Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!

[rmsh1]

rmsh - welcome to the thread. Honestly I think what you are describing sounds very normal for your LO's age. I wouldn't stress too much about the early bedtime yet, 9.30 is a good bedtime for a 12 week old baby in my opinion, it will naturally move earlier with time. Just watch out for her getting tired earlier in the evening so that you don't leave her bedtime too late for too long. I also wouldn't worry about the daytime routine being inconsistent. Neither of mine have settled into any sort of consistent daytime routine until about 6 or 7 months. At this age I would just go by wake times. How long after she wakes are you putting her down for a nap? Also, how she is sleeping now really doesn't predict how she will sleep in a few months time. My first slept absolutely terrible at 12 weeks but his sleep improved dramatically at four months and although it remained up and down for the first year he was generally a reasonably good sleeper after the first four months. My second slept really well at 12 weeks but things went seriously downhill at four months and I have been a constant visitor to this thread for months. So there's just no way of knowing yet! Try not to worry too much about what other people's babies are doing, she's so young at the moment, everything can change so much.

She is awake until she shows me signs of needing sleep. Some mornings she might be awake two hours after she first wakes, but normally it is just over an hour before she shows signs and I put her down. I still have to rock her cot gently most times she goes down for a day time nap, but not always.

At night, she is normally asleep by 9.30pm. Tonight I have her down at 8.30pm. The earliest she has even gotten up is 7am, but this is variable too. Sometimes I try to keep her awake when she wakes at this time, other times there is just no keeping her awake. She wakes at last three times every night, sometimes 4 times, and she feeds at every waking. Sometimes her feeds are only one or two minutes long, but mostly she has good 5 minute feeds every time she wakes (she is an efficient feeder, 5 minutes feeding seems to fill her most times).

I have been changing her nappy at her approximate 5am wake time as her nappy is full then, but maybe I should leave it completely til she wakes up? She goes back to sleep fine after I do this.

Hi rmsh, and welcome. I agree, LO is very young and this sounds reasonably common for her age. I would start by waking her at the same time every morning. Pick a time that suits your family (say, 7am) and from there you should get an idea of her natural napping patterns. Although expect things to change quickly as the weeks go by!

Do you nap during the day when LO is sleeping to catch up on sleep?

Hugs to you xxx

Edit - let us know how you approach naps, night wakings, how much day sleep LO is getting?

7am is a good time to get her up, although I am tired when I get up. I try to get her up then but some mornings there is just no keeping her awake. I tend to get up and have a shower and breakfast if she goes back to sleep.

I do not nap during the day, have not been able to since she was born. I used to love a day time nap, but now I just cannot turn off.

Day time naps occur only when Emma gives me sleepy signs. I swaddle her (only during the day now, I do not do this at night anymore as it was not helping her sleep any longer), put on some relaxing music and if I caught her at just the right time, she goes to sleep with no interference, but I normally have to rock the cot a little each time she makes a little cry. She sleeps at least an hour most naps. When she wakes I feed her, never longer than 3 hours between day time feeds. Then she gets burped, nappy change, tummy time and play time, until she shows sleepy signs again. Sometimes this is two hours but mostly just over an hour. Then back for a nap.

Night time wakings, I simply pick her up (she is in our room as we only have a one bed place until I return to work), we have a dim night light so no lights go on. I feed her then straight back to bed. Once her sucking slows I take her off my boob so she does not suckle completely to sleep, but really she is barely awake. I do not speak to her or interact with her at all, other than give her a boob.

So day sleeps, she gets over 4 hours normally. So I would guess at night she gets between 10-12 hours, and day time at least 4 hours. Today she had heaps of day time sleep, I could not keep her awake. She got up at 7.30am, went to sleep at 9am, up at 10am, then asleep at 11.30am , woke at 12.30pm for a feed and went straight back to sleep til 3pm..... That was a big sleep, but she just did not want to wake up. Then she had another sleep 5-6pm, but I think all this sleeping today might partly be due to her 12 week growth spurt, she has fed a lot too. And she is fast asleep now at 8.30pm.

I had trouble with her day sleeps and I went to a sleep clinic, and they showed me the whole "sleep, feed, tummy time, play time til sleepy signs show, then sleep" routine. And they showed me how to get her to sleep (ie the cot rocking only as she cries, not til she falls asleep).

Phew, that was a novel sorry

 

[stephie_corin]

Wow RMSH, it sounds like you are doing everything textbook correctly well done. You seem to have a really good handle on appropriate responses and how to soothe her for naps etc. its great you aren't feeding to sleep too - my son has a really strong suck to sleep association and it means no one can put him down but me. It's a good sign that she is waking at night and going straight back to sleep - she doesn't have her days and nights confused. There are quite a few growth spurts up to 6 months of age, so she may actually be waking from hunger.

As I said, you're already doing a fantastic job. What I would suggest is:

- get her up at 7 (or 730 if you want to shower first) so it will start setting her internal clock. She may be difficult to wake but persevere and soon she should start waking naturally at this time.
- decrease her max awake time to 1.5 hours. This means she should be asleep 1.5 hours after she last woke.
- if you can manage it, try to feed her more frequently in the day. The more she eats during the day, the less likely it is she will wake at night for a feed. This is particularly true if she is going through a growth spurt.
- if you can get away with one nappy until morning time, I wouldn't change her. I only change my son if he has a dirty nappy between bed time and morning.

I know it's hard to switch off but do try to lie down at least once in the day when she is taking a long nap. Even lying with your eyes closed resting is very restorative.

Good luck, I'm sure the others will have good advice for you too. Please keep us updated xxx

 

[AmyS]

Just when I thought things couldn't possible get worse! Of course they can. Really.

Let's see, Chloe was asleep by 7:30, in her crib by 8:15. Then, we were up at 9:30, 10:30, 11:15, 12:00-3:15, and then up for the day at 5:45. Her 3 hour wake time included a 1 1/2 hour sobbing/screaming fest with me trying to comfort her. The only thing that would calm her down was the golf channel!

She was rolling all over her crib and trying to crawl, and then when I finally got her to sleep at 3:15, I laid her down beside me on my fancy air mattress, and she snuggled right up and didn't move a muscle! Unfortunately, I couldn't sleep then, because I was worried her nose was too close to my shirt. I really do think it's the developmental stuff waking her up, so I am not getting frustrated at all, but I'm just dragging today. Hopefully, only another week of this or so...
___________

rmsh1 - I am definitely no sleep expert, but I'd have to agree with everyone else, it sounds like you are doing great!! I do remember from that time, my LO's bedtime was around 9 or 9:30 too, and it eventually got earlier and earlier. Now, she consistently goes down at 7 or 7:30.

 

[polaris]

Amy - That really sounds like the night from hell! I really know that horrendous tiredness after a night of no sleep. It definitely does sound developmental though, I hope she figures things out quickly and both of you can get some sleep.

rmsh - I think it sounds like you are doing everything right. I think one of the hardest things about baby sleep is letting go of the belief that there is a magic formula that will get them sleeping right and accepting that to a large extent it is out of your control. I would continue with what you are doing but I would try to relax about her sleep and avoid letting it get in on you if she's not sleeping perfectly (I am the biggest stress head about Clara's sleep so I should really follow my own advice. LOL). Some babies sleep through the night early and their parents do everything "wrong" whereas other babies just don't even if you do everything according to recommendations. I think Stephie's advice is good and I would definitely agree with shortening wake-times to 1.5 and controlling the morning wake-up time - but honestly there is only so much you can do and the rest is just out of your control. I found (find) this very hard to come to terms with as I am used to being in control of things and I think I can see a bit of that in your post (apologies if I am reading too much into your post). I always feel that if I can just control all the variables it will sort her sleep out - it is a huge pressure to put on oneself because you can then end up almost viewing it as a personal failure if they don't sleep.

I am trying wake times of 3, 3.5, and 3.5, and I am really trying to have a 30 minute wind-down before sleep. So far it's working well. I think she really needs the wind-down time because I only had 15 minutes wind-down before nap 2 today and it took her an extra 15 minutes to fall asleep so that wake-time ended up being 3.75. Ha, I'm just reading back on my advice to rmsh above and then I launch straight into my own personal attempt to control everything and achieve perfect sleep! I should really follow my own advice.

Stephie and Gaia - Clara nurses down before every nap and bedtime too so OH never puts her to bed. My older boy didn't nurse to sleep and it really was much easier to leave him with other people. However I tried hard to get Clara onto an EASY routine and she was having none of it!

 

[stephie_corin]

Amy, you poor poor thing. I know it doesn't help but we have all had such terrible nights and they don't last forever. C is in our bed full time now but I remember when I used to bring him in for part of the night and I would have the same paranoia

We talk about teething a lot on this thread - do you think it might be teething causing her crying. I know with Cully there are his usual night wakings when he is relatively easy to settle, and his teething night wakings, which involve a lot of crying and difficulty in getting him back to sleep. Do you give any pain relief?

As for us, C crawled for the first time this afternoon. Luckily daddy was home with stomach flu (that sounds bad but you know what I mean... Good daddy was home ) and got to see it too! I don't know if this will make sleep better or worse for us now. But an exciting development none the less!

Hope everyone has a good night!

Edit - I agree with Polaris that it's developmental too, I was just wondering if teething might also be a factor xx

 

[Noelle610]

Aww Stephie, that's so exciting!

I think the teething thing comlicates sleep so much, because you can never be sure... They're really teething for years! I give ibuprofin when in doubt and it usually helps to curb night wakings.

 

[polaris]

Stephie, yay for crawling!! You will probably find that he wants to practice crawling instead of sleeping for a bit but once he gets used to his new skill sleep should improve.

 

[AmyS]

stephie - In hindsight, I probably should have tried giving her something, but I haven't been able to feel anything coming through yet. To me, her cry was more of a "You're a bad mommy, you ripped the head off of my Wubbanub and fed it to the dog!" cry than a pain cry. I don't know. It's so hard to tell!!! I am always worried about medicating when it's not necessary. I think tonight I will give her something before bed though, just to be on the safe side.

So glad your hubby got to see him crawling, even if he was sick!! Those moments come and go too fast!

 

[stephie_corin]

Amy, regarding pain relief I always hold off giving it until I go to bed. So I put up with night wakings until then and if he is still waking with a pained cry I give it to him on the first waking after I go to sleep. It means he only has one dose and I can also be a bit more sure that it's pain rather than difficulty settling.

Thanks Noelle, Amy, Polaris! We are really excited. I know every baby crawls at some point but when it's your own baby it feel like man is taking his first step on the moon!

 

[seaweed eater]

Amy, I am so so sorry you had such an awful night. We had a very similar one recently. It is just crushing. If your LO is working on crawling then I bet it's to do with that. I think something that has helped us is really trying to wear him out during the day and especially the last WT. (Up until winding down time before bed, of course.)

Hi Rmsh, welcome, sorry to see you here your LO sounds very very normal for her age and you are doing everything right. You have also gotten some good advice. I would particularly echo everything Polaris said. My experience based on my own LO and hearing from other moms at baby groups is that the books are much more helpful for older babies (>4 months) than younger ones. Does it seem like Emma is tired and grumpy and not getting enough sleep? Or is it just that it's not sustainable for you? I ask in no way to discount the importance of making sure that things are sustainable for you, but the approach may be slightly different if LO seems all right. Definitely give yourself quiet time during the day even if you can't nap.

The most important thing at her age is respecting maximum wake times IMO. I think a consistent morning wake time would also be great for getting an idea of a daily rhythm, but she may even be a bit young to have much of a routine. I would swap out the music for white noise, and keep it on throughout her naps (more for when she is older, because it sounds like this is working fine right now -- you could also wait if you don't want to make the change). And, you probably are already, but make sure you are doing the exact same things in the same order at every nap time.

You said you have a one bed place, but if you keep feeling like the wakings are really too much, you may see if there's any way you can give LO her own space -- by having you and DH try sleeping in the living room, or putting up a curtain to separate her space from yours or something like that. My LO's 4 month regression (which started at 12 weeks) was "solved" by moving him out of our room to his own room. We didn't do that until about 18-19 weeks so I don't know whether it would have worked sooner, but he went back to 5-7 hour stretches immediately (from waking every 2 hours or so). Not saying that will necessarily help for your LO, but it may be something to try.

I hope things get better and you manage to get some rest soon

Stephie, congrats on the crawling!!! I hope it doesn't make things worse. Just give him a lot of time to practice during the day I guess, but of course you know that already! Munchkin has nearly learned how to roll from tummy to back (that's right, he still can't ) and I think if he gets that before crawling he probably will not crawl...which I am ok with.

Polaris, so interesting that shortening WTs is working well for you. Maybe when this sleep training stuff settles down I will try that.

AFM, Munchkin was up at 1:30 and 5 tonight, and I'd decided I would nurse him every time for the sake of of my own sanity (on Saturday night he had an early waking and I didn't feed him, which went fine). But he came off awake and SS quietly both times, so hopefully we are back on track. I was afraid last night that I'd somehow roused his anger and now he will want to protest all the time, but DH said he doesn't see how that's possible when I stayed consistent and LO did eventually SS in bed. I hope he's right.

 

[Aimee4311]

I have a question for y'all!

We've been down to two naps a day for about a week now, and it's been going really well! No melt downs due to tiredness, she falls asleep super easily, etc.

But today she's been super sleepy. She had a meltdown about 1 hour and 45 minutes after waking this morning and fell asleep nursing about a minute later. She's now on her second nap of the day only about 2 hours after waking from the first. It looks like it's going to be a 3 nap day for the first time in a little while.

Do any of y'all's babies have the occasional extra nap? Maybe she's in a growth spurt?

 

[Noelle610]

I have a question for y'all!

We've been down to two naps a day for about a week now, and it's been going really well! No melt downs due to tiredness, she falls asleep super easily, etc.

But today she's been super sleepy. She had a meltdown about 1 hour and 45 minutes after waking this morning and fell asleep nursing about a minute later. She's now on her second nap of the day only about 2 hours after waking from the first. It looks like it's going to be a 3 nap day for the first time in a little while.

Do any of y'all's babies have the occasional extra nap? Maybe she's in a growth spurt?

We definitely had the occassional third nap until around 9 months. And even know Charlotte might have one if she's ill or something.

 

[ShelbyLC]

I'm wondering if I can join you ladies here. My LOs are going through the 4 month sleep regression/wonder week 19 right now and it's killing me. They used to sleep 12-13 hours straight from about 7pm to 8am but now there's no routine, very little sleep, and everything is just awful. I have PND, which I just recently started treatment for, so that just makes everything worse.

Our days used to look like this:

6:30 - I wake up, pump, get milk put away, then back to bed to cuddle with OH until the girls wake up
8:00 - Girls wake up. Change diapers, get dressed for the day, have bottles. Play for about 45 minutes, then finish bottles.
9:30 - Nap #1, OH leaves for work
11:00 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles, play.
12:30 - Nap #2. I pump again.
1:45 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles. Play or go out.
3:15 - Nap #3
4:15 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles, play.
5:00 - Daddy is home! I pump. They begin to get fussy. Occasionally they would cat nap for 10-15 minutes.
5:50 - They are tired. I put milk away and get things together for their bath.
6:20 - Bath, dressed for bed, bottle.
7:00 - Asleep

Now, our days look something like this:

9:00am to 5:00pm - a clusterf**k of too-short naps, crying babies, pumping, feeding, and absolutely NO leaving the house unless I want to listen to them scream because they can't see anything from the stroller.
5:00pm - Daddy gets home from work and I cry with relief. Pump.
6:00pm - Babies go to sleep
9:30pm - Babies wake up. They are somehow wide awake and tireless for 3-4 hours. Bath time, lots of soothing, rocking, swaddling, driving in the car, and swearing from Mommy and Daddy.
Between 12:00am and 3:00am - Babies fall asleep.
4 hours after falling asleep - one baby wakes up. Quick bottle, then back to sleep.
1 hours after first baby falls asleep - second baby wakes up. Quick bottle, then back to sleep.
Repeat

I don't know what to do. They are exhausted during the day and wide awake at night. I'm tired, OH is tired, we're stressed, my boobs are always hurting from being off schedule with my pumping (I try to pump when they sleep but sometimes they wake up before I'm done or I NEED to pump and they refuse to nap, so they cry while I pump and cry because they are crying...) and I am just SO. DONE. with all of this.

We've already seen their pediatrician and there's no underlying problem. They just won't sleep. And nothing I try works. I can't hold them until they fall asleep or cosleep with them, because if they see me or OH while they are falling asleep, they want to play. Recently what we have to do is swaddle them, but them in their car seats, sit behind them and rock the car seats until they fall asleep. We then have to rock them every time they go through a sleep cycle, because they can't get through by themselves.

The thing is - they self-settle and go through sleep cycles on their own in their crib, on their stomachs. But in their car seats, the swing, or in their crib on their backs, they wake up. And we can't put them in their crib awake or they scream, and we can't move them to their crib until they're in a deep sleep, which now only happens between midnight and 3AM.

Ugh. I'm sorry this is so long. Thank you to anyone who has read this.

 

[AmyS]

Shelby - Wow, that sounds very exhausting! I'm not going to pretend to know what advice to offer, since I'm on here asking for myself currently (wonder week 26), but the ladies frequenting this thread have been very helpful! I'm sure you'll get some great tips!

 

[Shadowy Lady]

ok question for the ladies whose babies sttn or anyone else who might know:

Sofia has been waking up at 5:45 am the past three days because she's peed so much it has leaked into her sleepsuite. Is there a reason why she would pee so much all of the sudden? She always has a heavy diaper in the morning but never quite this much :/

Should I give her last bottle before bath perhaps? I just don't understand this.

 

[Aimee4311]

Shelby- I'm sorry this is such a tough time! The four month sleep regression is killer for those of us with one, two just seems like a special form of torture. I don't have any advice because I'm just figuring it all out myself, but a lot of the ladies on here have wonderful advice.

Have you talked to San Fran Shan to see how she coped with the 4 month regression with hers?

 

[ShelbyLC]

Shelby- I'm sorry this is such a tough time! The four month sleep regression is killer for those of us with one, two just seems like a special form of torture. I don't have any advice because I'm just figuring it all out myself, but a lot of the ladies on here have wonderful advice.

Have you talked to San Fran Shan to see how she coped with the 4 month regression with hers?

I have - she did a form of CC/CIO and that just doesn't work for us.

 

[rmsh1]

Thanks for all the tips ladies. I am off out but will reply in depth later

 

[polaris]

Shelby - my goodness, I just can't imagine coping with all that with two and managing to pump as well. You are doing AMAZING!!! Your old schedule looks great, it can feel so depressing when everything takes such a turn for the worse and multiply that by 1000% with two of them not sleeping properly! The only thing that I am wondering is whether they are ready for longer awake times now that they are a bit older? Maybe try 2 hours instead of 1.5? I wish I had more helpful advice for you - it sounds so stressful.

Shadowy - could you go up a size for a bit more absorbency?

Seaweed - how did bedtime go for you this evening, better I hope?

Aimee - yes it's normal to have the odd three nap day, same with the later nap transitions, just go with what your baby needs.

Clara is teething badly and was awake most of the evening crying. It's nearly 3 a.m. here and she's asleep but Thomas is awake and now I'm wide awake.

 

[ShelbyLC]

Shelby - my goodness, I just can't imagine coping with all that with two and managing to pump as well. You are doing AMAZING!!! Your old schedule looks great, it can feel so depressing when everything takes such a turn for the worse and multiply that by 1000% with two of them not sleeping properly! The only thing that I am wondering is whether they are ready for longer awake times now that they are a bit older? Maybe try 2 hours instead of 1.5? I wish I had more helpful advice for you - it sounds so stressful.

I follow their cues and put them down when they get tired. Since this sleep issue has started, they actually get tired after only 1 hour of awake time. If I keep them up longer than that, they are overtired and scream. The only exception to this being from 9:00 to 12:00/3:00. Then they can suddenly spend HOURS awake without getting tired!