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[Lightworker]

You know though, just as an aside, if this family are American, are people lobbying the american government to change the way the law works to prevent the dissemination of material that is clearly abusive to children?

I know America has long been reluctant to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which would effectively resolve this problem by banning it outright, but it seems abit hypocritical given that America spends quite abit of time going on about promoting human rights globally, and expressing horror at the inequities and brutality experienced by children in worse-off countries, whereas the American system allows for the perpetuation of systematic abuse to go on, without any repercussions.

Just a thought.

 

[ahcigar1]

Freedom of Speech, hun. They basically advocate the concept of "spare the rod, spoil the child" and say that children need daily beatings. If they are self-publishing, there is nothing the government can do to stop it. However, stores can choose not to stock it and that's what a lot of people are pushing for.

That is horrible. How can anyone see this information as something to follow and good for the child. Just shows how little many people think for themselves.

 

[cherryglitter]

the comments on their FB page really worry me too!!
this is revolting and it actually makes me feel sick.
wish there was more we could do.

what a pair of fucked up people!

 

[cherryglitter]

"Debi loves to scare people. She never tires of finding ways to startle folks. One of her favorite and most effective ways is to pound on the bathroom door when she sees the light on."


sounds about right, nutcase.

 

[aragornlover8]

You know though, just as an aside, if this family are American, are people lobbying the american government to change the way the law works to prevent the dissemination of material that is clearly abusive to children?

I know America has long been reluctant to sign the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which would effectively resolve this problem by banning it outright, but it seems abit hypocritical given that America spends quite abit of time going on about promoting human rights globally, and expressing horror at the inequities and brutality experienced by children in worse-off countries, whereas the American system allows for the perpetuation of systematic abuse to go on, without any repercussions.

Just a thought.

A lot of this boils down to culture, I think. A lot of American families don't see anything wrong with corporal punishment; so there's a disconnect, rather realistic or not, between spanking/swatting and abuse. Like the Pearls have mentioned, these methods of corporal punishment don't leave marks. Beatings can only be classified as abuse by DSS if there are visible marks that can be identified by some sort of medical professional. So it only makes sense that a majority of Americans wouldn't see spanking anywhere near the category of what children go through in some developing countries around the world.

That's not to say that there aren't a growing number of the population, especially psychologists, that see corporal punishment as a very potential danger to children. The main obstacle is that this way of thinking, especially in America, is really only one generation removed. My parents spanked my siblings (didn't spank me; I must have been an angel? ). Their parents spanked/punished them. My husband was spanked by his mother. It's really only people my age and around my age that even debate corporal punishment as a necessary reality. This has been my experience, anyway.

Furthermore, I think actually making corporal punishment illegal outright, with little precedence in the country, would be a litigation nightmare. It would be extremely hard to implement, and a large majority of the responsibility will likely fall on states and localities. Right now, resources are minimal for any kind of wide-sweeping change, especially of this magnitude.

More than likely, this will be a grassroots change, that will happen as more and more people become educated on the effects of corporal punishment over time, as well as its overall ineffectiveness.

 

[Lightworker]

^ Yeah I see what you mean about it being a cultural issue. Its just that I can't believe that it happens in a country that is meant to embody the ideals set out in the various laws on human rights.

I know its hard to work any new laws in, moreso ones that might go against a large majority of the population, but that cannot be a reason not to enact such a law. In addition to criminal sanctions, they could also work in widespread sensitization on the negative effects of corporal punishment. So it won't just be about policing the law, but also providing parents with the education they need to prevent them from turning to smacking.

There are countries, I think Belgium, and some other European countries that have succesfully worked out how to implement the provisions of the CRC, including a ban on smacking, and perhaps if America really wanted to (which I know they don't) they could emulate.

Its not impossible, it might be hard, but not impossible.

 

[aragornlover8]

^ Yeah I see what you mean about it being a cultural issue. Its just that I can't believe that it happens in a country that is meant to embody the ideals set out in the various laws on human rights.

I know its hard to work any new laws in, moreso ones that might go against a large majority of the population, but that cannot be a reason not to enact such a law. In addition to criminal sanctions, they could also work in widespread sensitization on the negative effects of corporal punishment. So it won't just be about policing the law, but also providing parents with the education they need to prevent them from turning to smacking.

There are countries, I think Belgium, and some other European countries that have succesfully worked out how to implement the provisions of the CRC, including a ban on smacking, and perhaps if America really wanted to (which I know they don't) they could emulate.

Its not impossible, it might be hard, but not impossible.

Oh I totally agree with you on that. And I would really like to see a change in attitude towards how the country views corporal punishment as a whole. The idea that I have to defend my choice not to spank is beyond me. I think, mainly because of the way our system is here, a grassroots change would be more effective is all. I live in the Southeast; the people here are pretty notorious for not wanting to be told what to do by any sort of higher entity. Grassroots changes tend to work better here, especially in these kinds of cases, because they're more positive and inclusive, I think. There's more of a "We CAN do it" attitude than a "You MUST do it," if that makes sense.

Keep in mind that MADD was a grassroots movement. A woman whose son was killed in a drunk driving accident decided that enough was enough; she campaigned and got other mothers involved who wanted to prevent it from happening again. The influence of MADD was what instigated the increased restriction on the drinking age to 21 for ALL states. Previously, states were allowed to choose their own drinking ages.

A drastic federal change, even if it were emulating other countries, would create a lot of tension. Furthermore, the Tea Party influence in this country has created a very "us or them" attitude with regard to state v federal power. Very few politicians will likely want to touch the issue because of that.

Hey, maybe I should start the grassroots movement.

 

[KittyVentura]

I have a question. What is this book and who are these people? I have never heard of them and so have no idea. What is so bad about the advice that they give? And if it is so bad then why are they still able to sell it?

The book is "To Train Up A Child" by Michael & Debbie Pearl. They are 2 religious nuts who have produced what is effectively a guidebook for how to abuse yoru children under the guise of it being "god's will". They use an excerpt from the bible "He who deny the rod hateth the son" (or similar) to say that god WANTS parents to beat their children into submission and to behave. Not doing so is going against god.

They suggest using whips (the common suggestion is a bit of rubber tubing from a hardware shop) to hurt the child on their bare skin if they do all sorts of things. I.E A 4 month old baby should be whipped if it does not self settle. If it cries more you whip it until it stops crying. That's just an example of what they suggest you do in teh name of god.

The worst thing is that it is marketted as a religious book. I'm athiest myself but I feel offended for other religious people that they are having this stuff published as being linked to their religion.

I have no idea why it is still allowed to be sold. Especially in the UK via Amazon. Baffles me! xx

 

[ShanandBoc]

I have a question. What is this book and who are these people? I have never heard of them and so have no idea. What is so bad about the advice that they give? And if it is so bad then why are they still able to sell it?

The book is "To Train Up A Child" by Michael & Debbie Pearl. They are 2 religious nuts who have produced what is effectively a guidebook for how to abuse yoru children under the guise of it being "god's will". They use an excerpt from the bible "He who deny the rod hateth the son" (or similar) to say that god WANTS parents to beat their children into submission and to behave. Not doing so is going against god.

The scripture reads (Proverbs 13:24) - "The one holding back his rod is hating his son, but the one loving him is he that does look for him with discipline."

“Rod” is used also to symbolize the authority of parents over their children, that the parent is actually responsible before God to exercise control of their children. Loving discipline can include a parent’s use of spanking, According to God’s Word, when the spanking is an expression of and in a manner consistent with love. The Bible, however, helps parents to avoid going to excesses by offering strong counsel against giving way to violent anger. (Prov. 16:32; 25:28; Col. 3:8) If a parent, ignoring this counsel about controlling anger, fiercely hit a child in an outburst of fury, that would be contrary to what God’s Word says about discipline being an expression of love. The Bible in no way endorses angry whippings or severe beatings that bruise and can even cripple a young child. That is child abuse, not loving discipline

These scriptures back up that reasoning......

(Psalm 11:5) -"God himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates."

(Ephesians 6:4) - "And YOU, fathers, do not be irritating YOUR children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of God"

So what they are doing as 'Gods will' actually flys in the face of what the bible actually says

ETA - Its up to the parents digression (as it is for those who dont follow the bible) as to whether they use smacking at all and each child is different, what works for one will not work for another. I personally dont smack Elleah

 

[Lightworker]

Honestly, I never interpreted the "rod" as being an actual rod, or a symbol for smacking. I thought rod here meant positive guidance.

 

[KittyVentura]

That's how I would read it too. But the Pearls have taken it literally and are preaching that in their book. Boooo xx

 

[ShanandBoc]

yeh and ignored the rest of the bible......sigh!!!

 

[ShanandBoc]

Honestly, I never interpreted the "rod" as being an actual rod, or a symbol for smacking. I thought rod here meant positive guidance.

Well ur right, it represents discipline. Just pointing out that the bible doesnt actually say 'do not smack or use physical punishment' but it does claerly forbid loss of temper, anger, violence etc.

Proverbs 16:32 - "Be slow to anger"

Proverbs 25:28 -"Like a city whose walls are broken through is a person who lacks self-control".

Colossians 3:8 - "But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips."

There is a difference between a smack and abuse, even tho i dont smack.

My point is What these people do is strongly against what the bible actually says as far as disciplining a child and is violent and abuse. Not how a loving God teaches us to treat others x

 

[Rolly]

Sad to see in debates section though I never thought that the bible did say this, they are just some sort of cult that have taken things and twisted it. I seen stuff on their page laughing how they beat the dog with the plumbing tube and cant understand who they are allowed to keep their dog after admitting that one. I may not be a religious person but I do not think all Christians beat their kids like this just them and their followers.

 

[AppleBlossom]

Oh my god...

 

[Andypanda6570]

These people are fuc*ing fruitcakes!!!!!!!!! I wish I could have 5 minutes with each one of them one on one I would fu*k up their world. It makes me sick to my core to know children are being hurt right in front of us, why hasn't social services investigated them????????????? OMG this is just awful

 

[ShanandBoc]

why hasn't social services investigated them?????????????

Exactly

 

[aragornlover8]

why hasn't social services investigated them?????????????

Exactly

All of their kids are grown, I'm pretty sure.