IVF/ICSI in July

[Leilani]

They told me at the hospital that you will never produce more follies than you are born with so if you only ever had say 5 then thats all you will ever have no matter how high the drugs are... i will bei interested to see how many i have this time. I did have 9 last time and two small ones that did not grow enough to produce any eggs. Maybe i only have 11? Jesus its worrying.

This is not quite true Sammy - either your hospital are misinformed, or you slightly mis-understood what you were told.

You are born with all the eggs you are ever going to have, follicles are different things - they are like doors for your eggs to leave your ovaries from. At the start of each cycle (whether on IVF or not) your ovaries are ready to develop a certain number of follicles, and this usually diminishes as your ovarian reserve diminishes - so as a teenager you might have 20-30+ potential follicles at the start of each month, and as you get older it gets less, so by the time you reach your mid 30s, at the start of each cycle you may only have 10 potential follicles a month (though if you have good reserves it could still be 20+). In none medicated cycles, very early on one follicle becomes dominant and grows and matures one egg, and all the other follicles just give up the race and those eggs just get absorbed by your body. So in an IVF cycle, the maximum number of follicles you will potentially grow during that cycle can be seen via an antral follicle scan (not all clinics do this, as seeing it can't change it, however, if there are a large number of antral follicles, then this should be taken into consideration with drug doses), and this will vary from month to month, but it's a downward trend.

This also explains why repeated IVF and other medicated cycles don't bring on the menopause any earlier than if you don't have treatment. Our FS explained it like a 100m sprint, in a regular race 10 athletes line up to start, but there is only one winner, but in an IVF cycle, there is a potential 10-way tie for first place, as all the athletes have taken performing enhancing drugs!

Ladies with PCOS are pretty much the same, but don't get an early dominant follicle, so often end up with many partially matured eggs, and so have trouble getting pregnant as they don't so often produce good mature eggs.

 

[Deeni]

Hey guys, I am feeling much better today. I am spotting and AF should be right around the corner. I can't believe it and can't wait to get started on the stims. I think I am behind everyone else at this point. Haha.

Angel, I'm sorry you are disappointed with the number of follies. Nine still sounds really good though.

Blue, I'm thinking about you and hoping you are feeling better.

BabyChristie, How many days have you been on the Menopur? What is your dose? I think I will be using two vials and injecting 1cc. Did you start feeling the side effects right away? When is your next scan? Good luck!

Springflower, if my AF comes tomorrow (usually she arrives in the middle of the night) then we will be right on track together

Chesca, Sammy, hopes (and anyone else I missed) I hope you are all doing well!!

Oh and Leilani, I have to say that your post was awesome. I seriously learned a lot. I especially liked the race analogy and how all the racers are on performance enhancing drugs!! lol

 

[Leilani]

The race analogy was something the FS told us on Monday after my DH asked if there were any risks or side effects of IVF or if it meant early menopause - I liked the answer, but loved the fact my DH asked something, and something sensible at that!

 

[Blue12]

Leilani - That is a very impressive question for your dh. To be honest I remember thinking this too - so thank you. I have to tell you though how strange it is... the two cycles before my ivf I had 30 follicles at my antral follicle scan ... and then for my ivf cycle I had 46 follicles at my antral follicle scan - strange eh!!!

Hope everyone is doing well - soo many people are at the stim stage now and nearing the EC stage - so exciting. I will properly catch up very soon!

 

[Leilani]

Leilani - That is a very impressive question for your dh. To be honest I remember thinking this too - so thank you. I have to tell you though how strange it is... the two cycles before my ivf I had 30 follicles at my antral follicle scan ... and then for my ivf cycle I had 46 follicles at my antral follicle scan - strange eh!!!

Hope everyone is doing well - soo many people are at the stim stage now and nearing the EC stage - so exciting. I will properly catch up very soon!

That's because you're special! Did your plan for this cycle change after your antral scan, or did they stick with their initial doses?

 

[Blue12]

They had not given me doses yet - they said that they were waiting for the antral follicle results along with the amh results - so they literally gave me my doses on the day I started stims. The crazy part is my estrogen levels were above 30,000 - no wonder I ended up in this situation.

 

[Blue12]

Deeni – I really hope that your af shows really soon so that you can get on to the next phase!!!

Springflower – only 1 more day until your scan!!! I hope you can start those stims!!!

Angel – I hope your body is working hard growing your folliesfor your scan Monday – only 4 days now till your next scan!!!

Hopesforababy – Good for you for quiting your job – that must have bee hard but also feel good konwig that you are reducing stress. Re: your SIL – when my SIL had her baby in Jan – it was one of the most devastating moments for me – I have issues with her too. I was so torn because I wanted to see the baby badly, but also was so jealous of their happiest moment. When I got there she did rub it in a bit about how happy they were – but we made the visit short – I held myself together – and then just cried the whole way home. I feel better that I did it – proved to her “she can’t get to me” if that even makes sense. that is so hard hun!!!

Chesca – I had 20 eggs, 12 mature, but only 3 fertilized – yikes! We only had icsi on half thanks goodness or we would have had none. How are you doing right now? Where are you at – at this point?

Sammy – it must be hard for sure having this ivf date so close to shaylees ivf dates. Maybe that means that this time of year is lucky for you getting pg. fxd.

Sue – so exciting that you have started stims!!! Hopefully the change to your doses will do the trick for you this time. Wow that was a lot of follies last time.

Star how are you doing – what is the latest info from your scans?

BabyChristie – how are you doing – what is the latest info from your scan today? You must be so close to EC now?

Jo-Jo – What are your next steps now? sorry to hear about the cyst.


As for me - just another day of relaxing and recovering - my big trip today will be to the grocery store - dh doesn't cook - so he has been buying us dinner the past few days lol. Time for me to get back to the kitchen lol.

Thinking about all of you ~ and counting on your for the success of this thread!!!

 

[sue1411]

No news to report today. Just wanted to say Hi and hope everyone is doing well x

 

[Springflower]

Hey Ladies

Deeni - Any sign of that naughty AF yet? Hope she appears soon. How are you doing with the DR?

Baby C - How did you get on with your scan, will EC be this weekend?

Sue - How exciting you've started stimms, I hope your doses this time brings lots of follies!!

Angel - Not long til Monday lovey, hopefully then you'll have an idea of EC.

Leilani - Loved your explanation, it was soo helpful! I see you are starting again in September, thats not long now!!!

Blue - How are feeling? Saw you started the Sept thread. If this attempt doesnt work out, I'll be joining you.

Hopesforababy - Cool news about your job, stresses about work just isn't worth it!

Sammy - Keep positive! You're nearly there now.

Chesca - Hope AF shows up soon and you can get started!

I hope I haven't missed anybody, love and luck to all

Well nothing to report from me, just waiting for my 1st scan tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed I get to move to stimms next!

 

[Sammy2009]

They told me at the hospital that you will never produce more follies than you are born with so if you only ever had say 5 then thats all you will ever have no matter how high the drugs are... i will bei interested to see how many i have this time. I did have 9 last time and two small ones that did not grow enough to produce any eggs. Maybe i only have 11? Jesus its worrying.

This is not quite true Sammy - either your hospital are misinformed, or you slightly mis-understood what you were told.

You are born with all the eggs you are ever going to have, follicles are different things - they are like doors for your eggs to leave your ovaries from. At the start of each cycle (whether on IVF or not) your ovaries are ready to develop a certain number of follicles, and this usually diminishes as your ovarian reserve diminishes - so as a teenager you might have 20-30+ potential follicles at the start of each month, and as you get older it gets less, so by the time you reach your mid 30s, at the start of each cycle you may only have 10 potential follicles a month (though if you have good reserves it could still be 20+). In none medicated cycles, very early on one follicle becomes dominant and grows and matures one egg, and all the other follicles just give up the race and those eggs just get absorbed by your body. So in an IVF cycle, the maximum number of follicles you will potentially grow during that cycle can be seen via an antral follicle scan (not all clinics do this, as seeing it can't change it, however, if there are a large number of antral follicles, then this should be taken into consideration with drug doses), and this will vary from month to month, but it's a downward trend.

This also explains why repeated IVF and other medicated cycles don't bring on the menopause any earlier than if you don't have treatment. Our FS explained it like a 100m sprint, in a regular race 10 athletes line up to start, but there is only one winner, but in an IVF cycle, there is a potential 10-way tie for first place, as all the athletes have taken performing enhancing drugs!

Ladies with PCOS are pretty much the same, but don't get an early dominant follicle, so often end up with many partially matured eggs, and so have trouble getting pregnant as they don't so often produce good mature eggs.

No i heard right.... i am not saying you will KEEP all the follicles from when you were born but you certainly won't grow any additional ones, for sure.

I have read a lot of times on here of people getting 30-40 follicles and the egg quality not being as good and hence the fertility success rates are lower than those who got a lower number. Of course this is not all carved in stone and everyones situation is different. I had 9 folicles, 6 eggs and all fertilized so I can agree (in my case) with what they are telling me.

My fertility clinic are going by maybe the last 20 years of "odds" thats what they have found out... personally I am not going to argue with a Fertility doctor that has 35 years experience behind him either (since I do not have that sort of experience as I am sure not many other people do either!)

Its always the same though and there is no right or wrong, your hospital may tell you something completely different to what mine has done. Mine have researched this and found that high numbers of follicles tend to not in general produce the best quality of eggs....in comparison to those of lower numbers. So yes, in my clinic's opintion this is "quite true" and I was not misinformed and neither did i "misunderstand" and I find that quite patronising of you. I think with 35 years experience "misinforming people" is not something they would practise to be honest... they are taking their information from years of expererience and experiments - not the internet!

 

[FBbaby]

I don't want to fuel the discussion on the matter of follicules, but just wanted to share what my consultant told me. At our last visit, he suggested he did a antra-follicular count on me as I'm 39 years old. I was surprised because I was 3 dpo and thought you could only do so as you were coming towards ovulation, but he said that it wasn't the case, the follicules you have are there all through your cycle. Sometimes you can't see them as well in the LP than FP, but the number doesn't grow in the FP. What the drugs will do is stimulate them all around the same rate, rather than nature just stimulating one above all the others. He said that the best you could really expect is one egg per follicule, but sometimes you get more than the number of follicules they said you had at the scan because the AFC is an estimation of what you manage to see on the scan, so sometimes you get a good surprise. He certainly said that your number doesn't change from month to month. I had 5 to 6 follicules on each ovary, and he said it wasn't great but not dramatic.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just what he told me.

 

[Sammy2009]

I don't want to fuel the discussion on the matter of follicules, but just wanted to share what my consultant told me. At our last visit, he suggested he did a antra-follicular count on me as I'm 39 years old. I was surprised because I was 3 dpo and thought you could only do so as you were coming towards ovulation, but he said that it wasn't the case, the follicules you have are there all through your cycle. Sometimes you can't see them as well in the LP than FP, but the number doesn't grow in the FP. What the drugs will do is stimulate them all around the same rate, rather than nature just stimulating one above all the others. He said that the best you could really expect is one egg per follicule, but sometimes you get more than the number of follicules they said you had at the scan because the AFC is an estimation of what you manage to see on the scan, so sometimes you get a good surprise. He certainly said that your number doesn't change from month to month. I had 5 to 6 follicules on each ovary, and he said it wasn't great but not dramatic.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just what he told me.

Hey,

Thats what mine told me... the meds only stimulate what is already there and make them grow. You have a maximum from birth and you will only ever have that many. It does not mean though that all of them will stimulate with the meds and grow I had 9 follies (well 11 but two were really small and would not have contained eggs) the first time round and got 6 eggs. Its true what you say that not every follie may contain an egg and in general it will only contain one egg (maybe two on the odd occasion)

When i went to a clinic in Spain he said that I had about 4-5 on the left ovary and 10-11 on the right (which was the strongest ovary) so i do feel there are more to come and that maybe the meds the first time round didnt bring out as much as they could have done. I think I may have a max of about 15? Not definite. Last time i stimmed bad and only got two but this time meds have been increased and tomorrow is my foillie scan so we will see what the outcome is i guess!

 

[BabyChristie]

Sorry if I bring the mood down in here, but things today didn't go well I've rambled the full story in my journal but the short version is that we only have 3 follicles that are likely to be of the right size by the time of EC, which means we have a chance of between 0-3 eggs and therefore our chances of getting a good embie to go to ET are quite slim. We have various options, including abandoning but with my low AMH and follicle count it is unlikely that I will respond any better next time as I'm on the optimum dose already.

Next scan is on Saturday and we have to decide what we are going to do. Trying to come to terms with the news but its pretty hard.

 

[Blue12]

The reason that some people have so many follicles is because that is what their body naturally has - not just that the doctor stimulated them. Each month my body has around 32 follicles all on its own.

During 2 of my natural cycles being monitored (before ivf), I had 32 follicles (no meds) that is just what my body has each month - except that only 1 will grow to size each month.

During my ivf cycle they tried to make more than 1 grow to size, and actually grew 20, but only 12 were mature, which is not an unreasonable number for the doc to grow to the right size.

I think we are all saying the same thing lol.

You are born with a certain amount, that is the max that can be stimulated. lol

 

[Blue12]

OMG Babychristie - hun I am devastated for you right now. Millions of let me go check out your journal. What is your gut instincts telling you? Is dh with you now? oh hun I am so sorry. This is so unfair.

 

[ANGEL223]

Baby Christie, i understand how you feel hun - my heart breaks for you! I know i have become obsessed this time by the number of follies but last time i only had 3 eggs - all good quality and 2 did fertilise so you still have a chance - it only takes one! Try and stay positive - easier said than done but the bad things make the good things all the sweeter!

 

[Sammy2009]

The reason that some people have so many follicles is because that is what their body naturally has - not just that the doctor stimulated them. Each month my body has around 32 follicles all on its own.

During 2 of my natural cycles being monitored (before ivf), I had 32 follicles (no meds) that is just what my body has each month - except that only 1 will grow to size each month.

During my ivf cycle they tried to make more than 1 grow to size, and actually grew 20, but only 12 were mature, which is not an unreasonable number for the doc to grow to the right size.

I think we are all saying the same thing lol.

You are born with a certain amount, that is the max that can be stimulated. lol

Hey Blue!!

Yup.... lol.

I had 15 naturally one month..... just a scan to see what was happening, then 11 (9 good ones stimulated through IVF) and then last time I only had bloody two!!!!

Agreed... the meds just stim them to grow to the maximum, nice and juicy! I know i must have 15 there somewhere i just wish they would rear their ugly heads and GROW somewhat!!! I think some are hiding.... i think MOST were hiding the last month we tried!

Babychristie - hun i'm really sorry for the follies. I just dont know what to say apart from i know how you feel... that was me last time we did IVF two months ago.

 

[ANGEL223]

Sorry guys,i feel responsible for starting the debate about follies! I appreciate all the points of view but im more confused than ever now - anyways, we have what we have and i just have to hope each of mine has a nice mature egg!

 

[Chesca]

Evening ladies!!

BabyChristie - I know it's hard but try and stay positive, like Angel says it only takes 1! I'll be thinking of you on saturday hun!

Blue - I guess you could say i'm in limbo at the moment. My drugs are coming at the weekend so we can start as soon as AF arrives. Saying that if AF arrives late we won't be able to start until September! One of my best friends is getting married on 28th August and if AF is late all my scans and possibly ET will fall around the wedding! There's just no way I can miss her getting married so i've accepted that it might not be Sept till we get started. DP and I have been through so much this year that I kinda figure, what's another month?! I'm just keeping myself busy with work, friends and of course my cyber buddys!! So what's the next step for you?

xxx

 

[Sammy2009]

Sorry guys,i feel responsible for starting the debate about follies! I appreciate all the points of view but im more confused than ever now - anyways, we have what we have and i just have to hope each of mine has a nice mature egg!

Don't be silly... You are not responsible for anything! Good luck for lots of eggs Hun that's all that matters xxx