Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[AmyS]

Stephie - She slept ok in bed with me this morning. She moves a lot and smacks me in the face a lot. I can't say I slept at all! Her naps yesterday were pretty good though. She took a really good 90 minute nap in the morning and a 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Her last nap ended at 4:20, so she didn't go too far past the 4pm cut-off, but I wasn't there to wake her up.

Even though she was up quite a bit last night, I feel like she's making progress. Once when she woke up, I patted her tummy a couple of times, and she rolled to her side and babbled for a second, then rolled to her tummy and fell asleep - it just seemed so easy for her! I think tonight I will put her down immediately after her bottle while she's still kind of awake and see what she does.

 

[MiniKiwi]

Thanks girls

Night four and not a single tear here again, she's just gone to bed at 7pm so fingers crossed!

Fingers crossed for you too seaweed! I really hope it works out for us both

 

[bananaz]

Thanks girls

Night four and not a single tear here again, she's just gone to bed at 7pm so fingers crossed!

Fingers crossed for you too seaweed! I really hope it works out for us both

That's so amazing!! Fingers crossed it continues.

It sounds like she was ready, honestly.

 

[bananaz]

Guess who STTN 8:45-6:15. I am not changing a darn thing tonight!!!!

Hooray!! Always nice to see good news in this thread

 

[stephie_corin]

Stephie - She slept ok in bed with me this morning. She moves a lot and smacks me in the face a lot. I can't say I slept at all! Her naps yesterday were pretty good though. She took a really good 90 minute nap in the morning and a 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Her last nap ended at 4:20, so she didn't go too far past the 4pm cut-off, but I wasn't there to wake her up.

Even though she was up quite a bit last night, I feel like she's making progress. Once when she woke up, I patted her tummy a couple of times, and she rolled to her side and babbled for a second, then rolled to her tummy and fell asleep - it just seemed so easy for her! I think tonight I will put her down immediately after her bottle while she's still kind of awake and see what she does.

Ah you poor thing!! I think if you aren't used to sleeping right next to each other it can be a big adjustment! Some babies (and mummies!!!) just prefer their own space.

Her naps sound fantastic! Well done! And your progress is great! We have luck with the tummy rub too sometimes. Good luck for tonight xxx

 

[polaris]

Seaweed, Yay!!!! So pleased to read about your progress and that this method is working so well for you!

I am feeling so conflicted about this whole sleep thing at the moment. I think I am doing too much reading on both sides of the debate and I just can't balance things up for myself.

So tonight I guess we sort of did pick up put down at bedtime because everytime I put her in the cot no matter how drowsy she seemed she just immediately stood up, she was fine for a few minutes chatting away happily but then started to cry, I picked her up and resettled her and put her back in the cot, same thing happened, and repeat and repeat. Eventually after about forty minutes of this she must have been too tired to stand up and she just wriggled about a bit and went to sleep. I do think maybe her bedtime is too early. She seems to need so much less sleep than DS did at the same age. I am aiming for a four hour wake time before bed but it is usually ending up closer to five hours. But is this not too long for a nine month old?

Her routine is usually:
7 a.m. Wake up (I usually have to wake her)
9.30 - 10.30/11 - Nap
2.30-3.30 - Nap
7.30 - Bedtime (but doesn't go to sleep until closer to 8.30)

Should I move bedtime later? I find it really hard to tell the difference between when she's undertired and when she's overtired!

 

[seaweed eater]

Amy, sounds like great progress on all fronts. I hope things are better for you with two naps. The tummy patting sounds like it is working really well!

Polaris, Munchkin often seems to want closer to 5 hours before bedtime. I know this often has to do with the car nap, but sometimes even with no car nap he won't go down earlier than that. I found that it wasn't doing much good to fight him at bedtime so now I just wait for his cues. He's generally a baby who does better with routine, but this has been working well, knock on wood. His bedtime is too late now but it's better than the tantrums we were having before (which were getting him so worked up that he was going to sleep at a later time anyway).

Thanks everyone for the support I was just shocked. I really could not have imagined him STTN for months -- he's never even really been close. Need to find a way to move bedtime earlier now, because I don't think <10 hours is enough. Feel like this whole thing has taught me something about not fighting his natural preferences too hard, but I don't want to say anything at least until we have a few more good nights.

 

[Noelle610]

Polaris, I think at nine months I'd reduce the wake time before lengthening it. I think the recommended maximum awake time the chart I post frequently is about 4 hours - have you tried scaling it back to 3.5 or so? Sometimes overtired can look like undertired, because a baby gets a "second wind" and seems hyper, having difficulty settling.

 

[polaris]

Polaris, I think at nine months I'd reduce the wake time before lengthening it. I think the recommended maximum awake time the chart I post frequently is about 4 hours - have you tried scaling it back to 3.5 or so? Sometimes overtired can look like undertired, because a baby gets a "second wind" and seems hyper, having difficulty settling.

This is exactly what I would have thought myself but I just find it really hard to tell with Clara because she doesn't get cranky or erratic when she's tired, just a bit giggly. Like today for her second nap, she was definitely overtired because we had been out at the beach all morning and she was later than usual going down. So definitely overtired rather than undertired, but if I didn't know, I would have guessed she was undertired from the way she was acting. It was so much easier to tell with Thomas because he just got cranky and irritable even if he was also wired and wound up. So maybe bedtime is actually too late and I should cut the last wake-time back again. I was doing 3.5 for ages though and moved it to 4 hours because she didn't seem tired earlier. But now she still doesn't seem tired. Maybe she actually needs a much earlier bedtime. I'm sure Weissbluth would say I'm putting her to bed way too late. She is just an enigma with regard to her sleep!!

ETA - Seaweed, that's interesting that Munchkin often does closer to 5 hours before bedtime, it is obviously working for you since he's sleeping so much better now. My gut is telling me that 5 hours is too long for Clara though, even though she seems to be in great form!

 

[NotNic]

Polaris Finlay is the same as Clara. He will just keep going until he literally passes out! If there are enough distractions he will be hyper and happy and will keep going way past 9pm with only one nap. If he's not entertained though he can be a massive pain in the bum! On the upside we regularly take him out for dinner and drinks parties and he will sit with us and nibble on breadsticks and have a whale of a time. Our Spanish friends say he's a Mediterranean baby! Finlay's bedtime has pretty much been 7.30-8pm. He doesn't have to be asleep but we aim for him to be in the cot by 8pm. I would suggest trying 30mins of quiet time. I've said before how Finlay gets a bit energised before bed, and rather than do the constant pupd I have him downstairs and let him crawl about. If he's calm enough I read him a story or we just sit and cuddle watching one of the story times on TV or listen to nursery rhymes. Tonight we watched the Voice Uk and after watching 3 singers he was chilled out enough so I thought I'd try putting him down. He fell asleep within minutes! Also sometimes instead of pupd I just sit with my back to the cot and read a story. He normally sits down to see what I'm doing and watches the story through the cot bars. Easiest way ever to get him to sit down!!

 

[Aimee4311]

I'm thinking we're officially going to stick with 2 naps! Today was a success!

9:00 wake up
12:30- 1st nap
1:45- wake up
4:30- 2nd nap
5:30- wake up
8:30- asleep for the night

For both naps she fell asleep really easily, no fuss at all. Tonight she fussed maybe 10 minutes or so, then passed out.

I think I'll like this routine! I feel like there's so much more freedom with only two naps!

Tomorrow I'm going to pay closer attention to her awake times so they're not so irratic.

 

[seaweed eater]

NotNic, I love all the little tricks you use when F is in his crib! Will have to steal the story reading idea once Munchkin is getting up.

Polaris, I think it would be better if Munchkin had an earlier bedtime. He only sleeps 9 or 10 hours most nights and usually is relatively grumpy until after his first nap. Optimally I think he needs about 11 hours at night. But we just can't seem to make an earlier bedtime work these days. His mood actually gets better and better throughout the day, and after dinner is his best time now. I don't know what that means about his daytime sleep! But in any case, I would try earlier in case that works for Clara, because I don't think what we're doing is optimal, even though it seems to be the best we can do right now.

Aimee, so glad 2 naps worked well for you today! If you start having any trouble, I would move both naps 30-60 minutes earlier and keep the nights the same. The first WT seems long and the last one seems short relative to what I would expect for a 2 nap schedule. But as long as it's working, don't change a thing!

We had a little crying today at bedtime. Maybe 5 minutes. Not bad at all. Thinking of trying to settle without nursing if he wakes during the night tonight, since he's had two nights now without much (or any) milk. Scary thought we shall see!

Stephie, how are things? Hope everyone else is doing well!

 

[stephie_corin]

Polaris, hugs ... We've got another one here who likes a 5 hour wake time before bed. Bedtime routine starts at 5.15 and he's asleep around 7... I'm sorry you are feeling so torn about sleep. Try not to overanalyse and just go with your instincts. Mummy instincts are rarely wrong.

Aimee, so glad 2 naps worked for you! I also love the freedom of 2 naps.

NotNic, love these suggestions!! C gets really wired before bed too.

SE, so funny - C is always grumpy in the morning and his mood just gets better as the day goes on too! I'm so happy he's now sleeping so well for you. I don't think it would be unreasonable at all to try settle him without nursing; he's shown he doesn't need it.

As for us... To be honest I'm just feeling lost. I'm so tired - I'm back to that 'I want to cry' tired. I feel a bit crazy when I post here because some days I'm so optimistic and others just feel so hopeless. I feel like I can't get it together. I just wish I could settle him easier. This last week nothing seems to work. It takes me so long to settle him when he wakes and he is waking crying rather than his usual moan. I don't know if its teething, developmental or what, but I can't nurse him back to sleep at night. He nurses down for each nap but at night I have to nurse, rock, hold then I try put him down when i think he's asleep and he cries again and the whole thing starts over.

Sorry for the brain dump. No idea what is going on with us. On the positive, naps have been great and he has actually been ss for naps and taking a 1.5 hour afternoon nap with no assistance from me. I do lie next to him but now he opens his eyes, takes a look around and goes back to sleep!

 

[stephie_corin]

So I just had breakfast with a girlfriend who showed me the two big bulges on the front of Cully's gums. I had no idea that the top teeth came in at the front of the gum... I've been looking in the roof of his mouth and seen no signs... So hopefully that is the cause of the waking and crying and difficulty settling we've had this week. He's also refused to eat anything these last two days so maybe teething is causing this too. Or maybe he is just the world's worst sleeper. Lol. Please let it be the former! X

 

[seaweed eater]

I chickened out on not nursing. Decided before I went to bed that I would nurse once if he woke up after 3...and he was up at 3:30 maybe tonight! Another amazingly good night though.

Stephie, I'm so sorry you guys are struggling. I know that lost feeling. Has pain relief (if you've given any) made any difference? I hope those teeth come in soon. I feel a bit clueless for never being able to tell when Munchkin is about to get a tooth, but I honestly think he gets all the signs weeks or months in advance. It does seem like most babies show you when they are teething, though.

I'm glad you are getting good naps. Did you do anything in particular to encourage SS for those? I wonder whether the same thing would work during the night. It sounds like you have tried everything. Are you managing to nap during C's naps during the day? Is there any way to get more help from DH?

 

[stephie_corin]

SE munchkin may be able to add psychic powers to his long list of skills what a great night, that's so fantastic.

I haven't given any pain relief as I'd seen no signs of teething until now. I didn't want to give pain relief just for bad sleep. I've got some homeopathic teething powders someone has given me to try. Has anyone used those before? If they don't make a difference I will give him a dose of iboprufen.

I've done nothing differently for naps. Today he took a mind boggling one hour morning nap and two hour afternoon nap. I had to wake him from his afternoon nap!!! It's interesting how longer naps are affecting bedtime. It was 6pm yesterday and is 730 today based on same awake times.

Unfortunately poor DH is so busy at work. We aren't seeing a lot of him. But if these long naps continue I will definitely be napping with him!!

I hope everyone has a great night xxx

 

[gaiagirl]

Hey just checking in. No point updating on me, since we are still cutting teeth and its pretty bleak. lol.

Stephie we have a lot of evening settling issues too, one thing that often works is nursing to sleep lying IN my bed so I don't have to transfer him. Have you tried that?

I hope those teeth quickly cut for you...it has been so brutal here. He has now cut teeth #1 - 5 and 6/7 are close. Weirdly, 8 doesn't seem close...argh.

As for the homeopathics...I am not really a fan of homeopathy, since it's pretty much not backed by any evidence ever. LOL. The hylands and camilia stuff we have in Canada is a bit sketchy for me, because it's active ingredient is Bella Donna which is a HIGHLY toxic and fatal plant-based chemical. Granted, the amt in each dose is so ridiculously low its basicaly non-existent, but when FDA did random testing awhile ago there were inconsistent amounts in each tablet...which makes me uncomfortable.

I am not huge on pharmaceuticals either, but TBH I would rather give something either a) completely and totally harmless like clove oil or a cold cloth or b) a drug that is heavily regulated and tested like Tylenol or Advil.

I have tried not to give medication every day during this bleak period. For ex, I gave it for a few nights in a row then none for 36 hours, then one dose, then none for 24. He sleeps much better on nights I do but I am just not comfortable with it day after day...

It is such a tough one because as a parent you take real liberties with making decisions for your child. Whether it is deciding that they dont get medication and have to deal with discomfort, or deciding that you are going to give them something that does have an impact on little developing organs.... It is a tough one.

 

[polaris]

Stephie, it definitely sounds like it could be the top teeth coming through. I actually didn't notice Clara's until they were through because I was also looking in the wrong place. You'd think I'd know since it's my second time around. Hopefully that is the explanation for the awful sleep and it will settle down soon.

Gaiagirl, I know exactly what you mean about it being such a responsibility to make the right decisions for your child. I have a real tendency to overthink things and you can really end up questioning everything. I don't feel comfortable giving medications just for poor sleep either, LOL, she would be having them every single night if that was the case! I probably end up under-medicating because I just don't like giving them. But Clara has definitely had more medications than Thomas had at the same age. But she has also been unwell much more often than he was and she also seems much more affected by teething and illness.

I tried putting Clara to bed at 7 p.m. this evening (shortening wake time to 3 hours). I wouldn't say that she settled easily but she was asleep by 7.30 which is a lot earlier than she's been asleep recently. Ideally I would love to do half an hour of quiet time in the room with her before settling her to sleep, but it's not really possible because I'm often here on my own and need to get Thomas to bed too. That's probably the main reason she ended up going to bed later because I could get him settled first and then have as much time as necessary to settle her. Feeding her to sleep lying down is the main thing that is working for us at the moment but it seems like such a backwards step because she was self-settling up until recently. She is not going to sleep easily at all at the moment. I am wondering if all her wake times are actually too long based on the chart that Noelle posted. I just seem to be questioning everything at the moment and I feel like I can't make any decisions at all, I change my mind several times a day about what the best thing is to do. Cosleeping is working really well during the night but it could be coincidence but since we started cosleeping her ability to settle for naps and bedtime seems to have gone to pot. She won't go in the cot at all now, whereas up until now she's been happy to go into the cot and I had no trouble at all with naps. Sometimes I feel like her sleep is affecting me too much and that I should just do sleep training with her and try to get it sorted. But I honestly don't know if I could face all the crying again. Anyway, I am going to leave things as they are for the week because we are going away next week for five days so there's not much point doing anything before that. Hopefully her settling issues for naps and bedtimes will settle down if I can just get her schedule right for her.

 

[gaiagirl]

Hugs Polaris xxxx I know exactly how you feel. We have gone back and forth on nursing to sleep in my bed and it always feels like a step backwards. My goal is for him to sleep in his crib for naps and evening and for awhile we had it and it was great! Now it's all so haywire and I have to just embrace the ups and downs or I will lose my mind.

Today is literally the worst.nap.day.ever. I don't even need to elaborate, I'm sure you all get it.

 

[NotNic]

I'm probably very different to a lot of you here about medication. I regularly give Finlay pain relief. Not for the sake of it but I would rather give him 2.5mls of nurofen then hear his pain cry. Sure in the beginning I felt very bad even about giving infacol, but Finlay is very expressive and I know when he really needs it. A big thing for me was finding a nursery happy to give pain medication. My sister was under Great Ormond St Hospital for her whole childhood though, so I know how mild children's pain medication is in comparison to hospital pain relief, so I have less concerns about him having it, then other parents might be. We do use teething granules. Though more so when he was smaller. It works best for him when he is in a huge tizz. It just calms him down so much. Around 5 mths he'd pass out afterwards. It was like he was thinking 'Finally Mummy! I've been telling you for ages I needed something!'

For those who have regular sttn's, can I ask how do you do it? We get a few then have a few shockers. We hardly have rows at bedtime, when he wakes he normally settles very quickly with minimal help and he's a good self-soother when he goes to sleep. He has all the skills yet still is hit and miss. Even the earlyish starts are manageable now. They work well with our lifestyle especially now I have to be up for work before 6am. I'm wondering if we should have tried CIO when he was younger but it never seemed bad enough for formal sleep training (even when I was dead on my feet!!). Sleep training still feels a bit like cracking a nut with a mallet!