Jon Venables - Identity Exposed - UPDATE PAGE 32 (In the papers again today)

[Avalanche]

Shall we just get the pitchforks and torches now then?

This thread has shown exactly what is wrong with this country. All the calls to kill him, eye for an eye, let him rot etc. Yes, he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

However, why does that mean people can resort to mob rule? Aren't we better than that?

Venables is a product of society. Maybe we are so disgusted by what he did, because part of it is that our society created him.

No child is born evil, he committed this murder as a child but why? Has anyone looked into his past? His family were known to police for alleged cases of abuse against him and his siblings. Thompson was similar, and his mother left him alone for long periods so she could go off and get drunk. Both came from broken homes, raised by single mothers, both were abused, both were abandoned, etc

Neither boy had love, security and proper parenting.

Both boys showed signs of violence, at 10 they were both regularly skipping school, getting into fistfights with other children, using airguns to harm animals, etc

The NSPCC said about them: "The Thompson report is a series of violent incidents," he reported, "none of them in itself enough to justify the kids being taken into care but the sum of them appalling. The boys, it's said, grew up 'afraid of each other'. They bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other."

So when they were being abused, where was the help? Where were social services? When they were bunking off school, where was the concerned parents or teachers? When they were seen to be causing trouble, where were the concerned neighbours?

These two boys are monsters, but they were created. Created by their parents, their relatives, the social care system, the police, their schools, their neighbours, their community and by our society.

Rather than pointing fingers at individuals we should make sure that no children like them ever slip through the net again, and that we are always taking care of our children and the children of our wider society as they cannot care for themselves.

 

[suzib76]

Shall we just get the pitchforks and torches now then?

This thread has shown exactly what is wrong with this country. All the calls to kill him, eye for an eye, let him rot etc. Yes, he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

However, why does that mean people can resort to mob rule? Aren't we better than that?

Venables is a product of society. Maybe we are so disgusted by what he did, because part of it is that our society created him.

No child is born evil, he committed this murder as a child but why? Has anyone looked into his past? His family were known to police for alleged cases of abuse against him and his siblings. Thompson was similar, and his mother left him alone for long periods so she could go off and get drunk. Both came from broken homes, raised by single mothers, both were abused, both were abandoned, etc

Neither boy had love, security and proper parenting. Both boys showed signs of violence, at 10 they were both regularly skipping school, getting into fistfights with other children, using airguns to harm animals, etc

The NSPCC said about them: "The Thompson report is a series of violent incidents," he reported, "none of them in itself enough to justify the kids being taken into care but the sum of them appalling. The boys, it's said, grew up 'afraid of each other'. They bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other."

So when they were being abused, where was the help? Where were social services? When they were bunking off school, where was the concerned parents or teachers? When they were seen to be causing trouble, where were the concerned neighbours?

These two boys are monsters, but they were created. Created by their parents, their relatives, the social care system, the police, their schools, their neighbours, their community and by our society.

Rather than pointing fingers at individuals we should make sure that no children like them ever slip through the net again, and that we are always taking care of our children and the children of our wider society as they cannot care for themselves.

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

 

[Avalanche]

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

At what point in my post did I say it made it ok?

And I absolutely do think it offers, in part, some sort of explanation as to why the original crime occurred. All these boys had known growing up was violence and abuse and adults in their lives let them do it. Children are not born evil, they are not inherently evil. These two children committed a crime against another child because they had been taught by their families and their community that violence was not only allowed, but normal.

 

[LoraLoo]

Shall we just get the pitchforks and torches now then?

This thread has shown exactly what is wrong with this country. All the calls to kill him, eye for an eye, let him rot etc. Yes, he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

However, why does that mean people can resort to mob rule? Aren't we better than that?

Venables is a product of society. Maybe we are so disgusted by what he did, because part of it is that our society created him.

No child is born evil, he committed this murder as a child but why? Has anyone looked into his past? His family were known to police for alleged cases of abuse against him and his siblings. Thompson was similar, and his mother left him alone for long periods so she could go off and get drunk. Both came from broken homes, raised by single mothers, both were abused, both were abandoned, etc

Neither boy had love, security and proper parenting. Both boys showed signs of violence, at 10 they were both regularly skipping school, getting into fistfights with other children, using airguns to harm animals, etc

The NSPCC said about them: "The Thompson report is a series of violent incidents," he reported, "none of them in itself enough to justify the kids being taken into care but the sum of them appalling. The boys, it's said, grew up 'afraid of each other'. They bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other."

So when they were being abused, where was the help? Where were social services? When they were bunking off school, where was the concerned parents or teachers? When they were seen to be causing trouble, where were the concerned neighbours?

These two boys are monsters, but they were created. Created by their parents, their relatives, the social care system, the police, their schools, their neighbours, their community and by our society.

Rather than pointing fingers at individuals we should make sure that no children like them ever slip through the net again, and that we are always taking care of our children and the children of our wider society as they cannot care for themselves.

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

I agree, I dont see the point of that post to be honest, the crime wasnt prevented, it happened, and now they alone must deal with the consequences, not to school, the social workers etc.

 

[special_kala]

Shall we just get the pitchforks and torches now then?

This thread has shown exactly what is wrong with this country. All the calls to kill him, eye for an eye, let him rot etc. Yes, he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

However, why does that mean people can resort to mob rule? Aren't we better than that?

Venables is a product of society. Maybe we are so disgusted by what he did, because part of it is that our society created him.

No child is born evil, he committed this murder as a child but why? Has anyone looked into his past? His family were known to police for alleged cases of abuse against him and his siblings. Thompson was similar, and his mother left him alone for long periods so she could go off and get drunk. Both came from broken homes, raised by single mothers, both were abused, both were abandoned, etc

Neither boy had love, security and proper parenting. Both boys showed signs of violence, at 10 they were both regularly skipping school, getting into fistfights with other children, using airguns to harm animals, etc

The NSPCC said about them: "The Thompson report is a series of violent incidents," he reported, "none of them in itself enough to justify the kids being taken into care but the sum of them appalling. The boys, it's said, grew up 'afraid of each other'. They bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other."

So when they were being abused, where was the help? Where were social services? When they were bunking off school, where was the concerned parents or teachers? When they were seen to be causing trouble, where were the concerned neighbours?

These two boys are monsters, but they were created. Created by their parents, their relatives, the social care system, the police, their schools, their neighbours, their community and by our society.

Rather than pointing fingers at individuals we should make sure that no children like them ever slip through the net again, and that we are always taking care of our children and the children of our wider society as they cannot care for themselves.

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

I agree, I dont see the point of that post to be honest, the crime wasnt prevented, it happened, and now they alone must deal with the consequences, not to school, the social workers etc.

 

[Avalanche]

I agree, I dont see the point of that post to be honest, the crime wasnt prevented, it happened, and now they alone must deal with the consequences, not to school, the social workers etc.

So why shouldn't the social workers, the school, the parents, the community, the police, etc deal with the consequences? They ignored all signs of abuse from two children who went onto murder another child after showing years of violent behaviour and having that behaviour unchecked.

Why are they not dealing with the consequences of their actions, for allowing this to happen in the first place?

The crime is over and done with, yes. So now how are those people and organisations who let the boys slip through the net in the first place, better equipped to spot similar cases in future to prevent anything like a similar crime being committed?

Or if you don't see the point shall we just punish the people who committed the act and not look at why or how the act occurred in the first place, where everything went wrong and how it can be prevented in future?

 

[suzib76]

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

At what point in my post did I say it made it ok?


And I absolutely do think it offers, in part, some sort of explanation as to why the original crime occurred. All these boys had known growing up was violence and abuse and adults in their lives let them do it. Children are not born evil, they are not inherently evil. These two children committed a crime against another child because they had been taught by their families and their community that violence was not only allowed, but normal.

you didnt, however your post was worded in such a way that insinuated that is what you meant. further backed up by this ^ where you said it 'offers some sort of explkanation'

 

[LoraLoo]

I agree, I dont see the point of that post to be honest, the crime wasnt prevented, it happened, and now they alone must deal with the consequences, not to school, the social workers etc.

So why shouldn't the social workers, the school, the parents, the community, the police, etc deal with the consequences? They ignored all signs of abuse from two children who went onto murder another child after showing years of violent behaviour and having that behaviour unchecked.

Why are they not dealing with the consequences of their actions, for allowing this to happen in the first place?

The crime is over and done with, yes. So now how are those people and organisations who let the boys slip through the net in the first place, better equipped to spot similar cases in future to prevent anything like a similar crime being committed?

But where would that end? You cant punish a 'system' only individuals. I do see your points, but at the end of the day, other children have truly awful upbringings, it doesnt mean that they kidnap, torture and kill baby's. I think the fact that JV has shown no remore, and has gone on to re-offend, shows that he should be, locked away for the rest of his life. If he rots in there, then why should I care? x

 

[suzib76]

I agree, I dont see the point of that post to be honest, the crime wasnt prevented, it happened, and now they alone must deal with the consequences, not to school, the social workers etc.

So why shouldn't the social workers, the school, the parents, the community, the police, etc deal with the consequences? They ignored all signs of abuse from two children who went onto murder another child after showing years of violent behaviour and having that behaviour unchecked.

Why are they not dealing with the consequences of their actions, for allowing this to happen in the first place?

The crime is over and done with, yes. So now how are those people and organisations who let the boys slip through the net in the first place, better equipped to spot similar cases in future to prevent anything like a similar crime being committed?

Or if you don't see the point shall we just punish the people who committed the act and not look at why or how the act occurred in the first place, where everything went wrong and how it can be prevented in future?

all of this was dealt with at the time, which was way way back in 1993 and not the issue right now, which is that of the boys

 

[Tasha]

I totally agree with Avalanche. And the point of that post was to say a) we are better than the eye for an eye stuff, and b) that it WAS preventable, if only the right people had taken care of these boys, took them away from their abusive households. The thing is the boys were let down in the same way as many other children who are now dead, it so easily could of gone the other way and instead of us writing about the two boys who killed a toddler, we could very well be writing about two boys who were friends and so badly let down by the system that they were killed by their parents. So if those accusations were taken seriously and those boys not let down, then Jamie might still be here.

NO I am not saying what they did is excused by their abuse, but what I am saying is the system is not excused either. They let them down and a murder happened, that was preventable.

 

[AppleBlossom]

I saw the site before it was taken down. Warrington is near me too. As sick as this creature is, I don't think his identity should have been revealed. A lot of taxpayers money has gone into giving him a new identity (as wrong as it is) and now that's all been wasted. Although I do hope that someone recognises him when he gets out of prison and gives him a good thump before the government spend yet more money on giving him another new name and have to send him somewhere where he won't be recognised

 

[Avalanche]

you didnt, however your post was worded in such a way that insinuated that is what you meant. further backed up by this ^ where you said it offers some sort of explkanation'

My post, where at the start I said:

he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

Can you please explain how you believe where, and how I said what he did was ok? As I find that quite offensive.

 

[LoraLoo]

I totally agree with Avalanche. And the point of that post was to say a) we are better than the eye for an eye stuff, and b) that it WAS preventable, if only the right people had taken care of these boys, took them away from their abusive households. The thing is the boys were let down in the same way as many other children who are now dead, it so easily could of gone the other way and instead of us writing about the two boys who killed a toddler, we could very well be writing about two boys who were friends and so badly let down by the system that they were killed by their parents. So if those accusations were taken seriously and those boys not let down, then Jamie might still be here.

NO I am not saying what they did is excused by their abuse, but what I am saying is the system is not excused either. They let them down and a murder happened, that was preventable.

I'm not sure it was preventable. There is no way of profiling who will commit a murder, what exactly could they have done to have prevented it??

 

[suzib76]

you didnt, however your post was worded in such a way that insinuated that is what you meant. further backed up by this ^ where you said it offers some sort of explkanation'

My post, where at the start I said:

he did a terrible, disgusting thing. That isn't even debatable, it's beyond words how awful the original crime was and the fact he keeps offending.

Can you please explain how you believe where, and how I said what he did was ok? As I find that quite offensive.

exactly what i already said in pp (below), and it wasnt intended to be offensive, if thats what you take from it, thats your choice, but it wasnt ment to be

that doesnt make it ok, or offer any sort of explanation for what these boys did, nor does it make them deserving of a place in society

At what point in my post did I say it made it ok?


And I absolutely do think it offers, in part, some sort of explanation as to why the original crime occurred. All these boys had known growing up was violence and abuse and adults in their lives let them do it. Children are not born evil, they are not inherently evil. These two children committed a crime against another child because they had been taught by their families and their community that violence was not only allowed, but normal.

you didnt, however your post was worded in such a way that insinuated that is what you meant. further backed up by this ^ where you said it 'offers some sort of explkanation'

 

[special_kala]

I saw the site before it was taken down. Warrington is near me too. As sick as this creature is, I don't think his identity should have been revealed. A lot of taxpayers money has gone into giving him a new identity (as wrong as it is) and now that's all been wasted. Although I do hope that someone recognises him when he gets out of prison and gives him a good thump before the government spend yet more money on giving him another new name and have to send him somewhere where he won't be recognised

I think he was getting a new identity anyway before he was outed

 

[Avalanche]

all of this was dealt with at the time, which was way way back in 1993 and not the issue right now, which is that of the boys

So you don't think that past issues should help mold an organisation on how they conduct affairs in the future?

These boys aren't the first children to kill other children. Look at Mary Bell. She was ten years old when she killed two children. Sound familiar? Maybe if there had been an investigation into why this girl killed two children as a child, and findings were published to help train future social workers and teach society as a whole then the Bulger murder might never have happened.

No matter how old the crime, organsations as important as the police and social care should learn from.

 

[Tasha]

But where would that end? You cant punish a 'system' only individuals. I do see your points, but at the end of the day, other children have truly awful upbringings, it doesnt mean that they kidnap, torture and kill baby's. I think the fact that JV has shown no remore, and has gone on to re-offend, shows that he should be, locked away for the rest of his life. If he rots in there, then why should I care? x

I get what you are saying, but when other children were let down in this fashion (for example Victoria Climbie, Baby Peter) and they went the other way, and the child died, then the system was looked at, changes were (supposedly) made, and individuals were punished.

If they dont learn from the mistakes they made with the boys, then who's to say in 20 years time our children wont be on here writing in a similar debate about a very similar situation?

 

[Avalanche]

I'm not sure it was preventable. There is no way of profiling who will commit a murder, what exactly could they have done to have prevented it??

Are you saying that the two boys were born evil? Because if they weren't, at some point in the chain the murder was preventable. They were children, not adults.

 

[Avalanche]

exactly what i already said in pp (below), and it wasnt intended to be offensive, if thats what you take from it, thats your choice, but it wasnt ment to be

Can I just clarify that you think, because I said that the murder can be explained, in part, by the boys being let down by society that means I think the murder was ok?

 

[LoraLoo]

I'm not sure it was preventable. There is no way of profiling who will commit a murder, what exactly could they have done to have prevented it??

Are you saying that the two boys were born evil? Because if they weren't, at some point in the chain the murder was preventable. They were children, not adults.

They were children that were old enough to know right from wrong, I was 10 when they killed Jamie, and I was heartbroken. I dont know if people are born evil or not, to be honest, i dont think its something any of us will ever know. Once again, how could it have been prevented? They were educated, councilled, etc etc, in 'prison'- did that prevent him re-offending? Nope, sure didnt. Would he murder again, given the chance? I think so.