Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[Noelle610]

Polaris, another vote for waking at 7! Most of the reading I've done mentions 6am-7am as the natural biological wake time for most babies. I suspect you're seeing inconsistency simply because nights are inconsistent. A consistent wake-up time may really help get her on an age appropriate schedule. Charlie was inconsistent before you started sleeping better. She could wake any time between 5am and 8am. Made any planning for the day impossible.

MrsSunshine, Twister had success with CC. Hopefully she can pop in with some advice!

 

[Twister]

As Noelle mentioned, we used CC and noticed improvements straight away. The very first night she went from waking every 2 hours to waking just twice. Sometimes she only wakes once. The hard part is being consistent with it.

 

[mrssunshine78]

I imagine the consistency is hard when you're absolutely exhausted, think we'll have to do some reading up on it. Thanks

 

[polaris]

Thanks all. I think I will definitely start waking her at 7 as of tomorrow morning. I am generally up with my 3 year old at that time anyway so it makes sense. Also I really need her in a reasonably consistent schedule because I also have to make plans with 3 year old - it's not fair on him to be stuck at home all the time because Clara might be napping at that time!

To answer the questions - her bedtime is usually 7 p.m. although it is sometimes 7.30 before she is asleep. Her naps are good, two good naps per day usually about 1.25 hours each, sometimes a bit longer. Her daytime routine is actually very good, it's just the nights that are totally inconsistent!

 

[stephie_corin]

Good luck Polaris!

Sunshine, I hope you have a good night.

Everything for us has gone haywire. It's all to do with feeds. I've mentioned before that my little man will only feed when its nap time or bed time. By laying him on the ground and leaning over him I can get him to take a small feed when he is hungry but he has gone from 4 big feeds to three big feeds and two very small feeds. The last two nights he has nursed to sleep at 6, slept ten minutes in my arms and then been wide-awake another hour looking for another feed.

So, should I just accept he will only take a big feed when sleepy and work with this, or work to break the feed to sleep association and stick to two naps?

Two naps works perfectly except for the feeding issue. I can get him to sleep in other ways, but I can't get him to take a big feed in other ways.

If I just embrace his preference for nursing at sleep I thought I could do something along the lines of the following:

6 wake
830 feed and sleep (45-60 mins)
12.30 feed and sleep (45-60 mins)
430/5 feed and short cat nap 15 mins
7 bed time and feed

I can persevere between the big feeds with lying down and feeding or giving sips of expressed milk from a sippy cup. It looks like long times between feeds but today he went almost 6 hours between big feeds

I'll offer tastes of solids through the day too (we are BLW).

I'm up to 10.5+ hours again awake time with the cat nap but I can't see what else to do. He seems happy with a three hour wake time now.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just not sure if the plan above is a good one or if I'd be better off just working on breaking his nurse/sleep association.

 

[Sunnie1984]

Right, I finally have 10 minutes to myself, so I'll try to catch up with the last few pages!

Stephie - the cosleeping arrangement looks perfect to me, hope it helps you.

On the feeding to sleep thing - I think you are still probably best sticking to two naps (as he's probably going to fight more than two soon anyway) and then try to feed him inbetween when he's hungry.

Will he refuse feeds even if he is starving? Seren went through a bit of a milk strike at that age (formula not breast though) so C may be doing the same thing? If he won't take the milk, but is ok otherwise (and not suddenly waking for loads of night feeds) I wouldn't worry too much, he'll eat when he's hungry.


I'm not sure the guests are affecting her too much - it started the night we got home from holiday - so she should have slept better in her own bed, and before the guests arrived (that set anyway). She's usually more interested in bed than anything else, so I hope not!

Noelle - Thanks for replying. We put her down about 7:15pm tonight - after napping until 3:40pm and she went down without a fuss. She woke twice since, but our aircon is being a bit tempramental so I think she was too hot.

Separation anxiety is during the day, not so much at night. It's particularly strong to OH - who works away a lot. He's been off this week so dreading tomorrow when he goes to work!

Bedtime routine is just bath, bottle and bed. She won't tolerate stories, they wind her up. She's usually fine with it, and goes straight off. Hopefully now that the bedtime is later she'll be back to the normal.

Shadowy - That's so cute, although I guess when you are trying to get her to sleep, animated chats with stuffed animals aren't helpful How did the later bedtime work for you?

Polaris - we just went through a couple of week of random wake up times, although they seem to have settled down again in the last couple of days (possibly to do with the later bedtime). i think if Clara doesn't have a strong body clock, choose a wake time that works for you, and stick with it. Eventually her own body clock will wake her at that time.

Seaweed - thanks! I'm not sure her separation anxiety is linked with bedtime, she doesn't seem to care It's more that when she's up, she wants to be held (as long as it suits her).

I hope a bit of a later bedtime works for Munchkin too, it looks like most babies make the shift then, so it could well be why he's fighting bedtime.

I do a lot of loud renditions of "Old McDonald" and "Row Row Row your Boat" when in the car. Coupled with turning the radio up loud and then turning it on and off whenever she closes her eyes. I can usually do a 20 minute car ride without her falling asleep. I'm exhausted at the end of it, but so worth it when she naps in her cot and I get some time to myself!

Gaia - Sounds like a good day. Hope it keeps up and the teeth pop up soon. I think Seren is going to be gummy forever, still no signs of teeth and she's 9 months!

Sunshine - i hope you find a method that works for you and your LO, so you can get some decent rest!


We are doing ok here. i can't complain really as generally we have good nights (although we are still getting those random crying out in the middle of the night for no reason wake ups), but I can't cope with the screaming at bedtime.

Seren is now using a baby walker (the ones you stand up and hold onto, not the one you sit in) and is now wandering around the living room. Slightly scared as i think walking may now not be too far away, and it's way to early for that! I want to keep her as a baby a lot longer!

x

 

[polaris]

Stephie, I would stick with two naps to be honest if it's working for him in relation to sleep. I think the feeding issue will resolve, if it's even an issue. Babies are remarkably good at regulating their own intake and getting what they need. I know it's very early to drop to three feeds but he's still feeding overnight too, right? Clara is actually very similar in that she won't really feed properly except before sleep. I do offer during the day when I know she's hungry but she'll only ever have a small bit. So she is only having three proper feeds per day (+ night feeds) and this has been the case for some time. She's always been a very efficient feeder though and I know she does take a good amount when she does have a proper feed. I reckon that unless they are actually losing weight and failing to thrive, that they are getting what they need. The co-sleeping arrangement looks ideal, by the way!

Sunnie, I have been meaning to get the baby walker out of the attic for Clara! I know exactly what you mean about not being ready for them to walk! Exciting though, all the same.

Seaweed - I've been racking my brains what you can do about the car nap! Do you know that was a small factor in my decision to get Thomas minded at home when I went back to work? I knew that I would never be able to keep him awake in the car on the way home from daycare and I just knew that it would totally mess up his whole routine! Would there be any way of avoiding the car nap for three or four days in a row, just as a test to see whether it improved the bedtime issue? I don't know how realistic that is. And anyway even if that is the issue, I don't know what you can do about it. But I guess if it is the car nap causing the bedtime issues, then sleep training might not be likely to work well to solve the problem?

OT for this thread, but I am really still struggling with dropping the final nap with DS. I am currently trying to give him a nap every two or three days but he still seems to be getting really overtired. He's cranky and over-emotional and falls asleep as soon as he gets in the car which hasn't happened in a very long time. By his behaviour I would say that he still needs the nap, but if he has the nap he won't sleep at bedtime. I'm feeling a bit worn out with it to be honest because he just turns into a different child when he's over-tired and becomes very difficult to live with to be honest. I'm also chronically tired myself so I guess we rub off each other! However this evening I've managed to get them both in bed and asleep by 7.15 so I have the evening to myself (until Clara wakes up anyway!).

 

[Aimee4311]

I just shattered Josalyn's world and ruined her little baby life! Or you'd think so by the way she was screaming! Lol.

I tried something new. I laid her on her tummy on the bed and tried patting her to *try* put her to sleep that way, without holding her. It did not work! Within about 2 minutes she'd worked herself into hysterics and it took me about a half an hour of rocking, bouncing, patting, and shushing, to calm her back down! Oh, and another short nursing session. My goodness.

I won't be trying that again for a while!

That may have been a failure, BUT we didn't nurse to sleep again!

 

[stephie_corin]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I spoke to DH this morning after reading the replies and he thinks what you've all said makes sense, so we will stick to two naps and I will just trust C to take what he needs. He is having 2-3 night feeds (at least!) and he is above the 99% for weight so it seems silly to worry... It just seems SUCH a long time for him to go between feeds when he isn't taking in much solids.

I did express 5oz this morning though and will give him sips throughout the day as its getting very hot here (as Sunnie would know!)

I'm starting to see definite improvements in his sleep. He slept from 10pm-2am last night! I think anyway, I don't remember soothing him in between but if I did soothe him it didn't involve getting out of bed or breastfeeding.

Sunnie, how cute that Seren doesn't have any teeth! I love the gummy smile pre teeth!! I'm sad C has a couple making their way through, similar to how you feel about the walker!

Polaris, I don't know how you do it with two!! How long is Thomas' nap? I don't know anything about naps for that age group but I wonder if you could give him a cat nap or some quiet time around nap time? I hope you enjoyed your evening and Clara didn't wake too early

Lol @ Aimee, they are such drama queens at this age! C is the same. If I do something slightly different than how he would like it done, it's major meltdown at the moment. Sorry it took so long to calm her down but well done again on not nursing to sleep. I had a ridiculous situation last night around 45 mins after bedtime. C was lying next to me on the bed and I was desperate for him to fall asleep and he kept nursing for a minute and then rolling over pretending to sleep. The minute I moved to get up he was back to nursing then rolling over. This went on for 20 minutes until I finally caved and rocked him to sleep.

I hope everyone has a great day xxx

 

[Noelle610]

Glad to read about some improvement here!

Stephanie, have you thought about trying an EASY - type routine? Feeding upon waking?

 

[stephie_corin]

Noelle I would LOVE to do easy but he won't feed on waking, even in the morning, and cries terribly if I don't feed him before a nap. I'm open to any suggestions from anyone on how to switch to easy though x

 

[Aimee4311]

I've wondered about the EASY routine too, but Josalyn also doesn't want to feed upon waking. I can often get her to in the middle of her awake time though... Maybe that's where to start?

 

[mellyboo]

Update Jords has been doing good.

only up about twice a night which i'll be doing CC as soon as I get back from Vacation but it's fine for right now i'm not too tired during the day and I have energy although it would be nice for her just to stay sleeping all night but it is what it is right now and i remember the days it was a wholeee lot worse so i'll count my blessings !!

She slept at my mom's place for the first time since being 2 months old because i was always scared she would have my mom up all night and thats just horrible my mom works full time still right now and has a pretty busy life .. but my mom was excited to have her and she slept good for my mom.

I was worried about taking her out of her sleeping element for vacation but i'm sure she will be fine if she was fine at my mom's ... I made her take her naps at mom's all week so it's not that un fimiliar but still when your sleeping at a strange place over night it always feels off if you know what i mean!

so i'm feeling more positive about vacation and OH and I won't be like zombies on vacay lol

 

[polaris]

Noelle I would LOVE to do easy but he won't feed on waking, even in the morning, and cries terribly if I don't feed him before a nap. I'm open to any suggestions from anyone on how to switch to easy though x

I've really tried to get Clara on to an EASY routine. I used EASY with Thomas and it worked so well. I really presumed that I would do EASY with Clara too but she had other ideas! I have been trying to introduce EASY from quite an early stage so I don't think that it's just that I got her into the habit of doing it this way.

She is the same as Stephie's LO in that she refuses to feed on waking and forcefully demands a feed before sleep. In the past I have tried to feed her in the middle of her awake time but she will only ever take a small feed at that time and still demands a feed at nap-time. I'm sure it would be possible to switch her to EASY but it seems like it would involve a lot of protest! I've given up for the moment to be honest. It's annoying because it makes it hard for anyone but me to put her down for a nap.

 

[stephie_corin]

I just wanted to thank everyone for encouraging me to stick with the two naps. It's worked really well again and bed time is getting easier and easier. First two nights were 3 hours, then 1 hour, 45 minutes and then tonight... 30 minutes for him to be asleep on our bed. He seems to be sleeping really soundly.

I hope everyone has a great night xxx

ETA- he's been asleep since 630pm and its now 850pm. I feel really anxious and I don't know what to do with myself!

 

[Noelle610]

Glad it's going well Stephanie! I'm sorry I don't have advice to get her to eat upon awakening. I'll try to do some research and see what I can find.

Melly, I'm not surprised she slept well for your mom The two nights I've been away from Charlotte she's slept excellently for DH.

 

[NotNic]

Stephie since you are starting out with BLW have you thought about adopting EASY by giving solids on waking? He probably doesn't have an established solids food routine yet, so it might be a good way to introduce the idea of eating after waking slowly. Then maybe try add a milk feed in before solids after a few days of consistently sticking to the solids in that order? I have no idea if that would work but could be worth a try.

 

[Shadowy Lady]

so for those of you guys who asked we did put Sofia down later the past 2 nights (put her down at 7:30 pm, she was asleep in less than 10 mins)....BUT she woke up at 5:30 am both mornings, whined for 20 mins or so then went back to sleep till 7 pm.

I don't understand, with the earlier bedtime and whining before going to sleep she was sttn till 6:30/7 am :/

 

[seaweed eater]

Hi everyone, sorry I've been quiet -- things have been busy.

Thanks for all of your suggestions about avoiding the car nap! Sunnie, I will definitely try turning the radio on and off -- I like that one. Gaiagirl, in fact, we have taken a road trip, and we had that problem! Combined with the fact that he rarely nurses well outside home...it was a challenge.

Ugh, but listen to what happened today. LO was up at 5:30, great morning nap 9-10:30. At 12:30 I was in the backseat of the car with him and his eyes were closing. "Well," I thought, "I'll wake him up after exactly 5 minutes, and then he'll probably be in a better mood at lunch and start his afternoon nap around 2:30-3, wake up around 3:30, and be ready for bed at 7:30 -- perfect." Not so much. In fact his afternoon nap started at 4, I woke him at 4:30, and he was asleep at 8:30. Ugh! So a 5-minute car nap probably cost him at least an hour of sleep. Lesson learned: NO AVOIDABLE CAR NAPS, EVER.

Shadowy, how strange about the 5:30 waking I'm sorry, I don't know what to suggest. Maybe an intermediate bedtime of 7:15, if you think she's overtired?

Stephie, I'm really glad 2 naps is going well for you 2 x 45-60 minutes is pretty normal for us, or even a good day, so I would say it is definitely a good place to start. Regarding feeds, I think it's normal for them to be on fewer of those per day now. As he starts to take more solids I'm sure those will fill the gaps, as well as EBM in a cup as you mentioned. You could also try mixing it with cereal/avocado/banana/etc and either feed him with a spoon, or let him try to figure out the spoon himself. I hope you got over your anxiety about how long he'd been sleeping when you posted, and managed to get some sleep yourself!

Twister, glad things are still going well for you

Sunnie, I don't really have advice about the daytime separation anxiety clinginess, but I know it's tough if you are used to letting them play independently my approach is basically WIO...I assume I can't change his fears by forcing him to be away from me, so I let him cling. Within reason, of course -- if I need to use the bathroom or leave him at daycare, I just make sure to say bye bye, tell him when I'm coming back, and make sure he sees me leaving, and then get it over with even if he's crying. It was pretty overwhelming at first but I think I have actually gotten more used to it.

I know what you mean about practicing walking. Our babies are really growing up

Aimee, how did tonight go? I wouldn't worry about the tummy settling. You really don't know how things will go until you try them once! I'm sure she will forgive you

Polaris, did you wake Clara at 7 this morning? How did it go? Is she feeling better? I hope things go better with your son. You really have been struggling with this transition for a while, and it sounds tough does it help to remind yourself that it WILL be over soon? I hope it's really soon!

Sunshine I hope you decide on a method that you feel good about. Collectively we've all tried various things so I'm sure you'll be able to get advice from at least a couple people here on whatever you decide to do.

Gaia, sounds like Friday went well! How have the past couple days been? And how is Arrested Development?? I'll watch that someday when I have time, like maybe after the kids are all out of the house.

I hope I got everyone! to all, hope tonight is a good one

 

[stephie_corin]

Sorry I will respond properly later... I just wanted to say damn you BnB curse!!! We had a horrible night!! I think it's because he saw DH at 10pm when we went to bed. He woke up and got really excited and took 1.5 hours to settle then up every 45 minutes. Boo hoo.

Just going to close my eyes for a few minutes while Culver is sleeping xx