mum wasn't there, since it was just me and OH, no LO, and before I touched him again when I got home I had brushed my teeth many times, fully washed my hair and body and didn't let him near my smelly clothes).

 

[aob1013]

AOB - i think you have missed my point entirely. You said yourself you think alcohol and tobacco should be illegal (which, for the last time, are drugs!!!) but then say the law doesn't need to be changed? The whole issue i have is that the gov seem to be pretending to look after us by making certain drugs illegal, whilst letting us pump our bodies full of toxins from other, legal - but still very much harmful - drugs. Personally I would just quite like the hypocricy to end and for them to pick one side of the fence instead of sitting on it.

It is saddening to see that those people who campaigned to get laws changed are not respected at all by some people. I believe we should all be extremely thankful for what happened in the past, 2010 wouldn't be the same without it.

I dont really get that either. alcohol and tobacco are drugs thats fact. people cant choose to 'believe' something is not a drug. they are by definition, substances that affect the functioning of the mind and body, hence are drugs.

it is extremely sad though that for the sake of the money it brings in tht alcohol and tobacco remain legal - i mean what other reason could there be for not making them illegal? its madness!

I do think alcohol and cigs are drugs ............. because they are. But, i don't believe they are as dangerous as drugs. I do think cigs should be illegal, definately. Alcohol, i'm not too sure as i hardly drink so don't really have an opinion on it.

Again, i don't think the law should be changed in relation to the drugs that are illegal now. I would like to see cigs made illegal though.

Dopeyjopey, i agree with you that they need to make their minds up. The reason why cigs aren't illegal is because they make so much money out of them!

your language seems to suggest that you don't think they are drugs as you said "I don't believe they're as dangerous as drugs" But they are drugs. SO um...

As for not having an opinion on alcohol as you hardly drink it... you seem to have an opinion on cannabis and you don't seem to take that either.

I would suggest you're softer on alcohol because you do occasionally partake in it and therefore don't consider it as harmful although it is for many other people.

Being pedantic yes alcohol and cigarettes are 'drugs' but to me real drugs are the illegal ones, cannibis, coke, heroin etc, which is why they are illegal. At the end of the day, they are ALL drugs but my personal belief is that cigarettes and alcohol are the lesser evil. My opinion is not wrong, it's just what i think.

Yes i have an opinion on cannibis and it's because i personally believe drugs (the illegal ones's to makes that clear yet again) should be avoided, and so do the government and health professionals.

I have smoked weed many times, i went through a bad patch after being raped and it did me no good. I didn't react very well to weed. I just don't believe people should cosume drugs. And i would have said that before i had taken weed myself. The current drugs that are illegal should stay illegal, alcohol and cigarettes are the lesser evil in my opinion.

What I don't understand is how you think cigarettes and alcohol are of the "lesser evil" yet they kill so many people every year. Marijuana hasn't caused any deaths. If the health professionals think pot should be avoided then they wouldn't be prescribing them.

I feel you are dancing around in a circle. You have no new points to make about this except..."I think its bad" and "My government says No No" this IMO is very naive.

I'm sorry to hear about that rough patch in your life.

I have smoked pot for 4 years, and not once have I become irate and uncontrollable. (Minus the uncontrollable laughter or munchies!) I can tell you all the benefits and research until I'm blue in the face, but your gonna have your own opinion and make your own decisions about mary jane. I think you just need to learn to accept some people are different and we can't all be as perfect as you.

I'll ignore your last sarcastic sentence, as it kinda puts a dampner on the point you are trying to make .. it looks like you have lost your rag you when you need to insult

I'm not perfect, neither are you, and i DO accept other people are different .. i just disagree with them. Still accept people are different as that's life, doesn't mean i cant disagree with them whilst trying to respect them. I accept you do drugs, as that's your affair i just disagree with it and don't think we should do them.

I don't have new points to make at all, i have said the same things all the way through and i don't have anything to add.

If the gov/health professionals also thought they aren't that harmful they would be legal and accessible to everyone, not just prescribed behind closed doors.

I have not been brought up around drugs, my family are strict on drug use and believe drugs are not good for people. I agree with them. That's my opinion, doesn't make me more 'perfect' than anyone. An opinion cannot be wrong.

I obviously think everyone shoudl have an opinion and be as educated on the matter as possible and opinions MUST vary otherwise we'd be living in some dull scary world.

However what bothers me about your stance (and I'm allowed to be bothered by it I believe ) is that i get the feeling when you say the above (in bold) you're talking ILLEGAL drugs. I doubt your whole family are against alcohol unless you're from any particularly religious background or your family have all had very particular bad experiences with alcohol.

You seem to deem alcohol acceptable because of it's legality not because of it's pros and cons in my opinion and therefore your language seems (if I'm right and your whole family are not jointly anti alcohol) to give away time and again that although you accept alcohol is a drug you don't actually give it drug status despite the fact that it is more harmful, more addictive and causes more people who use it to be violent than cannabis. There are also more people dying of direct alcohol poisoning than ever have died from "overdosing" on cannabis

Health professionals have opinions like anyone else as do the government. They are human. Unless there is valid research and study into the issues anyone can say anything but surely proof is more important?

But you sound like the government and the health professionals got together and had a convention where they agreed that the illegal drugs were tested and proved to be "dangerous" which isn't what happened. In fact the advisory council on the Misuse of drugs which has health professionals as well as other people among it's members has been ignored because the public don't want to hear the rational arguments and instead choose to be "outraged' and "disgusted" MOST times without ever having any knowledge or exposure to the topic at all.

Yes, i'm talking about illegal drugs.

I always take the Gov and professional advice and the Gov and health professionals as a whole have decided to make certain drugs against the law.

I personally believe that alcohol and cigarettes are the lesser evil, and drugs (the illegal one's ) are dangerous and should remain illegal. I would like to see cigarette added to the illegal list though.

I agree it's not good for people to be outraged and disgusted when they have no idea, it's important for us all to make an educated judgement/opinion etc.

*For future reference, when i say drugs i mean illegal drugs.

 

[PeanutBean]

Can I just ask, would posters mind including a bit less quote? Very selfish but I'm on my phone and have to scroll down ages before I find the new bit of post and then can't remember who was posting and have to scroll up again!

 

[Dopeyjopey]

PP... um, i've taken a lot in the past...

Alcohol, cigarettes, mdma, speed, mdai, 4mmc, 'pills', cocaine, cannabis, changra, caffeine and probably more that i don't remember. I've only been addicted to tobacco. I know myself well enough to stay away from most entheogens.

NOW i smoke about 10 a day and that's it.

 

[redpoppy]

Yes, i'm talking about illegal drugs.

I always take the Gov and professional advice and the Gov and health professionals as a whole have decided to make certain drugs against the law.

I personally believe that alcohol and cigarettes are the lesser evil, and drugs (the illegal one's ) are dangerous and should remain illegal. I would like to see cigarette added to the illegal list though.

I agree it's not good for people to be outraged and disgusted when they have no idea, it's important for us all to make an educated judgement/opinion etc.

*For future reference, when i say drugs i mean illegal drugs.

But you're not taking the professional's advice at all. If you took professional advice you'd be looking at the advice of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (the ACMD) and you'd think that cannabis was less harmful than alcohol which is what they decided after much research and analysis of the situation.

I can hear you repeating your argument but you're not stating where you get your information from? Where have you learned that alcohol is less damaging and less addictive and less harmful than cannabis hence making it a lesser evil? You can have an opinion and stick my it but it really helps the debate if you can cite your influence and especially where you have gathered your information from?

I honestly think after reading your last response that you're just conditioned to think alcohol is less dangerous because of it's legality not because of any logical proof or reason or study or research. I would very much like to know where your opinion was formed from? I know you could end up just saying "well it's illegal for a reason" but that's blindly accepting that "someone somewhere" knows better and so you don't want to think about it.

 

[redpoppy]

I do think that if the clinical trials come (came) out in favour of a medical cannabis extract then that should be available on prescription as with any other pain relief. For your three scenarios, well I'm not sure. Probably taking me even further away from your stand point I think there is a big difference between 'bad' behaviour that is done under the influence of some drug than that not done under the influence. I don't mean to imply that being under the influence negates responsibility in some way but that the outcome is different. I don't know how to put my feelings into words. (Rare for me! lol)

Say a bunch of yobs going out one night and one of them decks this random guy for no reason that's really terrible. The same group go out pissed and deck a guy well it's just as bad but potentially (not necessarily) not premeditated in the way it would appear in the first instance. Or, a husband beats his wife day in day out. Terrible. But does it drunk on one occasion also terrible but maybe something can be sought for alcoholism, maybe it's a manifestation of depression that has led to the drinking, maybe there's a remedy and mediation to be found to improve things all round. Or someone pushes someone off a cliff when under no influence, WTF! Someone else does it because they were hallucinating from LSD or whatever and to them there was some totally different scenario playing out in their head and they had no idea what they were doing.

I probably sound off the wall in this post! LOL I just think that doing things under the influence is different from doing it totally sober. And it might be worse too, I know in the examples I'm painting an excuse but it could be someone goes out to get drunk or whatever on purpose. Like I think causing death by driving when under the influence is most likely worse than when not. I'm assuming, but the former will most likely be through impaired judgement, reduced inhibition leading to wreckless driving etc; the latter might have been totally mad or it might've been a kid was pushed into the road by his mates (as happens) and the driver couldn't have done anything. I mean this is all random speculation. Every case is different with or without drugs but I do think drugs paints a different picture of the event.

Does this relate to your scenarios or have I unwittingly turned the thread in a very controversial direction!?

Will try not to quote more than one post at a time max!


I suppose to me, if there is a drug that makes people TOTALLY unaware of where they are, what is real and what they are doing then that should be made (very!) illegal or given in a controlled setting with a doctor or scientist etc.

But most drugs people know what's going on. The first time you took any drug you'd be a total idiot to think "I know I'm going to go take some kids for a ride on a bus and then I'll head off to a factory to operate some heavy machinery" or whatever. If you're tripping on a cliff you're an idiot. I mean seriously! If you've decided to take a drug and put yourself in a situation where you can harm yourself or others then I hate being harsh but you're not the brightest and hopefully you can't produce offspring due to some survival of the fittest coming through.

But a crime is a crime (i'm talking of the crimes that HURT others) and unless there are extenuating circumstances then the penalties are approx fixed. I'm quite proud that in this country we don't just have a set penalty for many crimes but a range and the judge can with wisdom (hopefully) decide which end of the spectrum you should be on. Or indeed if youhave been drugged without your knowledge (seen the hangover yet guys!? ) then its a totally different scenario.

But it still goes on to the issue of legality. Why is alcohol legal and fine and acceptable when it's MORE dangerous and addictive? That is the crux of the issue! We don't need legally bought and sold drugs for young kids to go get high to as they do with alcohol. But decriminalising means that people aren't going through the legal system for no reason.

At least the governor of California sees sense

 

[PeanutBean]

Well there are a lot of stupid people in the world with or without drugs! I believe that drugs can change your mind sufficiently that they still count as a part of the circumstances, in whatever capacity. My examples were of course rubbish, I'm hopeless at thinking of fictional examples, no creativity see?

The answer to the alcohol question I've said before. It's irrational when compared to other drugs but I think it would be impossible to ban.

Thanks for quoting less! With our posts each one is massive anyway!

 

[Blah11]

I don't smoke, don't take drugs and don't drink alcohol cept once in a blue moon and I don't get drunk, i just do it socially and tbh, I dont think they should be legalised. Im undecided about alcohol but theres no much use thinking about it too much as it will never become illegal. Weed I think is disgusting but I know loads of people are really casual about it and ive smelled it loads walking in the town centre in the middle of the day Weird.

 

[polo_princess]

What about Magic (miaow miaow)? Lets throw that into the pot, opposite of illegal to legal ... that was perfectly legal up until very recently but look how dangerous that is? I think it kind of justifies in some strange way that although "bad",cigarettes and alcohol arent ranked up there in how bad the short term effect can be, its more pronlonged abuse of them

Jeez, stuffing plant food up your nose? Really? How was that EVER legal?