Rape Culture - What do you think?

[Andypanda6570]

I forgot about this thread and haven't checked it in a long time, so my apologies if I am responding to old arguments that have been buried under the rug.

My post that I made previously where I said that many men are falsely accused of rape, and the responses citing that only 2% of reported rapes are false accusations - well let me tell you that is false. Do you know where the 2% figure comes from? A book, written by a feminist, in the 70's. Yeah.

https://www.returnofkings.com/2467/a-feminist-i-had-sex-with-spread-a-fabricated-rape-chart

It is actually much, much higher than that. There is no rape culture. It's all in your heads, ladies. Porn is not responsible for rape rates, nor is the patriarchy, or the media. If you want to know what a rape culture is like move to Africa. If you live in the US, the UK or any other affluent Western nation, you're talking out of your ass.

What a horrible post. You should be ashamed of yourself.. Very sad

 

[Wobbles]

An issue was brought to my attention. I don't think I need to say anything, you girls are (rightly) doing it for me. I'd not manage a reply without exploding.

 

[WelshOneEmma]

Jumping in a little late here, and may end up with an essay, but here's my two penneth worth!

I think that today's children are being hardened to violence and sex, through films etc and that this is part of the problem. Values and morals haven't just gone out the window, they have left the town! For example, many years ago having sex/children outside marriage was very much taboo (I realise it still happened but was hushed up) so women didn't have as much sexual freedom. Whilst I like our sexual freedom (I certainly had sex outside of marriage) I do think we ALL, men and women, need to take more responsibility for ourselves and the situation we put ourselves in. Yes, in the case of rape it is completely on the rapist, but if you are so drunk you have passed out, you need to accept you did put yourself in harms way. Did you deserve what happened? hell no. if you were robbed because you were comatose I would say you put yourself in that situation as well.

I also slightly disagree with the "if you are drunk it classes". I went to uni. I had drunken sex. I have had drunken sex with my husband. I don't class it as rape. I have once woken up during sex with a boyfriend - we were both fast asleep but one of us started having a sex dream and it appears we acted upon it. I don't personally class that as rape, but then we were in a relationship (I understand rape happens in relationships too).

Children having sex - very wrong, but again where do you draw the line? My husband was 12 when he first had sex, with his 11 year old girlfriend. Her parents found out and he never saw her again. Would that still be classed as rape as they both consented? Compare that with me being 16 when I lost my virginity (day after my birthday) with my then 26 year old boyfriend. It was legal, but was that age difference appropriate? We did things in the year we were together but he made a point of waiting until my 16th birthday. I also know of instance where a young bloke was out clubbing, was 19 i think, pulled a girl in the club. he found out the next day not only was she underage, she had disappeared from her foster care home overnight to go clubbing. she consented, she didn't complain but when the guy presented himself to police (they had been canvassing to find where she had been overnight), SS pressed charges and he was done for rape and put on the sex offenders register. Even the judge said she looked over 18. That to me was a wrong conviction and has ruined someones life.

Crying Rape - my biggest issue with this is when people are named before being convicted. I do believe in innocent before proven guilty but there is too much trial by media these days and too many vindictive women that think nothing of this which does not help real rape victims.

Rape Culture - I can say from experience that yes, the victim is often blamed. I am quite open about my past as I refuse point blank to be labelled a victim or accept I was in the wrong. I was with my older boyfriend for 8 years (had a brief break whilst I was at uni). Things weren't great towards the end (we were living together and he was very controlling) and I slept with my boss when we went away with work. I got home and left my boyfriend, moved into my own place and started seeing my boss. My ex at first was fine, then over the weeks started losing it a bit and one night took a load of pills with a load of wine. We had been together 8 years and I still cared about him, so when a week later he asked me to come and see him (i had refused last time and thats when he ended up in hospital) I agreed. I was trying not to see him as in the lead up I had been getting lots of letters, notes and he was sitting outside watching my flat (i found that out later!). When I arrived I re-iterated it was over. He wouldn't let me leave. He pulled out a rifle and threatened to shoot me. I was taken upstairs and tied up with ready made handcuffs. You can imagine what happened next. I was kept there for 12 hours. I was dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and had been out clubbing the night before so was not looking the greatest. Eventually he let me go. In the meantime (he had phoned the police, was a very bizarre situation) he had fired out the window at the police and made a number of threats to off himself and then off me (I was so pissed off by that point I told him to grow so balls and get on with it otherwise he was wasting my time, the police believe this is what shocked him into realising what he was doing). He eventually gave himself up too.

Now after all this, he pleaded not guilty (he had a number of charges) so I had to go to court. They dragged up my past (I had left him), the letters I had sent him when in uni and we were together (i was a horny teenager!), that he was an upstanding member of the community. I was told by a number of people I was "nothing but a whore who deserved everything she got". When it did go to court I spent 6 hours in the dock. My family were called as witnesses (bar my sister) so I couldnt sit with them. I had to sit in a waiting room with his friends and family, making threats. After 6 hours evidence he changed his plea (they said it was to save me heartache, yeah right) and got 18 months. He finished a degree inside, his house and job were kept opened for him. He still lives in the same house now.

Me, my parents have never gotten over it, especially my mum. It damaged my relationship with my mum (i ended up pregnant, when I told her she called me a stupid little slut who planned it, she only apologised for that 2 years ago). I lost my part time job in the local pub (I was a flirty character so it must have been my fault), i then left my main job as I had to move away from my home town due to the way people were (i dont go back very often). I lost my boyfriend as he couldnt cope with what happened (turned out my ex had seen him leave my place at times and had the rifle with him then, my then boyfriend had kids). It was also one of the most degrading processes of my life.

I am very lucky in that the police were brilliant. In fact I have since married a police officer so I must think well of them!

Do I think there is a rape culture? Most definitely. How we deal with it I'm not sure.

End of Essay!

 

[Sarahkka]

Jumping in a little late here, and may end up with an essay, but here's my two penneth worth!

I think that today's children are being hardened to violence and sex, through films etc and that this is part of the problem. Values and morals haven't just gone out the window, they have left the town! For example, many years ago having sex/children outside marriage was very much taboo (I realise it still happened but was hushed up) so women didn't have as much sexual freedom. Whilst I like our sexual freedom (I certainly had sex outside of marriage) I do think we ALL, men and women, need to take more responsibility for ourselves and the situation we put ourselves in. Yes, in the case of rape it is completely on the rapist, but if you are so drunk you have passed out, you need to accept you did put yourself in harms way. Did you deserve what happened? hell no. if you were robbed because you were comatose I would say you put yourself in that situation as well.

I also slightly disagree with the "if you are drunk it classes". I went to uni. I had drunken sex. I have had drunken sex with my husband. I don't class it as rape. I have once woken up during sex with a boyfriend - we were both fast asleep but one of us started having a sex dream and it appears we acted upon it. I don't personally class that as rape, but then we were in a relationship (I understand rape happens in relationships too).

Children having sex - very wrong, but again where do you draw the line? My husband was 12 when he first had sex, with his 11 year old girlfriend. Her parents found out and he never saw her again. Would that still be classed as rape as they both consented? Compare that with me being 16 when I lost my virginity (day after my birthday) with my then 26 year old boyfriend. It was legal, but was that age difference appropriate? We did things in the year we were together but he made a point of waiting until my 16th birthday. I also know of instance where a young bloke was out clubbing, was 19 i think, pulled a girl in the club. he found out the next day not only was she underage, she had disappeared from her foster care home overnight to go clubbing. she consented, she didn't complain but when the guy presented himself to police (they had been canvassing to find where she had been overnight), SS pressed charges and he was done for rape and put on the sex offenders register. Even the judge said she looked over 18. That to me was a wrong conviction and has ruined someones life.

Crying Rape - my biggest issue with this is when people are named before being convicted. I do believe in innocent before proven guilty but there is too much trial by media these days and too many vindictive women that think nothing of this which does not help real rape victims.

Rape Culture - I can say from experience that yes, the victim is often blamed. I am quite open about my past as I refuse point blank to be labelled a victim or accept I was in the wrong. I was with my older boyfriend for 8 years (had a brief break whilst I was at uni). Things weren't great towards the end (we were living together and he was very controlling) and I slept with my boss when we went away with work. I got home and left my boyfriend, moved into my own place and started seeing my boss. My ex at first was fine, then over the weeks started losing it a bit and one night took a load of pills with a load of wine. We had been together 8 years and I still cared about him, so when a week later he asked me to come and see him (i had refused last time and thats when he ended up in hospital) I agreed. I was trying not to see him as in the lead up I had been getting lots of letters, notes and he was sitting outside watching my flat (i found that out later!). When I arrived I re-iterated it was over. He wouldn't let me leave. He pulled out a rifle and threatened to shoot me. I was taken upstairs and tied up with ready made handcuffs. You can imagine what happened next. I was kept there for 12 hours. I was dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and had been out clubbing the night before so was not looking the greatest. Eventually he let me go. In the meantime (he had phoned the police, was a very bizarre situation) he had fired out the window at the police and made a number of threats to off himself and then off me (I was so pissed off by that point I told him to grow so balls and get on with it otherwise he was wasting my time, the police believe this is what shocked him into realising what he was doing). He eventually gave himself up too.

Now after all this, he pleaded not guilty (he had a number of charges) so I had to go to court. They dragged up my past (I had left him), the letters I had sent him when in uni and we were together (i was a horny teenager!), that he was an upstanding member of the community. I was told by a number of people I was "nothing but a whore who deserved everything she got". When it did go to court I spent 6 hours in the dock. My family were called as witnesses (bar my sister) so I couldnt sit with them. I had to sit in a waiting room with his friends and family, making threats. After 6 hours evidence he changed his plea (they said it was to save me heartache, yeah right) and got 18 months. He finished a degree inside, his house and job were kept opened for him. He still lives in the same house now.

Me, my parents have never gotten over it, especially my mum. It damaged my relationship with my mum (i ended up pregnant, when I told her she called me a stupid little slut who planned it, she only apologised for that 2 years ago). I lost my part time job in the local pub (I was a flirty character so it must have been my fault), i then left my main job as I had to move away from my home town due to the way people were (i dont go back very often). I lost my boyfriend as he couldnt cope with what happened (turned out my ex had seen him leave my place at times and had the rifle with him then, my then boyfriend had kids). It was also one of the most degrading processes of my life.

I am very lucky in that the police were brilliant. In fact I have since married a police officer so I must think well of them!

Do I think there is a rape culture? Most definitely. How we deal with it I'm not sure.

End of Essay!

While you sound amazing and strong now, my god! What a hell of an ordeal you had to go through. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[jessicaR4bbit]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies. For what it is worth, the article I linked to is just one article that dissects the source of the 2% myth, where I could link to others - including wikipedia which has sources listed below the article anyway. I find it ironic that I am blasted for linking to an article that dispels the 2% myth while if I linked to wikipedia with the same information I'd still be blasted, yet if I were on the opposing side of the fence linking to wiki to uphold the 2% myth I'd be lauded as an educated feminist and given a thumbs up. Anyway, the 2% falsely reported rape accusations statistic comes from the FBI, right? (I wonder how many of you know that). Well here is another piece of information straight from that horse's mouth:

https://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

(From the link)

According to the FBI, about 95,000 forcible rapes were reported in 2004.8 Based on the statements and studies cited above, some 47,000 American men are falsely accused of rape each year. These men are disproportionately African-American.9

Some of these men are wrongly convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned. Even if there is no conviction, a false allegation of rape can “emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person.”10

Since when does "yeah" constitute the summary of an argument?

It doesn't. My use of 'yeah' in that context was a colloquialism. The source is not a credited source because it is derived from a feminist propaganda book. Can I start using 'American Psycho' by Bret Easton Ellis as a factual source to push my misogynist agenda now? Here is the 2% false accusations source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Brownmiller

I challenge any woman here to show me a study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the “two percent false rape complaint” thesis. If you're going to throw a statistic into a debate, you better had back it up with facts to be taken seriously. Since I provided a link above, I will do so again from separate sources which all dispel this myth with data that concludes otherwise:

https://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
https://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/maysession/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8135653

Rape culture is a concept coined by a new feminist wave that attempts to conflate one issue (that of incidence of rape) with several other cultural issues and none are all inextricably linked to one another. Our culture wasn't made for raping, it was made for lots of other things and it can also be applied to things that rapists do and how we react to them. Like everything else we do we don't always define a unique culture for each one. Yes we have terms for subset cultures such as drinking culture and food culture but their associations have direct relationships unlike rape culture. We treat rape culture with contempt against men as it seems we've elevated the cause of rape to unfounded heights, from male privilege, the patriarchy, porn, but these do not cause 'rape'. Rape is rape. Women rape men, they rape other women, men rape men and women, and it happens all over the world. We don't blame our sense of entitlement for eating and drinking too much, or our objectification of food. Rape culture and it's associations lump diverse concepts together that have been long present in feminist thinking under one behavioral banner. And for what it's worth, I am a feminist, but I don't liken my feminist ideals to that of misandry attempting to label it as progressive or conducive to equality. Demonizing one sex for a non-gender bias human behavior is not espousing equality, in my opinion - yet this seems to be an acceptable opinion for modern feminists and it angers me. This use of a rape culture meme is essentially a form of cultural coercion. If you do what you are told you help end rape. If you don't you enable rape (according to the feminists). Rape culture as it's being used is only a useful concept if you are too lazy to recognize the larger patterns of common human behavior underlying it and wish to consolidate many different things to make seeding public outrage that much easier. Public outrage is an activist's moral currency and their rhetoric is often structured to maximize it. Rape culture is an effective strategy as it shifts blame away from the rapist themselves and onto the society and individuals for somehow creating a misogynistic environment in which rape was the resulted action of premeditated conditioning. It is entirely disingenuous. If you are offended by my views, I won't apologize.

*EDIT* I want to add this to my reply. I find the idea that because I have a son I must raise him extra dilligently to respect people because he's more likely to be a rapist disgustingly sexist. Both parents have the duty to raise children that behave in a way that is respectable to others. I would not raise my son any differently than I would raise my daughter in that regard. If my son grew up to be a rapist, that would be my failing as a parent, not a failing of society at large.

 

[Noelle610]

Jessica, there's a lot in your post and my head is spinning. You're a good writer, so I can't address it all Anyway, I'm not offended by your opinion - of course you are entitled to it and to express it freely.

I'm willing to concede that there's room for debate on the 2% statistic (and yes, I knew it came from the FBI - sociology major here, since I couldn't commit to a real major LOL).

That aside, I disagree with a few of your key points. Primarily, I DO believe that cultural influences largely influences how we indulge - namely with your prime examples of food and alcohol. I can't speak to much of the western world, but in the United States we certainly have a culture of indulgence and addiction. All you have to do is stand in line at your local Starbucks at 6am and observe - it's like being in a crack house. Do I think cultural influences cancel out individual responsibility? Of course not. Ultimately, we as individuals are responsible for our choices and the direction of our lives. But cultural influences - be it attitudes toward food, alcohol, material possessions, children or rape - shape us from a young age. To ignore these influences would simply not be realistic. Yes, we have choice, but we are also made up of our experiences.

To ascertain that an individual's choices are merely a result of their own decisions and the parenting they received is incorrect, in my opinion. What about sociopaths? They exist. They have no empathy, but not because they weren't held as children. What about victims of trauma? They certainly see the world is a different light, but often night because they didn't feel secure as children. I think you're giving parents way too much credit. We only have so much control. We can do our best, but our children our individuals that will have their own experiences and their own struggles.

I very much agree with your last point - raising your child - male or female - to respect others is key and it's at the core of my parenting beliefs.

 

[Tiff]

Jessica, there's a lot in your post and my head is spinning. You're a good writer, so I can't address it all Anyway, I'm not offended by your opinion - of course you are entitled to it and to express it freely.

I'm willing to concede that there's room for debate on the 2% statistic (and yes, I knew it came from the FBI - sociology major here, since I couldn't commit to a real major LOL).

That aside, I disagree with a few of your key points. Primarily, I DO believe that cultural influences largely influences how we indulge - namely with your prime examples of food and alcohol. I can't speak to much of the western world, but in the United States we certainly have a culture of indulgence and addiction. All you have to do is stand in line at your local Starbucks at 6am and observe - it's like being in a crack house. Do I think cultural influences cancel out individual responsibility? Of course not. Ultimately, we as individuals are responsible for our choices and the direction of our lives. But cultural influences - be it attitudes toward food, alcohol, material possessions, children or rape - shape us from a young age. To ignore these influences would simply not be realistic. Yes, we have choice, but we are also made up of our experiences.

To ascertain that an individual's choices are merely a result of their own decisions and the parenting they received is incorrect, in my opinion. What about sociopaths? They exist. They have no empathy, but not because they weren't held as children. What about victims of trauma? They certainly see the world is a different light, but often night because they didn't feel secure as children. I think you're giving parents way too much credit. We only have so much control. We can do our best, but our children our individuals that will have their own experiences and their own struggles.

I very much agree with your last point - raising your child - male or female - to respect others is key and it's at the core of my parenting beliefs.

Well said! Of course there are causes where a childhood can be blamed for how a person turns out... but the parents of the people who do turn out to do really nasty stuff are oftentimes just has surprised and horrified as the rest of us.

At some point, people have to stop blaming their parents for how they act... especially as an adult. Your life is what you make it and there are people who have overcome far worse in their own lives and do not grow up to be sociopaths.


Personally I don't think that the intent of the posts were to say that as a mother of a son you have to raise your son not to be a rapist. Respect is key and that respect works for both genders be it male or female.

 

[jessicaR4bbit]

I'm willing to concede that there's room for debate on the 2% statistic (and yes, I knew it came from the FBI - sociology major here, since I couldn't commit to a real major LOL).

Ah, well that's a good thing, because most people I speak to do not know where 2% comes from. It's become so ingrained that we forget to question it. I can safely say you're the only one who knows the source. What happens when you fact check and follow the trail is that you're essentially led to - as I said - a 1970's feminist propaganda book that has a small blurb within it that posits the 'false rape accusations are a myth' peddled by men when the reality is more people falsely accuse of rape than we are willing to admit. The evidence speaks for itself.

That aside, I disagree with a few of your key points. Primarily, I DO believe that cultural influences largely influences how we indulge - namely with your prime examples of food and alcohol.

Fair enough, but as I said in my reply these respective cultures have direct causality that we can trace with certainty as to why they occur. Why do people become obese or alcoholics? We know that obesity can be caused by overeating, lack of exercise and to some extent genetic factors (although these are rarer). We know that alcoholism is genetically predisposed and influenced by environment. We don't know that rape is caused by rape culture, which is my entire point. What do we think happened before we had media and large populations living as a single entity? Men and women have always raped and it is not a cultural thing. It is the same argument as 'video games cause violence'. Correlation does not imply causation which is what proponents of the rape culture suggest.

Ultimately, we as individuals are responsible for our choices and the direction of our lives. But cultural influences - be it attitudes toward food, alcohol, material possessions, children or rape - shape us from a young age. To ignore these influences would simply not be realistic. Yes, we have choice, but we are also made up of our experiences.

And this is where I sincerely doubt the legitimacy of a rape culture in a country like the US, where we have anti-rape laws, where a man accused of rape can stand to serve years in prison and a mere rape accusation can leave a person publicly shamed and lose their livelihoods in such an ordeal. In the kind of culture we live in, rape is not rewarded but heavily punished and it is for this reason (among others) that we simply cannot claim to live in one. Porn doesn't cause rape - if that were the case every woman and man who ever watched porn would be out raping by now, and not all porn objectifies women. The media doesn't cause rape - first of all such a statement as this is so broad and nonspecific that it's basically rendered negligible. Women have always been sexualized due to the fact that we are sexual creatures. It's why women wear push-up bras, low cut tops, short skirts, figure hugging clothes and makeup. We are biologically driven to exhibit signs of maturation and readiness for sex when we come of age. People rape because people rape. It's what we do. If anyone was to research the history of rape and what causes it this is clear to see. Cultural conditioning do not breed rapists and if that were the case, then why has this been happening since the dawn of man?

To ascertain that an individual's choices are merely a result of their own decisions and the parenting they received is incorrect, in my opinion. What about sociopaths? They exist. They have no empathy, but not because they weren't held as children. What about victims of trauma? They certainly see the world is a different light, but often night because they didn't feel secure as children. I think you're giving parents way too much credit. We only have so much control. We can do our best, but our children our individuals that will have their own experiences and their own struggles.

Yes you are correct here, I should have added in my reply that it is also down to the individual but it goes without saying really, so I accept that.

Personally I don't think that the intent of the posts were to say that as a mother of a son you have to raise your son not to be a rapist. Respect is key and that respect works for both genders be it male or female.

This was a remark to a post made previously in the thread, I'll go dig it up and put it here.

I agree that victim-blaming is ALWAYS wrong in such cases, but while I'm going to teach my son to respect women's boundaries, I am also going to teach both my children, when DD comes along, not to get so drunk that you either don't know what you're doing or are not in any position to protect yourself. I don't think it's victim-blaming to advise young people never to get into a situation in which they aren't in control.

Why should only men be taught to respect women's boundaries and not equal emphasis is placed on women respecting men's boundaries? This is what frustrates the living daylights out of me. Women rape too. A LOT of women rape. In fact just about as many women rape and sexually assault men as men do to women. I can provide links to studies of this, too, if anyone thinks I'm bullshitting.

 

[Noelle610]

That aside, I disagree with a few of your key points. Primarily, I DO believe that cultural influences largely influences how we indulge - namely with your prime examples of food and alcohol.

Fair enough, but as I said in my reply these respective cultures have direct causality that we can trace with certainty as to why they occur. Why do people become obese or alcoholics? We know that obesity can be caused by overeating, lack of exercise and to some extent genetic factors (although these are rarer). We know that alcoholism is genetically predisposed and influenced by environment. We don't know that rape is caused by rape culture, which is my entire point. What do we think happened before we had media and large populations living as a single entity? Men and women have always raped and it is not a cultural thing. It is the same argument as 'video games cause violence'. Correlation does not imply causation which is what proponents of the rape culture suggest.

Using alcoholism as an example - we don't really know for sure that genetic factors influence one's predisposition to alcoholism, but we can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that this is likely the case. But it's still just a theory. There's still quite a bit of debate in the addiction world on how addiction begins - is it a disease? Is it merely individual choice in using a substance to excess? I imagine it's likely a combination of these factors. I feel the same about rape. Obviously, that like alcoholism, it's not a new phenomenon. I do think it's fair to say, however, that one's disposition to sexual assault can be partly inheriant and partly culturally influenced. I think it goes back to the how rape is defined. If you're talking about the very specific type of rape that's demonized by our society - violent stranger rape - no, those perpetrators are not likely influenced by our culture. But what if we're talking about date rape? A man raping a woman who is literally unconscious? There are television shows and movies that make light of this situation. Isn't it fair to assume that a man who isn't deviant in other ways may be influenced to believe this type of rape is acceptable because of our cultural leanings?

Ultimately, we as individuals are responsible for our choices and the direction of our lives. But cultural influences - be it attitudes toward food, alcohol, material possessions, children or rape - shape us from a young age. To ignore these influences would simply not be realistic. Yes, we have choice, but we are also made up of our experiences.

And this is where I sincerely doubt the legitimacy of a rape culture in a country like the US, where we have anti-rape laws, where a man accused of rape can stand to serve years in prison and a mere rape accusation can leave a person publicly shamed and lose their livelihoods in such an ordeal. In the kind of culture we live in, rape is not rewarded but heavily punished and it is for this reason (among others) that we simply cannot claim to live in one. Porn doesn't cause rape - if that were the case every woman and man who ever watched porn would be out raping by now, and not all porn objectifies women. The media doesn't cause rape - first of all such a statement as this is so broad and nonspecific that it's basically rendered negligible. Women have always been sexualized due to the fact that we are sexual creatures. It's why women wear push-up bras, low cut tops, short skirts, figure hugging clothes and makeup. We are biologically driven to exhibit signs of maturation and readiness for sex when we come of age. People rape because people rape. It's what we do. If anyone was to research the history of rape and what causes it this is clear to see. Cultural conditioning do not breed rapists and if that were the case, then why has this been happening since the dawn of man?

As I stated above - all of this is true for one very specific type of rape. But not for other types of rape. Date rape. Guy (or girl) who rapes an unconscious woman. Guy (or girl) who takes advantage of a mintor. Guy (or girl) who continues having sex with a partner who revokes consent. All of these situations are rape, and no less so than violent rape by a stranger. Obviously I agree with you that the media doesn't cause rape - as you mentioned, it's been in existance since the dawn of time. But the way in which we portray sexual situations in which one partner is the aggressor - in a way that's light or commical - are concerning. I used the example of "The 40 Year Old Virgin" originally, where Steve Carrel's friends are encouraging him to have sex with a girl who is clearly too intoxicated to drive and throwing up. It's a great example of how certain types of rape are culturally acceptable.

 

[Sarahkka]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies..

Jessicar4bbit, all of us would have enjoyed debating this topic with you in a respectful manner. You chose to dismiss the multiple personal stories of violation and sexual assault that were shared here with an incredibly rude "it's all in your head" and "you're talking out of your ass". So you don't get to hide behind some intellectual bravado, as though it was your argument that was the reason so many of us reacted to your previous post.
It's not your dissenting opinion that offends. It is your bad manners and your insensitivity.
It's unfortunate, as I think you could have contributed a lot to an interesting and intellectually stimulating debate. It's normal to get passionate about issues, but you chose to go well beyond that and aimed for rude and hurtful. Callously and quite unnecessarily so.
Really not cool.

 

[jessicaR4bbit]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies..

Jessicar4bbit, all of us would have enjoyed debating this topic with you in a respectful manner. You chose to dismiss the multiple personal stories of violation and sexual assault that were shared here with an incredibly rude "it's all in your head" and "you're talking out of your ass". So you don't get to hide behind some intellectual bravado, as though it was your argument that was the reason so many of us reacted to your previous post.
It's not your dissenting opinion that offends. It is your bad manners and your insensitivity.
It's unfortunate, as I think you could have contributed a lot to an interesting and intellectually stimulating debate. It's normal to get passionate about issues, but you chose to go well beyond that and aimed for rude and hurtful. Callously and quite unnecessarily so.
Really not cool.

I automatically discount anecdotal evidence in a debate and that is an intellectually honest thing to do. I disagree with the notion that because a woman professes she has been raped on a debate thread, then I must proceed with tact and caution so as to avoid hurting their feelings. This is never how I have debated and in any other environment - be it on the internet or in a professional setting - personal anecdotes count for nothing. They hold no weight. I could claim right now that I was raped and I believe there is a rape culture (as has been done on this thread) but what does that contribute to anything? The rude remark of 'talking out of your asses' is what really pressed people here. Sure, I could have left that out to appear more polite but it was my choice not to as this is how I speak in debates. I feel if I came on here and spouted opinion after 'insulting' opinion without providing links to studies or evidence then I would understand how that would be counter-productive to a debate but I did just the opposite. Anyway, TL;DR: I am very sorry that some women were raped and it is terrible when it happens, but I don't care about that in a debate about rape culture.

*EDIT* I'll respond to those who replied to me soon, have errands to run and lawns to mow but I'll be back.

 

[Piper84]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies..

Jessicar4bbit, all of us would have enjoyed debating this topic with you in a respectful manner. You chose to dismiss the multiple personal stories of violation and sexual assault that were shared here with an incredibly rude "it's all in your head" and "you're talking out of your ass". So you don't get to hide behind some intellectual bravado, as though it was your argument that was the reason so many of us reacted to your previous post.
It's not your dissenting opinion that offends. It is your bad manners and your insensitivity.
It's unfortunate, as I think you could have contributed a lot to an interesting and intellectually stimulating debate. It's normal to get passionate about issues, but you chose to go well beyond that and aimed for rude and hurtful. Callously and quite unnecessarily so.
Really not cool.

I automatically discount anecdotal evidence in a debate and that is an intellectually honest thing to do. I disagree with the notion that because a woman professes she has been raped on a debate thread, then I must proceed with tact and caution so as to avoid hurting their feelings. This is never how I have debated and in any other environment - be it on the internet or in a professional setting - personal anecdotes count for nothing. They hold no weight. I could claim right now that I was raped and I believe there is a rape culture (as has been done on this thread) but what does that contribute to anything? The rude remark of 'talking out of your asses' is what really pressed people here. Sure, I could have left that out to appear more polite but it was my choice not to as this is how I speak in debates. I feel if I came on here and spouted opinion after 'insulting' opinion without providing links to studies or evidence then I would understand how that would be counter-productive to a debate but I did just the opposite. Anyway, TL;DR: I am very sorry that some women were raped and it is terrible when it happens, but I don't care about that in a debate about rape culture.

*EDIT* I'll respond to those who replied to me soon, have errands to run and lawns to mow but I'll be back.

And I thought I had an abrasive writing style.

When enough anecdotal evidence is in evidence, it becomes empirical, so don't be too quick to lecture us on the workings of proper debating, especially when you get hysterical at the first sign of disagreement.

Your argument will be a joke until you stop using the qualifier "A LOT of women rape. In fact just about as many women rape and sexually assault men as men do to women." - and therefore there is no such thing as rape culture.

Also:

I can provide links to studies of this, too, if anyone thinks I'm bullshitting.

LOL, did you use this line in your dissertation?

 

[Noelle610]

I automatically discount anecdotal evidence in a debate and that is an intellectually honest thing to do. I disagree with the notion that because a woman professes she has been raped on a debate thread, then I must proceed with tact and caution so as to avoid hurting their feelings.

I know you don't mean any harm, Jessica, and to an extend I agree with you that anecdotal evidence in a debate often irrelevent.

However, I don't think my assertion that I was sexually assualted is totally irrelevent to discussing rape culture because the way in which I was treated after the fact was appalling and a reflection of the culture at work.

Anyway, I'm not offended by anything you've written. I gave up on being sensitive on this topic a long time ago, but I'll save you the details because you're not interested in anecdotal evidence. In my mind, we're not only having an academic discussion, but a conversation based on the nature of this site.

I don't think you should proceed with caution on conversations about sensitive topics - i.e. rape, child abuse, eating disorders, whatever - beccause it's academically sound, but because it's the compassionate. People have suffered. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me. I'm one of many, many, many women who have had this experience and I don't relish being a victim. But I do believe my experience adds substance to our conversation.

 

[Andypanda6570]

I automatically discount anecdotal evidence in a debate and that is an intellectually honest thing to do. I disagree with the notion that because a woman professes she has been raped on a debate thread, then I must proceed with tact and caution so as to avoid hurting their feelings.

I know you don't mean any harm, Jessica, and to an extend I agree with you that anecdotal evidence in a debate often irrelevent.

However, I don't think my assertion that I was sexually assualted is totally irrelevent to discussing rape culture because the way in which I was treated after the fact was appalling and a reflection of the culture at work.

Anyway, I'm not offended by anything you've written. I gave up on being sensitive on this topic a long time ago, but I'll save you the details because you're not interested in anecdotal evidence. In my mind, we're not only having an academic discussion, but a conversation based on the nature of this site.

I don't think you should proceed with caution on conversations about sensitive topics - i.e. rape, child abuse, eating disorders, whatever - beccause it's academically sound, but because it's the compassionate. People have suffered. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me. I'm one of many, many, many women who have had this experience and I don't relish being a victim. But I do believe my experience adds substance to our conversation.

 

[xemmax]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies..

Jessicar4bbit, all of us would have enjoyed debating this topic with you in a respectful manner. You chose to dismiss the multiple personal stories of violation and sexual assault that were shared here with an incredibly rude "it's all in your head" and "you're talking out of your ass". So you don't get to hide behind some intellectual bravado, as though it was your argument that was the reason so many of us reacted to your previous post.
It's not your dissenting opinion that offends. It is your bad manners and your insensitivity.
It's unfortunate, as I think you could have contributed a lot to an interesting and intellectually stimulating debate. It's normal to get passionate about issues, but you chose to go well beyond that and aimed for rude and hurtful. Callously and quite unnecessarily so.
Really not cool.

I automatically discount anecdotal evidence in a debate and that is an intellectually honest thing to do. I disagree with the notion that because a woman professes she has been raped on a debate thread, then I must proceed with tact and caution so as to avoid hurting their feelings. This is never how I have debated and in any other environment - be it on the internet or in a professional setting - personal anecdotes count for nothing. They hold no weight. I could claim right now that I was raped and I believe there is a rape culture (as has been done on this thread) but what does that contribute to anything? The rude remark of 'talking out of your asses' is what really pressed people here. Sure, I could have left that out to appear more polite but it was my choice not to as this is how I speak in debates. I feel if I came on here and spouted opinion after 'insulting' opinion without providing links to studies or evidence then I would understand how that would be counter-productive to a debate but I did just the opposite. Anyway, TL;DR: I am very sorry that some women were raped and it is terrible when it happens, but I don't care about that in a debate about rape culture.

*EDIT* I'll respond to those who replied to me soon, have errands to run and lawns to mow but I'll be back.

May I ask in what professional setting may that kind of remark be considered permissible, acceptable or beneficial to an "intellectual debate"? I'm not sure where you usually debate but using inflammatory, value-laden statements like that while trying to negate the importance of anecdotal evidence and promote rational, objective discussion is pretty ludicrous.

 

[Noelle610]

I wanted to add the rape culture isn't just about the act of rape - it's about how it's preceived, how we react to it and how we define it. It's a much larger conversation.

 

[SerenityNow]

....Anyway, the 2% falsely reported rape accusations statistic comes from the FBI, right? (I wonder how many of you know that). Well here is another piece of information straight from that horse's mouth:

https://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

(From the link)

According to the FBI, about 95,000 forcible rapes were reported in 2004.8 Based on the statements and studies cited above, some 47,000 American men are falsely accused of rape each year. These men are disproportionately African-American.9

Some of these men are wrongly convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned. Even if there is no conviction, a false allegation of rape can “emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person.”10

This is a misuse of statistics. The author of the website is extrapolating that number from some very small studies (1000 cases or fewer over a period of many years) in which the percentage of victims who later recant is in the range of 41-60%.

The author would have done well to read their citations more closely for as "forensicexaminer.com" put it

Unfortunately, like the two studies presented here, the empirical studies that exist on the frequency of false rape allegations are sparse in number and have notable limitations. Small sample sizes and non-representative samples preclude generalizability.

I'd give you high marks for rhetoric but you haven't researched this with any degree of rigor.

 

[NoodleSnack]

Well I'm not upset or ashamed that I have offended people here, that comes as part of the package in having a dissenting opinion. I assumed most would be shocked and appalled by my replies. For what it is worth, the article I linked to is just one article that dissects the source of the 2% myth, where I could link to others - including wikipedia which has sources listed below the article anyway. I find it ironic that I am blasted for linking to an article that dispels the 2% myth while if I linked to wikipedia with the same information I'd still be blasted, yet if I were on the opposing side of the fence linking to wiki to uphold the 2% myth I'd be lauded as an educated feminist and given a thumbs up. Anyway, the 2% falsely reported rape accusations statistic comes from the FBI, right? (I wonder how many of you know that). Well here is another piece of information straight from that horse's mouth:

https://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

(From the link)

According to the FBI, about 95,000 forcible rapes were reported in 2004.8 Based on the statements and studies cited above, some 47,000 American men are falsely accused of rape each year. These men are disproportionately African-American.9

Some of these men are wrongly convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned. Even if there is no conviction, a false allegation of rape can “emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person.”10

That information is not "straight from the horse mouth", it's a very immaturist way to treat statistics from a very bias site. I would say it's either intentionally misleading or done by someone who doesn't know how to deal with statistics properly. I don't get to use a few papers that is bias towards my conclusion, average their numbers and then claim so and so number of men are victims of false accusation of rape. If 47000 men a year are falsely accused, please find me the 47000 prosecuted cases a year of false reporting of rape.

In the mean time, please get off your high horse. You make yourself sound like a prosecuted hero holding the torch for the truth against us first-world ignorant feminist (I currently live in NZ, I must be talking out of my ass too?), but in actual fact, you come off as childish and belligerent. You were disrespectful and rude, you made a lot of assumptions that you knew nothing about and then you beat your chest and say you aren't ashamed to offend people who shared their personal story. Well, shame on you anyway.

Since when does "yeah" constitute the summary of an argument?

It doesn't. My use of 'yeah' in that context was a colloquialism. The source is not a credited source because it is derived from a feminist propaganda book. Can I start using 'American Psycho' by Bret Easton Ellis as a factual source to push my misogynist agenda now? Here is the 2% false accusations source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Brownmiller

I challenge any woman here to show me a study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the “two percent false rape complaint” thesis. If you're going to throw a statistic into a debate, you better had back it up with facts to be taken seriously. Since I provided a link above, I will do so again from separate sources which all dispel this myth with data that concludes otherwise:

https://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
https://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/maysession/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8135653

You know using different sites that quote the same study does not constitute different sources right?

And challenge accepted:

Despite reforms intended to increase the number of rape investigations that proceed to prosecution, the study found that suspects were charged in only 15 percent of the 850 reported rapes. Rape complaints were subsequently withdrawn in 15.1 percent of the cases, and 46.4 percent of the complaints resulted in "no further police action." For the cases in which complaints were withdrawn, no statistically reliable profile of case characteristics could be determined; however, when complaints were withdrawn, suspects were more likely to be current or former partners of the complainant. Cases that resulted in "no further police action" were more likely to involve younger victims, victims who were acquainted with or had a cursory relationship with the suspect, and victims who had consumed alcohol or other drugs near the time of the offense. Of the 850 cases, 21.3 percent were "still ongoing" or their status could not be determined from the case records. Only a small percentage of cases (2.1 percent) were designated by police (me: Please learn what "from the horse's mouth" means) as false. Twenty-six percent of the cases involved victims with a psychiatric disability or mental health issue. Charges were more likely to be brought when the rape victim was male (even though the overwhelming majority of complainants were female); had been physically injured; had been medically examined; was not under the influence of alcohol or other drugs at the time of the offense; was subjected to other offenses in the course of the rape; and when the suspect was known to police for previous sexual offenses.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abstractdb/AbstractDBDetails.aspx?id=243182

Recently in the news in England:

This report outlines the key findings from the review of those cases and the
steps that we plan to take. Importantly, what it shows is that charges brought for perverting the course of justice or wasting police time for an allegedly false allegation of rape or domestic violence need to be considered in the context of the total number of prosecutions brought for those offences. In the period of the review, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence2. During the same period there were 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, 6 for making false allegation of domestic violence and 3 for making false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

Furthermore, the report shows that a significant number of these cases
involved young, often vulnerable people. About half of the cases involved
people aged 21 years old and under, and some involved people with mental
health difficulties. In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false
report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not
the one which he or she had reported.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf

Rape culture is a concept coined by a new feminist wave that attempts to conflate one issue (that of incidence of rape) with several other cultural issues and none are all inextricably linked to one another. Our culture wasn't made for raping, it was made for lots of other things and it can also be applied to things that rapists do and how we react to them. Like everything else we do we don't always define a unique culture for each one. Yes we have terms for subset cultures such as drinking culture and food culture but their associations have direct relationships unlike rape culture. We treat rape culture with contempt against men as it seems we've elevated the cause of rape to unfounded heights, from male privilege, the patriarchy, porn, but these do not cause 'rape'. Rape is rape. Women rape men, they rape other women, men rape men and women, and it happens all over the world. We don't blame our sense of entitlement for eating and drinking too much, or our objectification of food. Rape culture and it's associations lump diverse concepts together that have been long present in feminist thinking under one behavioral banner. And for what it's worth, I am a feminist, but I don't liken my feminist ideals to that of misandry attempting to label it as progressive or conducive to equality. Demonizing one sex for a non-gender bias human behavior is not espousing equality, in my opinion - yet this seems to be an acceptable opinion for modern feminists and it angers me. This use of a rape culture meme is essentially a form of cultural coercion. If you do what you are told you help end rape. If you don't you enable rape (according to the feminists). Rape culture as it's being used is only a useful concept if you are too lazy to recognize the larger patterns of common human behavior underlying it and wish to consolidate many different things to make seeding public outrage that much easier. Public outrage is an activist's moral currency and their rhetoric is often structured to maximize it. Rape culture is an effective strategy as it shifts blame away from the rapist themselves and onto the society and individuals for somehow creating a misogynistic environment in which rape was the resulted action of premeditated conditioning. It is entirely disingenuous. If you are offended by my views, I won't apologize.

*EDIT* I want to add this to my reply. I find the idea that because I have a son I must raise him extra dilligently to respect people because he's more likely to be a rapist disgustingly sexist. Both parents have the duty to raise children that behave in a way that is respectable to others. I would not raise my son any differently than I would raise my daughter in that regard. If my son grew up to be a rapist, that would be my failing as a parent, not a failing of society at large.

I think you've convinced yourself that your views are out there and show great insights which many of us are unaware of such that it causes us to be "offended" or "appalled" by them. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are pretty common, and not so much offensive as wrong minded. What's offensive is how you say it, not what you said.

I'm actually more amused by the incoherent essay you wrote here. They seem like concepts you just string together. I'm not sure you even understand what we are talking about when we say "rape culture". How is "this use of a rape culture meme is essentially a form of cultural coercion"? What does it have to do with "doing what you are told you help end rape. If you don't you enable rape"? What do you think you are being told to do that you consider to be misandry? For your information, when nearly 99% of the offenders are male, that is not a "non-gender bias human behavior", it is the very definition of gender bias. To be blind to that fact is not "equality", it's just being blind to fact.

When we talk about "rape culture", we aren't talking about "premeditated conditioning" (whatever you meant by that), we are talking about a culture where most rape victims still feel unable to report what has been done to them (no matter how you slice the numbers, the number of victims who fail to report are way more than people who make false accusation << that's what people have been saying), a culture that puts the spot light on the victim's behaviour, dresses etc, a culture that perpetuates the idea that false reporting of rape is more of a problem than the under-reporting of rape thereby casting suspicions on anyone who do report (when in fact, even if we are generous and use the study you linked, a rape report is still more likely to be not "false"), a culture that refuses to regconise that rape is a big problem (despite the lowest estimates of the prevalence rate being 10% but likely much higher) because hey, it's not as bad as South Africa. In other words, rape culture is not just about men, it's about both men and women, it's about every day people like you being callous to and misinformed about rape victims.

Another thing about statistics you need to understand, just because most rapists are male doesn't mean that most men are rapists. Most men aren't rapist. So raise your son or your daughter however you like, all else being the same, he's more likely to be a rapist than your daughter, but he's still more likely to be not a rapist.

With regards to your next post about discounting anecdotal evidence and your "debating" style. There's a vast difference between

1. I'm sorry you went through what you went through but the statistics do not support this anecdotal evidence.

and

2. It's a myth (because one site I linked to says so), you're talking out of your ass (because I say so), I don't care about your experience regarding rape in a debate about rape culture.

I highly doubt you have engaged in a lot of "intellectually honest" debates (arguing with your friends aren't the same thing), if you have, you would have learnt that being rude and caustically dismissing other's personal experience of such a hurtful thing is a sure way to lose your audience. You would have learned to do your research more carefully, instead of relying on different sites you trawled from google all based on the same studies without even a pretense to unbiasness.

 

[Sarahkka]

Noodlesnack - I'd want you in my corner anyday!

 

[Yammas]

I know that mine is probably a controversial view but I do feel that if a woman is so drunk she cant stand up and something happens to her then she is partly responsible because had she not got into such a state she wouldnt have put herself at risk or been more able to fight off her attacker.

I know its a horrible thing to happen and noone deserves it or was asking for it but I do feel that you have to take responsibility for yourself and keeping yourself safe. I know that this is a minority of cases but this is the scenario that the media always portrays so until light is shed on the more common circumstances I dont think 'rape culture' will change