Sexist Traditions

[Natsku]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

 

[cookette]

I think anything can be twisted and called sexist if you want. My father "gave me away" and I liked it. Its biblical to leave your father and cleave to your husband. No one owns me. Just following a tradition doesn't mean its automatically sexist or degrades women. Intent is the biggest component in any of it.

 

[curiousowl]

In my religion it's actually traditional for both parents to walk the groom down the aisle and then both parents to walk the bride down! So it's more of a coming together of families than giving the woman from one person to another. I really like the idea and yet for our wedding it wasn't the right tradition with family dynamics, etc. I ended up walking down the aisle with just my dad but I considered it him escorting me, rather than him giving me away. I think everyone has to do what feels right to them.

 

[katherinegrey]

I think we women just look far too much into things these days and are determined to be offended by things that are mostly very innocent.

 

[emyandpotato]

It's not the same, but this reminds me of the debate that Christmas is for Christians only. I think that traditions in their contemporary identity are what they are and can be allowed to shrug off any connotations from their historic meanings. The exceptions perhaps being when something is knowingly offensive.

So I don't think that being given away is sexist now, nor is taking someone's surname.

 

[Natsku]

I don't think people follow traditions like this in a sexist way but to me the sexist connotations are still there and are too strong for me to follow them. I doubt I would have ever thought about it though if my mum didn't tell me that her father didn't give her away - instead bride and groom walked down the aisle together and then it struck me as seeming like a much more gender equal way of doing things.

 

[lilyd]

I don't think the connotations are still there, I don't believe for a minute that anybody at a wedding believes that the bride is the property of her Father and then becomes the property of her husband.

 

[Natsku]

I don't think the connotations are still there, I don't believe for a minute that anybody at a wedding believes that the bride is the property of her Father and then becomes the property of her husband.

Thats why I said that I don't think anyone actually thinks of that at a wedding. The connotations are only there in my mind because I started to think about why that tradition is there.

 

[MrsPear]

This is a bit different but my OH doesn't like wearing rings so he said he didn't want one when we got married. I don't like wearing rings either so I said nor would I. He was very shocked and said a woman has to because of tradition, but the man doesn't.

I don't know much about the tradition of wedding rings except that historically men didn't wear them and women did. So I don't know how sexist it would have been. But I said to my OH that I wasn't really happy to wear it if he didn't have to as neither of us like rings so it doesn't seem fair.

In the end he agreed to have a ring for the ceremony and we both took them off afterwards. I occasionally wear mine if I want to seem a bit older (probably does not work lol) and he lost his anyway.

 

[Button#]

I agree a lot of these traditions have roots in sexist ideology, however I think the important thing is that women have the choice whether to follow these traditions or not. My father walked me down the aisle but in no way was I thought of as his property. I did keep my surname as my OH felt strongly about me not taking his name and I much prefer mine anyway. I have ha some stick for not taking his name but it was our decision as a couple and that's the important thing.

 

[stephx]

I think we women just look far too much into things these days and are determined to be offended by things that are mostly very innocent.

Agree with this completely.

 

[lozzy21]

I'm with you on the wedding thing. I wanted to walk in by myself but my dad would have been gutted since I'm his only child so he's walking me down the aisle and then sitting down. The still ask the father at the beginning of the ceramony if he agrees to the wedding! That is getting left out of our service.

The whole asking a fathers permission thing too, hate it!! It's no ones choice but mine if I get married. OH rang and told my dad what he intended on doing but there was no asking permission.

 

[lilyd]

In tennis, the ladies only play 3 sets as opposed to the men playing 5, I suppose this is down to women being considered a physically weaker sex.

In relationship breakdowns the legal system usually favours women and it is usually they that are awarded custody of children with men getting visitation. This is probably due to sexist traditions of the role of the female in a family. (Obviously there are sometimes reasons to justify this, but it is usually the case regardless of circumstance).

 

[kit10grl]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

Because it was originally based in a sexist tradition and I wanted my marriage to be clearly based on a partnership DH and I walked down the aisle together. I was not given away. I also changed the wording of the vows to make sure they did not include 'love, honor, and obey' As I also feel this is sexist.

I wouldn't look down on anyone who chose to follow the tradition though. As said above I believe the point of feminism is the power to choose. Its the sameas being able to have a career now doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with being a SAHM either.

In tennis, the ladies only play 3 sets as opposed to the men playing 5, I suppose this is down to women being considered a physically weaker sex.

In relationship breakdowns the legal system usually favours women and it is usually they that are awarded custody of children with men getting visitation. This is probably due to sexist traditions of the role of the female in a family. (Obviously there are sometimes reasons to justify this, but it is usually the case regardless of circumstance).

The favouring of women in a breakdown is actually the reversal of a sexist tradition. When women and children were regarded as property if the relationship broke down the woman was thrown in the street with nothing and the father kept the children. Most women were lucky to see their kids again. Thats why it swung so far the other way in the favouring of women.

 

[Natsku]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

Because it was originally based in a sexist tradition and I wanted my marriage to be clearly based on a partnership DH and I walked down the aisle together. I was not given away. I also changed the wording of the vows to make sure they did not include 'love, honor, and obey' As I also feel this is sexist.

I wouldn't look down on anyone who chose to follow the tradition though. As said above I believe the point of feminism is the power to choose. Its the sameas being able to have a career now doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with being a SAHM either.

In tennis, the ladies only play 3 sets as opposed to the men playing 5, I suppose this is down to women being considered a physically weaker sex.

In relationship breakdowns the legal system usually favours women and it is usually they that are awarded custody of children with men getting visitation. This is probably due to sexist traditions of the role of the female in a family. (Obviously there are sometimes reasons to justify this, but it is usually the case regardless of circumstance).

The favouring of women in a breakdown is actually the reversal of a sexist tradition. When women and children were regarded as property if the relationship broke down the woman was thrown in the street with nothing and the father kept the children. Most women were lucky to see their kids again. Thats why it swung so far the other way in the favouring of women.

Yeah thats true, men used to automatically get custody, then they swung to the other extreme but nowadays it seems to be pretty fair (here at least anyway) with primary custody going to the main caregiver whether its the mum or the dad.

 

[Natsku]

I'm with you on the wedding thing. I wanted to walk in by myself but my dad would have been gutted since I'm his only child so he's walking me down the aisle and then sitting down. The still ask the father at the beginning of the ceramony if he agrees to the wedding! That is getting left out of our service.

The whole asking a fathers permission thing too, hate it!! It's no ones choice but mine if I get married. OH rang and told my dad what he intended on doing but there was no asking permission.

I think my dad will be gutted too as I'm his only daughter but I'll remind him that he and my mum walked down the aisle together so thats what I'm doing. And maybe I'll let him perform the ceremony to cheer him up.

 

[Natsku]

In tennis, the ladies only play 3 sets as opposed to the men playing 5, I suppose this is down to women being considered a physically weaker sex.

In relationship breakdowns the legal system usually favours women and it is usually they that are awarded custody of children with men getting visitation. This is probably due to sexist traditions of the role of the female in a family. (Obviously there are sometimes reasons to justify this, but it is usually the case regardless of circumstance).

Thats interesting, I didn't know that.



What about engagement rings? I was surprised to find out that here both men and women wear engagement rings whereas usually its just the woman. A bit more equal in that sense but then again men don't usually get another ring for the wedding.

 

[redlemonade]

For me, I think that women should understand the roots of these traditions but should have the freedom to make choices that they are comfortable with. That's feminism, to me.

I think following traditions 'just because that's proper and how it's always been done' lacks critical thought which makes me sad. This doesn't mean that women who think about these things are 'determined to be offended', as another poster said, but rather they have a passion and an interest in the issues and don't want to partake in something they feel is demeaning to their gender. On the flip side, I also find it very sad that women feel pressured to give up certain traditions because they don't want to be perceived as allowing sexism in their lives. It seems like women can't win sometimes.

Wedding traditions, and indeed marriage itself, is steeped in very sexist connotations. But it doesn't have to be that way anymore. I wasn't keen on being given away because that's a horrible term ('given away') and I often hear the officiant ask 'who gives this woman to this man'? So while maybe some guests aren't necessarily thinking of the bride as property, that connotation is still there in the language, I think. I actually think this, and other wedding traditions, can be modified to suit the couple getting married though and it doesn't have to be sexist. However, it can be difficult to change. I think brides and dads walking down the aisle together can be a lovely way of honouring your father. But these are all individual decisions that, thankfully, I was able to make in my wedding. I wish all women in the world had the same freedom.

 

[Sarahkka]

Both my husband and I walked in to our wedding with our parents and that was chosen to symbolize the coming together of two families. That felt right to us.
I also cannot imagine not thinking about and questioning the traditions around important events like weddings. A ritual event like that should reflect the individuals involved. If that means old school tradish all the way, then good for you. But it's weird to me that someone would not think about the history and meaning behind the rites and celebrations in life that they are participating in.

I think we women just look far too much into things these days and are determined to be offended by things that are mostly very innocent.

Questioning and challenging traditions that were based on centuries of oppression is "determined to be offended by things that were mostly very innocent"? Personally, I find that rather dismissive of women who are trying hard to find a true, authentic way for themselves through life.

 

[lilyd]

It does not matter to me whether I understand the roots of these traditions or not. I will follow traditions (or not) depending on what they symbolise to me, not how they came to be, or what they may symbolise to other people.

I cannot wait for my Dad to 'give me away'. He is an amazing father an I will walk down the aisle with him with pride. He has loved and supported me and my (sometimes bad) choices all my life and he is walking me to marry a man who does, hopefully will always do, the same. Where the tradition started and what it means to others is of no consequence to me. I doubt they will, but if others think that this means that I see myself as my Father/husbands possession then so be it.

Equally, I don't follow the tradition of wearing an engagement ring. Many (if not most) people do, but it is not right for me.

So if I lack critical thought, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I have (and value) the freedom to make my own decisions.