Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[Noelle610]

So I'm hoping all of you ladies can help me out. I'm trying to decide what the next step is to getting my LO's sleep on track...

She's 7mo old and sleeps in a cosleeper next to our bed. She's breastfed with one solids meal a day, usually in the evening. Nursing is last thing we do before I put her down, but she is not completely asleep (e.g. she usually fusses a bit once I lay her down). We have bedtime routine of change into pjs, book, nurse and to sleep. I put her down around 7:15pm. I usually don't leave the room for about 5 minutes after she has quieted down bc our bedroom door is really loud and wakes her up if I've just put her down. She usually sleeps until midnight or 1am with occassional wakeups around 10ish, that can typically be soothed with shush and pat in 5-10minutes. After 1am sometimes she's usually up every 45minutes to an hour, but sometimes she'll sleep for longer. But since she's learned to stand up in the cosleeper, she usually stands when she wakes up which seems to extend the amount of time she is awake each time. So I lay her back down and shush and pat. I do one feeding between 1-2am and then another one later, usually between 4-5am. She usually starts waking up more around 5:30 or so, so I bring her into bed with us and she usually sleeps until 7 when I have to get up.

Naps are not great. Usually 3x30 minutes, sometimes a longer one thrown in there.

I'm not ready for CC yet, but I would appreciate any thoughts on next steps to help her out. Thanks for your help.

I think a few things would help:

Move nursing to the beginning or even the middle of your bedtime routine. If she's going down more awake, her self soothing skills will improve.

I would move her into her own space. I think you only have one bedroom, is that correct? Even if there's some divide between you (she's closer to the door and maybe there's a screen in between) I think she'll be less likely to need to nurse back to sleep every sleep cycle.

I'd try increasing her solid intake. I don't necessarily know that it will help her sleep longer at night, but I think it would make you more confident that she's not hungry and that you can space out night feedings a bit. I'd introduce some protein - avocado, yogurt, meats, cheeses are all good sources.

 

[Noelle610]

Stephanie and Seaweed give great advice. Respect the max awake time and try to avoid part-time cosleeping. It's all or nothing or it's confusing

 

[mellyboo]

I never wanted a cat my room mate* back in the old days* had one once and it would meow all night at my bedroom door

 

[Radkat]

Noelle, Seaweed and Stephie - Thanks for the feedback.

Seaweed - Thanks for the suggestions on dealing with bedtime. I'll try probably try the gradual withdrawl.

Stephie - I will talk to OH about naps. I thought I heard that you should try to stretch the time out in between naps to get longer naps? Maybe for a different baby, huh? I'll try the 2 hour, 2.25, 2.5 and 2.75 hour time in between naps.

Noelle - I will try to switch up our bedtime routine and put feeding towards the beginning or middle. I actually don't feed to sleep each time she wakes up. I only do two night feedings usually around 1-2 and bt 4-5, but last night it was 12:30 and 3:30 because she would not settle any other way. Thanks for the advice on solids. I was wondering if that might help. Yes, we don't really have a way to give her her own space right now. I'll think about how to do that.

Last night was really rough. She had extended wake ups (e.g. up from 11:45 until 1 and 3-4), which is unusual for her. She has multiple other wakeups sprinkled in there as well and she didn't go right to sleep after being fed which she usually does after maybe a few minutes of fuss. After the 3:30 feeding she was up for another 45+ minutes. She would settle, then be up in 5 minutes standing up and crying. Repeat for another 45 minutes.

 

[seaweed eater]

Melly, so exciting! Every day when I check this thread I keep hoping your good streak will continue

Polaris, glad you got some rest

NotNic, I'm glad you got to sleep in, but I know what you mean about the funny feeling that the morning is all gone when you're used to waking up really early

Radkat, sorry you had such a rough night, that sounds really hard I hope something you try ends up helping. I think Noelle's suggestion to try giving her her own space somehow is a good one. Putting Munchkin in his own room at 4.5 months helped his sleep a LOT. I know you don't have that luxury but I agree that it would be worth trying to have her sleep apart from you in some way, just to see if it happens to help.

AFM, 5 wakings last night first time since before sleep training that he's had more than 2. It's not really as bad as it sounds, though, because he did have a 5.5 hour stretch, and he slept 7:30-6:30 all in all.

I'm kind of trying the NCSS gentle removal method...you all probably think I should just calm down, and I see your point but it just feels like, why not...anything that doesn't involve crying sounds really easy right now. And I'm not happy about having to feed so often during the night. I don't want him to become reliant on nighttime feedings so that later we have a food timing problem in addition to a sleep association problem. That's the main reason I wanted to sleep train in the first place. So I'd rather feel like I'm at least working on it. I haven't heard great things about that method so I don't really think it will work, but whatever -- why not try.

 

[stephie_corin]

Good luck with the new method SE! It's good to feel like you are doing something, even baby steps. Good luck to everyone else for a good night too I'm in bed with my sleeping little man in his cot next to me (and my big sleeping man on the other side). Why is it I get the least sleep out of anyone in the family but am always the last to fall asleep! Ha!

Radcat I have the link to a wake time chart and I will try post it for you, it's really useful.

 

[stephie_corin]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en

Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X

 

[Noelle610]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en

Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X

I love, love, love this chart! I know it makes some people anxious, but it's been the key to sleep magic for me.

The first wake time is usually the shortest. The middle one(s) can be stretched a bit - kids are least sensitive to that one. The time between last nap and bedtime is important. If it's too long, it can cause overtired.

 

[bananaz]

I put LO down a half hour earlier last night and she woke up a half hour later this morning! So it would appear that bedtime was too late.

I might try a 6:30pm bedtime tonight and see if I can finally push her to that 6am wakeup, but it couldn't really be that easy could it?? I actually don't like having bedtime so early, it makes the evenings feel really rushed. Oh well.

 

[bananaz]

Bananaz, I'm sorry but I had to smile at the image of your girl dancing and yelling with her stuffed animals. How did the rest of that nap go?

I smiled too, it was pretty cute. She finally did pass out and slept for almost an hour and a half, so not bad at all.

Good luck with the gentle removal method, let us know how it goes!

 

[Noelle610]

I put LO down a half hour earlier last night and she woke up a half hour later this morning! So it would appear that bedtime was too late.

I might try a 6:30pm bedtime tonight and see if I can finally push her to that 6am wakeup, but it couldn't really be that easy could it?? I actually don't like having bedtime so early, it makes the evenings feel really rushed. Oh well.

That's great! Honestly, sometimes the answer is simple. I wouldn't rush it. Keep the 6:30pm bedtime for a week and if it keeps working, then push it earlier.

She probably won't need this bedtime forever. You can gradually increase her wake times using the recommendations in the chart Stephanie linked to. Between now and 18 months, a lot will change.

 

[Radkat]

I'm a fan of charts, so this is great. Thanks so much for posting, Stephie. It's great to know that this was helpful for both of you. I have a feeling this will get posted on our fridge.

OH is pretty baby led (he watches her during the day), but I think he would be willing to try anything after last night. He told me to be careful driving to work today bc he thought I looked so tired!

 

[polaris]

Seaweed, what way does the gentle removal method work? Is it just trying to take them off before they fall asleep? Clara doesn't usually feed to sleep but she does feed until her eyes are starting to close and her body relaxes. If I put her in the cot when she is still twitchy and jerking her legs and arms then she will cry and won't tend to go to sleep easily, whereas if her eyes are closing and her legs and arms are relaxed she might cry/fuss for a few minutes in the cot but will generally go off to sleep. I would love her to be less dependent on boob to get to that relaxed state but so far I haven't been able to manage it. I have tried moving nursing earlier in the bedtime routine but it's like she is wired going into the cot and she doesn't know how to unwind without nursing down. She always has to have a feed before naps too. With DS I did a loose EASY routine and it worked really well but all my attempts to get Clara onto an EASY routine have failed miserably. Does anyone know any reasonably gentle methods that might help with this?

 

[polaris]

Bananaz, yay, that is brilliant news!

Even if you don't get to the magic 6 a.m., at least she's getting more sleep which has to be a good thing. But fingers crossed she will start sleeping until 6 - it's so much worse when you see a 5 on the clock in the mornings isn't it. I agree that very early bedtimes suck and make the evening like a military operation. But as Noelle says it's not forever.

 

[Tess.ie]

Ahhhh this thread moves so quick, i keep losing track of everyone! Especially when I'm checking it on my phone. Will try to catch up, but it does sound like maybe theres a few people having improvements which is great and gives me hope

As for us, I think we need to work on an earlier bedtime because Chloe keeps waking up 20mins-1hour after going to sleep. Then again an hour after that. Then sleeps till we go to bed when she wakes and has a feed. (Also need to get her into her own room, I have her cot now and getting the mattress tomorrow. Should I just put her in it for daytime naps for a while, or just go straight into her own room day and night sleeps?)
Last night she also woke at 12.30 and 3.30 then slept till 7.30. It was the first morning in months that I woke before Chloe! Hope she does it again tonight!

I'm not sure, but there is a possibility that Chloe CIO tonight. She went into bed earlier than usual (6.45) and fell asleep so fast but woke after about 25 mins. I settled her, and went to do make my tea and do the dishes. The monitor is in the sitting room, but with the doors open I can normally hear if Chloe cries. Anyway, never heard anything but when I went through to the sitting after my tea room she was making little crying noises. She stopped so I didnt go up to her just then Im not sure if she woke up again and was talking to her self then self settled, or if she was crying and I just didnt hear and she CIO. When I went up just now to check her she had rolled onto her tummy and was sleeping but she doesnt normally sleep on her tummy. I feel really bad, maybe she cried quieter cos she was on her tummy.

 

[polaris]

Tess, I wouldn't feel bad. I think if she was really upset then you would have heard her. The volume tends to escalate if they are getting upset. She may well have had a bit of a moan/whimper before going back to sleep but I don't think that counts as CIO.

 

[Tess.ie]

Thanks Polaris, thats what I hoped.

 

[seaweed eater]

Tess, I agree with Polaris, I wouldn't feel bad. You may be right about it having to do with her being on her tummy. Mine hates being on his tummy while awake, so if he wakes up there he usually complains even if everything is fine. Don't worry about it

For the transition to the new bed, I'd start with naps and see how that goes. Some babies seem to be fine right away but for us it took a while to get him used to it. Also, is there a way you could separate the bed transition and the room transition and do them one at a time (cot in your room, or whatever she's sleeping in now but in her new room)? For us it was helpful to do one at a time because LO reacted badly to changing beds but well to changing rooms, and I never would have known that it was so helpful for him to be in his own room if we'd tried both at once.

Polaris, yes, the idea with gentle removal is to take them off before they fall asleep. You are supposed to take them off when they are relaxed and sucking slowly, and press on their chin if they start rooting (this makes my LO mad so I skip it). If they continue rooting, put them back on, count to ten, and remove again. Repeat until they fall asleep without being latched on. Munchkin usually wakes up in transfer (I'm deliberately not very careful to keep him asleep) and resettles in his crib, but beforehand he does like to suck until he's asleep. So I guess I see this as a step toward moving nursing earlier in the routine, as you said, which there's no way we could do right now without a lot of crying. I guess maybe you could do something similar to take Clara off when you feel pretty certain that she's sucking for comfort rather than really eating? I don't know if that would work. But if it did, you could then try waiting a little longer before putting her down and try to get some space between nursing and sleep time that way. Even as I'm typing this, I'm doubting that it would ever work for Munchkin, but it might be worth a try?

 

[polaris]

Tess, I agree with Polaris, I wouldn't feel bad. You may be right about it having to do with her being on her tummy. Mine hates being on his tummy while awake, so if he wakes up there he usually complains even if everything is fine. Don't worry about it

For the transition to the new bed, I'd start with naps and see how that goes. Some babies seem to be fine right away but for us it took a while to get him used to it. Also, is there a way you could separate the bed transition and the room transition and do them one at a time (cot in your room, or whatever she's sleeping in now but in her new room)? For us it was helpful to do one at a time because LO reacted badly to changing beds but well to changing rooms, and I never would have known that it was so helpful for him to be in his own room if we'd tried both at once.

Polaris, yes, the idea with gentle removal is to take them off before they fall asleep. You are supposed to take them off when they are relaxed and sucking slowly, and press on their chin if they start rooting (this makes my LO mad so I skip it). If they continue rooting, put them back on, count to ten, and remove again. Repeat until they fall asleep without being latched on. Munchkin usually wakes up in transfer (I'm deliberately not very careful to keep him asleep) and resettles in his crib, but beforehand he does like to suck until he's asleep. So I guess I see this as a step toward moving nursing earlier in the routine, as you said, which there's no way we could do right now without a lot of crying. I guess maybe you could do something similar to take Clara off when you feel pretty certain that she's sucking for comfort rather than really eating? I don't know if that would work. But if it did, you could then try waiting a little longer before putting her down and try to get some space between nursing and sleep time that way. Even as I'm typing this, I'm doubting that it would ever work for Munchkin, but it might be worth a try?

Hmmm Clara is funny because she is definitely awake going down and actually I don't always put her straight into the cot after nursing, I usually wind her for a bit over my shoulder and sing her a lullaby, so there is a bit of a gap there. But nevertheless if I try to put her down without nursing it just doesn't work. Or not without a lot of crying anyway. But actually writing this out is making me feel more positive about it because actually she doesn't feed to sleep so that must hopefully make it easier for her to break the association down the line when she's ready? In that it sounds like the gentle removal technique is really aiming to get to where we are at as a stepping stone to going to sleep independent of boob - so at least we are already half way there?

 

[NotNic]

Just a thought Polaris, but could you try skipping the feed bit out of the final part of the routine. So maybe feed her downstairs and then take her to where you usually would nurse her, but instead of nursing go straight to the lullabye and cuddle bit. Perhaps removing the feed location association, might help lessen her need to nurse directly before bed.

I definitely think we need a cat sleep training thread. I regularly co-sleep with my cats and I'd like to wean them of it! Seriously though, they definitely do seem to work together. When Finlay is awake they go into his room and he's so excited he squeaks louder. 9