Sexist Traditions

[HBGirl]

I honestly don't care enough to get uptight about old traditions. I know my own strength and so does my husband. That is all that matters. Women can't scream inequality and then kick off about the lack od chivalry. Treat a man like a man and he will treat you like a lady. It swings both ways.

I think it's just about treating individuals with equal respect. I'm not even really sure what it's meant to mean to 'treat a man like a man' so he will 'treat me like a lady'.

Who are the women screaming about both inequality and lack of chivalry that you are talking about? Are they actually the same people or are they two different groups of women who are lumped together into some kind of female hive-mind?

I see women imasculate their parnters in the name of equality but get bent out of shape if they don't give way at a door for her.

I wasn't aware that a discussion of this nature had to have clearly defined parties involved. I was talking generally.

I'm not sure that those women are what you'd call feminists by any definition of the word though. Nothing in feminism is about emasculating men (I'm not even really sure how you do that outside the literal act... Denigrating a man in the name of equality seems like fucking in the name of abstinence).

I never said the word feminist.

 

[BlueWater]

One thing that bugs me is honourifics/titles. Once males become teenagers they are "Mr" their whole lives, unless they earn some other title like "Dr" or "Rev". Women are supposed to be "Miss" until married and then "Mrs" after marriage (unless she has earned another title like "Dr" or "Rev". For women, everyone is supposed to know her marital status by looking at her name, while with men it is a mystery.

Now there is the "feminist"Ms, which I use. To me it means "none of your business", but I think many people associate it with being divorced.

Well men used to be called Master but that was only to distinguish boys and young men from adult men so not quite the same really.

Thats what I like about Finland though, you never really hear anyone say Mr or Mrs or Miss (the Finnish versions obviously) as the old formal ways of greeting and addressing people have mostly died out.

So much so, I've actually considered writing "Mrs" on job application forms rather than "Miss"
I do believe there can be some discrimination in the work place, where you're discriminated if you're young.
Because "Miss" is seen as your young, and young means your immature, and have lack of work place experience.

Doing my degree, I have noticed that some Europe countries, are totally "ahead" of England.

 

[louandivy]

I honestly don't care enough to get uptight about old traditions. I know my own strength and so does my husband. That is all that matters. Women can't scream inequality and then kick off about the lack od chivalry. Treat a man like a man and he will treat you like a lady. It swings both ways.

I think it's just about treating individuals with equal respect. I'm not even really sure what it's meant to mean to 'treat a man like a man' so he will 'treat me like a lady'.

Who are the women screaming about both inequality and lack of chivalry that you are talking about? Are they actually the same people or are they two different groups of women who are lumped together into some kind of female hive-mind?

I see women imasculate their parnters in the name of equality but get bent out of shape if they don't give way at a door for her.

I wasn't aware that a discussion of this nature had to have clearly defined parties involved. I was talking generally.

What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[BlueWater]

I always view these things as a personal choice and as long as we have the freedom to make this choice without any form of repercussion then we are in a better world. But if u look at it from the other side I think feminism as such takes too much and in return sometimes men can get a raw deal (not saying that there are women out there not getting the same raw deal I'm just purely throwing a spanner in the works) I can honestly say this with experience. Some of you may have talked about letting their children wear girls clothes if they are a boy eg and being gender neutral. I don't choose to do this. My lo is defo a boy in every sense but we challenge his view of sexism everyday. How? My oh is a sahd, does majority of cleaning and always cooks (i can't ) it's this action that I would much rather have instilled on my children rather then giving him a doll to play with. I honestly don't think it happens often enough. I'm not saying all sahm should get to work and roll reverse but my son certainly doesn't see me try and raise him and keep a tidy home and work ft. He sees us as a team. My oh hates going to groups, there are no sahd groups and he is always pushed aside when he has gone. Mothers have kept their children away from him. I know this happens, I have seen the nursery teacher is a male threads and the amount of mums who don't want them their children near them. How often do you see a male nurse? How often do you see a male midwife (mid husband if u will?) hey even the name suggest women only. It was a male who delivered my son btw too. I guess I sometimes find t hard to talk about the issue of weddings eg when there are still bigger issue as such. We should b free to make our decision based on what we think is right.. For us.. And not be Penelised on that decision

In regards to being gender neutral. I mean I agree with what you have said.

But, as part of my degree, I looked at the difference between Sweden and England. Swedish children grow up, in schools are taught about gender neutralism, for example the traditional roles we consider "man's" role or "women's" are seen as EVERYONE'S roles.

This is taught to Swedish children in school.

Which, if you look at those working in day cares/ nurseries with the under 5's. I think it's fair to say men make up about 1% if that, of workers in England. Whereas in Sweden it's at least 5%.

Could it be that our school system doesn't promote this gender neutralism?

Also another thing that gets me is, in a mostly female work place (Nursery Nursing)
I sit through 2 years of college (a level 3 qualification) top it up with a degree done P/T whist working F/T in said nursery (a level 7 qualification), further my knowledge, which takes a further 6 months, (Still working F/T) and gives me a "Early Years Teacher Status", offered a Leader role at my current nursery..... and the rate I'm offered an hour.... wait for it..... £7 per hour!

But hang on ^^ that job is exactly the job I was doing as a level 3 where I got £6.7 an hour, plus that job will have ADDED responsibility, the same level as management.

On the other side, my OH, a painter, has basic qualifications, has more or less same experience as me. And he gets £10 an hour - minimum!

Now don't get me started on plumbers and electricians!

My point with that is, in the work place, a "typical" man's job pays you more than a "typical" women's job.

 

[BlueWater]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

I haven't read the husband name thread. But......
I know in the Muslim culture, the wife doesn't take the husband's name. She keeps her own last name (which was her dad's) a belief that the women never "belongs" to anyone other than her father.

On a different note, when my OH's mom and dad got married, they decided to keep the women's name. So my OH's dad changed his name to his wife's! Something to do with he didn't like his last name!

 

[Natsku]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

I haven't read the husband name thread. But......
I know in the Muslim culture, the wife doesn't take the husband's name. She keeps her own last name (which was her dad's) a belief that the women never "belongs" to anyone other than her father.

On a different note, when my OH's mom and dad got married, they decided to keep the women's name. So my OH's dad changed his name to his wife's! Something to do with he didn't like his last name!

My OH is considering taking my name. He has no attachment to his name as its not his real one (he changed his name when he was 18)

 

[lhancock90]

I do see the sexism in many things. Including wedding traditions but what's important to me is that I have the choice to decide whether I want to include them, follow them or cut them out. That to me, is what's most important.

 

[supertabby]

I think there's still differences between the sexes in many ways that could be considered negative but certainly in the UK a lot of perceived sexism we do actually have a choice over. For example you don't have to have your father give you away at your wedding, nor do you have to take your husband's name.

The media makes a big deal about the pay gap between men and women but this is less about men being paid more to do the same job and more about the differences between career choices that large majorities make (admittedly often driven by male instinct to "provide" and females choosing roles that fit in with family life - but those roles can and are increasingly reversing). A woman has the option in today's world (in western world at least) to go for any job she wants - she can be a doctor, soldier, prime minister, jobs that a few decades ago were male roles only. And while a woman is still at risk of encountering some sexist attitudes in such careers I think male nurses and childcare staff experience greater sexism.

For me much of the old sexual discrimination of days gone by is dead or dying - if you think to the days of suffrage and how much the world has changed, I think we're doing well that our biggest worry in this thread is the symbolism behind wedding traditions (that are optional anyway). I'm not saying we shouldn't think about those symbols and question them (and don't know about other denominations but CofE has long sinced dropped "obey") but I think it's down to interpretation and I would not judge anyone for choosing for/against those traditions for themselves. We have the choice and that's what's important.

For me personally there's two big real feminist issues going on today - the wider global situation where not all countries have the same equal rights for women as we do in the UK, USA, Aus, NZ and most of Europe. Secondly while we've tackled many legal rights in the western world we are putting it all to shame by objectifying women more than ever before - the sexualisation of women in the media scares me. It's become more overt than ever and makes me sad that a girl can possess the talent to go to uni and become a scientist or astronaut or be a caring and strong role model as a mother but desperately aspires to be like the bikini clad girls in a Robin Thicke video.

 

[Caite]

I agree that men who work in traditionally female roles have a tougher time in the workplace. When I was working as a nurse, if I went in to change a man who had been incontinent, or to get him washed or whatnot, the fact that he was male and I was female was not even mentioned. Even if there were two of us women changing him, it was never brought up. But, if I asked a male nurse or HCA to help me, sometimes the patients, the older women especially, would be horrified, and some would specifically ask not to have them, which is a little bit rude, I think.

However, whilst women do officially have the same opportunities etc in the work place that men do, I sometimes think that, for roles such as management, men have better chances. The number of male nurses in management roles and senior management roles is completely disproportionate to the number of male nurses there are, even just looking at the hospital I work in, you can see that. I think one of the nursing journals (Nursing Standard or Nursing Times) looked in to this, nationally, at some point in the last couple of years.

 

[Lina]

The husband's name thread got me thinking, this post in particular -

Taking your husband's last name is not old-fashioned nor is it derived from the same sexist traditions that viewed women as a piece of property to pass from a father to a husband. Why is it different? Because it is now a choice. The formal address should update to reflect changing values and customs, I think.
As a feminist, I would never consider another woman as somehow less emancipated because she chose to take her husband's last name. Feminism is about supporting each other in the right to choose and supporting each other in working towards changes at all levels that reflect and uphold those rights.

I was wondering what people think about other traditions that derive from sexist attitudes. The big one that came to my mind is the tradition of the father giving away the bride at a wedding. That stems from the old idea that women are property that first belong to their father and then to their husband and although I doubt anyone thinks of that when they see it at a wedding I know that I won't be letting my father give me away when I get married.

I haven't read the husband name thread. But......
I know in the Muslim culture, the wife doesn't take the husband's name. She keeps her own last name (which was her dad's) a belief that the women never "belongs" to anyone other than her father.

On a different note, when my OH's mom and dad got married, they decided to keep the women's name. So my OH's dad changed his name to his wife's! Something to do with he didn't like his last name!

This is simply untrue. In Islam women and men keep their fathers name simply for lineage recognition purposes. Unlike the historical concept of "giving brides away" having its roots in ownership, a woman is never owned nor given away in the same sense in Islam.

 

[Bex84]

I am fairly feminist but don't have a chip on my shoulder about the past, by that I mean for example I have a friend who is black and he went on and on at me and others I went to university about how white people owed him as his family had been slaves, he held a deep grudge for it and blamed anyone who was white, despite the fact my families origins on both sides were agricultural labourers or servants so not really in the position to own slaves. We are not responsible for our ancestors actions just as they were products of their times. My father walked with me up the aisle, he did not give me away, I took my husbands name as when we had a family I wanted the same name and for me surname was passed down the male line of my family anyway. I see gender inequalities both ways, working as a primary school teacher I saw male counterparts fast tracked even when not good teachers in order to have good statistics of male teachers, when I applied for teacher training, one training provider had actually written male candidates encouraged. I have experience sexism when I was pregnant by very insensitive comments. My sisters has also been asked when a male candidate tried it on what she had done to encourage it and what she had been wearing, she had been polite and wearing uniform. I have noticed a real come back of children at young age who I have taught saying they cant like certain colours or toys etc as for boys/girls. I always turned around and said my favourite colour was blue and it was fine to like whatever you like. With my own daughter I have had several people keep commenting I don't dress her in pink all the time and she has what toys she likes. My lo is encouraged to follow her own interests. I do think that what our mothers and so on had to go through was a lot more. I am a sahm and I think certain people I know find that un feminist. I think for me its about fighting against it in your own life but not holding a grudge for something which is not your hurt to have.

 

[Bex84]

I did study a lot of gender history at university, I think the power certain women had is often underestimated much to the detrement of their memories and how they changed the world around them, rather than the woman been portrayed as someone weak. Even the lower classes women were able to change their own life's within the private sphere

 

[HBGirl]

I honestly don't care enough to get uptight about old traditions. I know my own strength and so does my husband. That is all that matters. Women can't scream inequality and then kick off about the lack od chivalry. Treat a man like a man and he will treat you like a lady. It swings both ways.

I think it's just about treating individuals with equal respect. I'm not even really sure what it's meant to mean to 'treat a man like a man' so he will 'treat me like a lady'.

Who are the women screaming about both inequality and lack of chivalry that you are talking about? Are they actually the same people or are they two different groups of women who are lumped together into some kind of female hive-mind?

I see women imasculate their parnters in the name of equality but get bent out of shape if they don't give way at a door for her.

I wasn't aware that a discussion of this nature had to have clearly defined parties involved. I was talking generally.

What do you mean by this? I'm genuinely curious.

I mean exactly that. Not sure how else to explain it.

 

[louandivy]

But what do you mean when you say they have been emasculated?

Also I can't remember who said it but the reason why men don't get treated equally in more 'feminine' careers is because of sexism! Traditionally female roles are seen as weaker, feminism affects everyone there is nothing extreme about fundamentally advocating equal rights, it's so simple.

 

[HBGirl]

Well, the women belittle them, put them down and make fun of them and in the same breath expect them to dote on her.

I don't believe in feminism because I don't see the sexes as equal. We are too different to be equal. I don't want to do "man jobs" and my DH doesn't want to do "women jobs". It works for us.

 

[kit10grl]

You only see the jobs as man or women jobs because society has told you that's what they are though? Its a job it doesn't have a gender.

Looking after a patient is a job, feeding a child is a job. Nothing about the task has anything that makes it gender specific. (ok unless your breastfeeding) Its perception that made it mans or womans work. Thats all.

And also the example of emasculation works both ways. I have also seen men behave the same way to women. Its actually abuse not emasculation. I agree emasculation does exist but this example isn't it.

 

[Larkspur]

Well, the women belittle them, put them down and make fun of them and in the same breath expect them to dote on her.

Sorry to belabour the point, but what's specific about the belittling that makes it 'emasculation'? I mean, are they saying, "You're stupid, you're useless, you can't do anything right?" Because that's just straight-up denigration, those words can be used against either sex. Or is it more, "You're a useless man, stop crying like a little girl, you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself a father?" Because those are stereotypes based on old (I would say outdated) gender stereotypes and I think feminism actually works against those.

I don't believe in feminism because I don't see the sexes as equal. We are too different to be equal. I don't want to do "man jobs" and my DH doesn't want to do "women jobs". It works for us.

And that's totally fine - no feminist wants to make you do a 'man job' or make your OH do a 'woman job' (whatever you think those might be). But do you think that women who DO want to do 'man jobs' or men who want to do 'women jobs' should be allowed to without being made ashamed of it? That's the equality feminists are looking for, not everyone having to make the same choices.

 

[hayz_baby]

But what do you mean when you say they have been emasculated?

Also I can't remember who said it but the reason why men don't get treated equally in more 'feminine' careers is because of sexism! Traditionally female roles are seen as weaker, feminism affects everyone there is nothing extreme about fundamentally advocating equal rights, it's so simple.

Not when a woman says that they are afraid the male nursery teacher is a peadophile.. That's the general assumption..

My point with my thread was more equlaity isn't there and will never be as there are some very sexist thoughts and not necessarily the thoughts that are generally assumed with sexism.. That it exists and it doesn't just affect women.

Another part that made me think is the treatment of women rape victims..
If ur house was burglared and it went to court the defence wouldn't stand there and go on how u had it coming, that ur iPhone was left on the window sill I'm plain view, that you forgot to fully lock your window. Why is it that rape victims are criticised? You probably drank too much, ur dress was a little short, etc.
This also really gets to me

 

[stephx]

Well, the women belittle them, put them down and make fun of them and in the same breath expect them to dote on her.

I don't believe in feminism because I don't see the sexes as equal. We are too different to be equal. I don't want to do "man jobs" and my DH doesn't want to do "women jobs". It works for us.

I do agree with this. I absolutely think we should have equal rights but far to many misconceive this as treating men and woman as the same and diminishing gender as purely 'socially driven'. I think gender stereotypes have their roots for a reason, and shouldn't be diminished- we just have the choice now to go against the grain; and any women in a traditional 'man job' should have equal rights to do so.

 

[BlueWater]

Another part that made me think is the treatment of women rape victims..
If ur house was burglared and it went to court the defence wouldn't stand there and go on how u had it coming, that ur iPhone was left on the window sill I'm plain view, that you forgot to fully lock your window. Why is it that rape victims are criticised? You probably drank too much, ur dress was a little short, etc.
This also really gets to me

This is exactly what I was going to lead on to.
Earlier in this thread, I'm sure I read that women were treated like poop back in the olden days.

But now, in regards to rape and domestic violence, there is still the notion that 'the victim did something - the victim deserves it' - may it be the way they dressed, or how they spoke to the man etc.

Now where does this idea come from? It's as if society and the media have actually pointed the finger to the victim. Society and media has 'blamed' the victim - usually the victim is a women.

In addition, in court cases etc., society also tends to 'favour' the women. Yes sometimes the women has done nothing wrong. But I've seen it were the women has actually made things up, and society and/or the media, would believe the women.