Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[stephie_corin]

SE I feel like I've missed you around here, hope life hasn't been too busy sorry you are having a tough time too! Hugs to you hon xxx

 

[Noelle610]

Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen.

In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.

 

[AmyS]

Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen.

In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.

Yes, that was who I was thinking about, thanks! Hope she can relay her story if she sees this and has time!

At daycare, the babies in that room can range anywhere from newborn to a year old. I think they either have to get used to sleeping in the racket, or they nap like crap until they move to the next room where they do have scheduled nap times. Small towns = not much in terms of choice for daycare!

 

[VikkiD]

Thanks SE - that's exactly what I told my OH don't think he dare suggest anything now lol

 

[Noelle610]

Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen.

In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.

Yes, that was who I was thinking about, thanks! Hope she can relay her story if she sees this and has time!

At daycare, the babies in that room can range anywhere from newborn to a year old. I think they either have to get used to sleeping in the racket, or they nap like crap until they move to the next room where they do have scheduled nap times. Small towns = not much in terms of choice for daycare!

That sucks! I totally understand your predicament. I use an in-home daycare and my provider didn't want to put Charlotte away from the other kids to nap for the longest time. The other baby her age did fine napping through noise, but C just cat-napped all day. It was only when she got a bit older and she felt more comfortable putting her to bed upstairs that she actually started napping well there.

 

[NotNic]

Hi girls long time no post!

Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?

Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?

Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!

Hope you're all well xx

Nothing changes Boo. Finlay and Jack react in exactly the same way to things!!! The learning to lay back down doesnt take that long. I'd say the phase lasted a week or two max. He still sits bolt upright with his eyes shut if he is woken by pain or wind, but I can lay him down and within seconds he is calm and asleep again. No idea why half asleep he wants to be upright when the rest of us would huddle under a duvet!! Also at nursery for the first few weeks he had x3 30-45 min naps a day. His last session he managed a 90min am nap and a 45min pm one. I think they just get better as they become more settled in their surroundings. Finlay also has a toy and his own blanket which we take in which might be helping.

How are you finding work?

As for us the early riser seems to be catching up on months of sleep, lying in until 7.30. It's making me late for work and I'm ever so behind on my washing.

 

[NotNic]

Also in case he sounds angelic, I better tell you that he has started to wake 6-7 times a night again. Flipping teeth!!

Amy - what's the first thing you want to work on? Sleep training is daunting until you break it down. Can you live with the early waking if the wake ups are fewer? Do you want to wean lo off night feeds? Also I'm going to hazard a guess that your lo might be giving you an extra tough time because of the CIO in the daytime. Have you thought about chatting to your childcare and finding out how exactly they do it, or if lo self-soothes in a particular way? You don't have to do CIO yourself, but you could replicate some of that routine to help encourage ss at home.

 

[AmyS]

NotNic - Hello! My ultimate goal (for now) would be fewer wake ups. I don't even mind 1 or 2 a night, and I don't mind feeding her at night if that's what she needs (She's never been a great eater). I think she'll eventually grow out of the early wake ups if I keep consistently putting her back to sleep until her normal wake up time.

I never even thought that the CIO at daycare could be affecting her nights at home!! All they do is strap her into her rock 'n play when she's fussy and let her cry. I think they also let her hold a burp rag for comfort, even though they aren't supposed to have anything with them for naps. (DH isn't comfortable letting her sleep with a lovey at home. He is too paranoid.)

Random fact: she has never taken to a pacifier either!

 

[seaweed eater]

Amy, can you tell us about her daily routine? How much daytime sleep does she usually get at daycare? Are the naps at a regular time or on demand? And when you say they use CIO, is she still crying a lot before she goes down? If they've been doing that for weeks and she's still crying, that's kind of a red flag for me in terms of sleep training -- if they're overextended and can't give her one-on-one attention to get her to sleep, that's one thing, but it shouldn't be considered sleep training at that point IMO.

30 minute naps don't mean the situation is hopeless. Often naps will lengthen after you lengthen WTs. And even if they don't lengthen by much, sometimes it can be enough. My LO has been doing pretty well on two 40-50 minute naps most days for over a month now.

And when do you put her down for the night?

I assume you have ruled out that it's light or noise contributing to the wakings -- might sound silly, but if you want to stick to no cry techniques I think you really have to get everything else right.

Are there any other ways you can soothe her to sleep, aside from feeding? Rocking perhaps? Does she calm down if you pick her up, or only if you feed her? Patting is a disaster for us as well. Just leaving my hand on him with a bit of pressure seems much better. If he's mad he still won't tolerate it and physically removes my hand from his body, but if he's almost asleep and just needs a little bit of help, that can do it sometimes. And most babies seem to take better to alternate soothing techniques than mine does! Might be something to try if you haven't already.

I'm going to respectfully (affectionately!) disagree with Stephie! I do think there are plenty of babies who learn to self-settle on their own with no intervention. That may be why there are a lot of feed-to-sleepers etc. out there who STTN. But to me the more relevant question is, if your baby is NOT one of those babies, would the ability to SS make a difference? And for us the answer has definitely been yes. I think when I started sleep training I thought it was sort of a general, probabilistic thing where a baby who knows how to SS is more likely to sleep for longer. But in fact we've often a much more specific effect, where for a given stretch of sleep LO sleeps for longer if he SS. It's obviously not a perfect correspondence, but strong enough to notice. I believe the same has been true for many others on this thread. It may not work for every baby, and obviously as a sleep training dropout there's only so much I can say in favor of that approach, but I do think if you are trying to lengthen sleep stretches, it is a productive approach to take.

Please keep talking to us, I hope we can give you some ideas that will help

 

[seaweed eater]

AFM, I am thinking it might be time to try gradual withdrawal/Sleep Lady Shuffle type training. Will sleep on it (ha ha, get it) and start Friday if it still seems like a good idea.

I think it might be a good time because:

- LO still can't get up from lying down, but he's going to learn how very soon.

- Our usual nursing routine hasn't been working great for the past maybe 3-4 nights. He wants to suck for ages and ages and won't fall asleep. Also he's started getting extremely frustrated and mad after I've de-latched him several times, and then sometimes he doesn't want to nurse anymore anyway. I can't rule out teething pain as a cause for this, but I've kind of given up on waiting for that.

- On two occasions, when he's been tired but in full tantrum mode, I've put him in his crib and sat next to him and shhhed without touching him, and he's calmed down and fallen asleep within surprisingly few minutes (and no puke). So I think there might be hope for that as an alternate way to settle him.

- I'm feeling relatively well rested and upbeat...I know it's ironic, but I've realized that I don't really feel like I have the energy for sleep training when I'm feeling exhausted, especially because I know it's probably going to make my own sleep much worse temporarily.

Also our doctor was very encouraging about gradual withdrawal as a better sleep training method than Ferber/CIO for a baby with separation anxiety. I know he's not a sleep specialist, but it was still nice to hear that from him.

My one reservation is that we are having a textbook WW37 so I wonder if we are making things harder on ourselves by taking this on when there is so much developmental stuff going on. But I'm not really convinced there's ever going to be less going on until after he learns to walk (and maybe not then).

Any thoughts?

 

[AmyS]

seaweed - Thanks for the reply! I'll try to answer as best I can!

I can't give you much of a routine for daycare days, because sometimes she will nap great, but most times she just cat naps here and there all day long. She comes home overtired every day. I'm going to talk with daycare tomorrow about her naps to see if she's still crying a lot when they put her down or not.

Every day, she is up by 6am, and on weekends, typically has her first nap by 8am. It's about 45 minutes long. Her second nap would probably be about 11am, for another 45 minutes. Her longest nap is in the afternoon, between 2-2:30pm, for 2-2 1/2 hours. I have to hold her for her naps, otherwise they would all be 30 minutes or less! I strive for good naps on the weekend so that she at least gets in some good sleep once in a while! Our short bedtime routine starts at 7 or 7:15 - pj's, diaper, book, bottle, bed. She is usually so cranky by then, that I end up skipping a few pages of the book! She is always asleep by 7:30. I rock her until about 8pm before putting her in her crib.

I have also rocked or bounced her to sleep for naps and most night wakings, because I only feed her once a night usually. She almost always calms down right away when I pick her up, unless she seems to be fighting sleep. Sometimes she fusses and pushes against me, but still seems to be sleeping...

I do have a black out curtain in her room and a white noise machine going at night. We live in a pretty quiet area, so I'm pretty sure it's not noise waking her up.

Sorry if my response is hurried!!! Baby girl is getting cranky fast, and it's time for a nap! Hopefully I can nap with her!!

 

[Boo44]

Hi girls long time no post!

Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?

Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?

Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!

Hope you're all well xx

Nothing changes Boo. Finlay and Jack react in exactly the same way to things!!! The learning to lay back down doesnt take that long. I'd say the phase lasted a week or two max. He still sits bolt upright with his eyes shut if he is woken by pain or wind, but I can lay him down and within seconds he is calm and asleep again. No idea why half asleep he wants to be upright when the rest of us would huddle under a duvet!! Also at nursery for the first few weeks he had x3 30-45 min naps a day. His last session he managed a 90min am nap and a 45min pm one. I think they just get better as they become more settled in their surroundings. Finlay also has a toy and his own blanket which we take in which might be helping.

How are you finding work?

As for us the early riser seems to be catching up on months of sleep, lying in until 7.30. It's making me late for work and I'm ever so behind on my washing.

Haha! I was just feeling bereft that Finlay was sleeping until 7.30 and not following his buddy Jack with the 6.30 starts - but I'll let you off with those night wakings!! Poor you x

 

[jessicatunnel]

Hey Amy! I'm sorry you're having a tough time, trust me, I've been there! I remember the days when she was waking up 7+ times a night and sometimes even up to 16/17! I honestly thought, there is NO WAY she will EVER sleep through the night. Well, she is now! And has been since.. 7 months I think?
We were feeding her to sleep from the day she was born. I knew it was such a bad habit but gosh, anything just to get her to sleep right? I actually messaged Noelle and asked for tips on how to get her to sleep without feeding to sleep and she gave me really good tips but in my head I was thinking, "Psh, yeah that will NOT work with Lilly." Lilly definitely was NOT the kind of baby I could just stick in the crib and walk out. She would SCREAM. Our bedtime routine was bath, story, bottle, bed. She was always falling asleep on the bottle, even if I tried to keep her awake it wouldn't work or she would get REALLY mad. Noelle suggested I move the bottle to the beginning of our routine. I wasn't completely confident that moving the bottle to the beginning of our routine would work so I kept it the same but instead of feeding her upstairs in her room in the dark, I brought her downstairs and read her a story and then fed her in the living room with dim lights. Being downstairs, she thought it was still play time and it was actually quite difficult getting her to drink the bottle because she wanted to play and I just kept thinking, "This is going to be a rough night, she's not going to go down after this, maybe I should just feed her to sleep?" I eventually got her to drink her full bottle and daddy gave her kisses and told her night night and I took her upstairs and laid her in her crib. Usually the moment her head touched the mattress she would cry but she just looked up at me. I gave her kisses, told her night night, covered her up and walked out. To my surprise and amazement she went to sleep! No crying, no fussing. She talked a little bit to herself but yeah, she self soothed and I was so proud. But I thought, this was a fluke, it's not going to last. Well she did it again the next night! And the next one, and the next one! It eventually got to where we would give her her bottle around 7, and let her walk around and drink it on her own however fast she wanted to, then we would do the rest of our routine and have her in bed by 730 with her putting herself to sleep. I never in a million years thought it would be so easy, or that my crazy fed to sleep obsessed baby would ever cooperate so well!

 

[Noelle610]

Hey Amy! I'm sorry you're having a tough time, trust me, I've been there! I remember the days when she was waking up 7+ times a night and sometimes even up to 16/17! I honestly thought, there is NO WAY she will EVER sleep through the night. Well, she is now! And has been since.. 7 months I think?
We were feeding her to sleep from the day she was born. I knew it was such a bad habit but gosh, anything just to get her to sleep right? I actually messaged Noelle and asked for tips on how to get her to sleep without feeding to sleep and she gave me really good tips but in my head I was thinking, "Psh, yeah that will NOT work with Lilly." Lilly definitely was NOT the kind of baby I could just stick in the crib and walk out. She would SCREAM. Our bedtime routine was bath, story, bottle, bed. She was always falling asleep on the bottle, even if I tried to keep her awake it wouldn't work or she would get REALLY mad. Noelle suggested I move the bottle to the beginning of our routine. I wasn't completely confident that moving the bottle to the beginning of our routine would work so I kept it the same but instead of feeding her upstairs in her room in the dark, I brought her downstairs and read her a story and then fed her in the living room with dim lights. Being downstairs, she thought it was still play time and it was actually quite difficult getting her to drink the bottle because she wanted to play and I just kept thinking, "This is going to be a rough night, she's not going to go down after this, maybe I should just feed her to sleep?" I eventually got her to drink her full bottle and daddy gave her kisses and told her night night and I took her upstairs and laid her in her crib. Usually the moment her head touched the mattress she would cry but she just looked up at me. I gave her kisses, told her night night, covered her up and walked out. To my surprise and amazement she went to sleep! No crying, no fussing. She talked a little bit to herself but yeah, she self soothed and I was so proud. But I thought, this was a fluke, it's not going to last. Well she did it again the next night! And the next one, and the next one! It eventually got to where we would give her her bottle around 7, and let her walk around and drink it on her own however fast she wanted to, then we would do the rest of our routine and have her in bed by 730 with her putting herself to sleep. I never in a million years thought it would be so easy, or that my crazy fed to sleep obsessed baby would ever cooperate so well!

A success story! Thanks Jessica

 

[AmyS]

Thanks Jessica! That's amazing! Honestly I can't imagine Chloe going down that easy. I am scared to try that but I am planning to some night when hubby is home for bedtime. I think it will take a lot of effort to keep her awake since she is always so tired. Can I ask what you would have done if she would have started crying?

(Everything I post on here makes it very apparent that my little diva runs the show!)

 

[NotNic]

Boo - don't worry. I'm sure these 7.30's are just a phase! Though if the trend continues I'm sure you'll have some lie ins coming up soon.

Amy - the best tip I got about night wakings was about giving a baby the chance to settle on their own. Not saying CIO but just holding back or hovering at the doorway to see if they need you or if they fall back asleep on their own, rather than rushing in to settle them. In some cases that activity wakes them up or disturbs their cycle. A minute or two observing from a safe point away from the crib isn't harmful and for a clingy baby, personally I don't think it hurts for them to start to appreciate that you can't always respond immediately. By watching as well you'll notice the different types of cries - the ones that are about to escalate and need intervention and the ones which are part of their own sleep routine.

 

[AmyS]

NotNic - Very true - I do need to wait it out before I intervene. I think sometimes I worry that if I wait too long, she'll be wide awake, and then it'll take even longer to get her back to sleep. And then sometimes I wonder if she was even awake, because she is settled as soon as her head hits my shoulder. (And I'm not THAT good!! haha)

 

[seaweed eater]

Amy, that amount of daytime sleep would be far, far too much for my LO. I know mine is on the lower end in terms of daytime sleep, and you said you try to let yours catch up since she doesn't sleep enough during the week, but it still sounds like a lot to me.

How old did you say she is? Almost 7 months? The wake times sound short for that age, too. It's interesting that you say she is cranky and ready to sleep by that time! Many of us in this thread have moved to 2 naps at that age and found that it has helped a lot. What do you think would happen if you stretched her wake times to 3 hours? Total meltdown?

 

[AmyS]

Amy, that amount of daytime sleep would be far, far too much for my LO. I know mine is on the lower end in terms of daytime sleep, and you said you try to let yours catch up since she doesn't sleep enough during the week, but it still sounds like a lot to me.

How old did you say she is? Almost 7 months? The wake times sound short for that age, too. It's interesting that you say she is cranky and ready to sleep by that time! Many of us in this thread have moved to 2 naps at that age and found that it has helped a lot. What do you think would happen if you stretched her wake times to 3 hours? Total meltdown?

Right now, she's only been awake for 1 1/2 hours, and she's getting cranky and acting ready for bed! I agree, it seems like her wake times are short. She's always been on the low side of wake times for her age, and I'm not sure if it has something to do with the fact that she was born 5 weeks early. I'm always unsure of what things you need to adjust their age for!

What would you suggest to start with? 2.5 hours?

 

[seaweed eater]

Hmm...I'd try, maybe 3 times, putting her down half an hour later than you normally would. Like, notice the moment when you would normally put her down, look at the clock, and then shoot for half an hour after that. Just to see what would happen.